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#497989 - 12/02/11 06:35 PM 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal?
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
I have been wrestling with this question for a long time.

Doug Batchelor believes the 144,000 will be a literal number.

Stephen Bohr, Steve Wohlberg, Walter Veith believe the number is symbolic.

I was reading Luis F. Were's book "The 144,00 Sealed! When? Why?"

I was surprised to learn he also believes the number is symbolic. The problem is, none of them deal with or discuss Ellen White's statement that goes like this:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. (EW, p. 14)


It would seem strange to me that she would emphasize the "in number" part if she also believed the number to be symbolic.

What are your thoughts on this?

_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#497998 - 12/02/11 07:00 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Dr. Rich Offline
RIP Dr Rich, you are missed


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 4008
Loc: California
There are three groups that find salvation as found in Rev. 17:14. The first group are the "Priests" or the 144,000 as found in Rev. 1:6 and 5:10. These are also called the Bonds Servants for Jesus Christ as we see in Rev. 1:1; 7:3 and 19:5. They are also called the "first fruits" as found in Rev. 14:4-5 and they are perfect as they have overcome sin as we see in Rev. 3:4, 7-13. Yes, they are numbered and you and I can't change that number.

The second group is the "Kingdom" as we see above and they are the 5 wise virgins as found in Matt. 25:1-13 and in Rev. 1:6 and 5:10. They are bride's maids because they are servanst for the Bride, meaning that they help get the bride ready during the time of trouble as found in Rev. 7:9-17. The bride is the numberless multitude from every nation and race who, because of the works (righteous acts--Rev. 19:8) become saved during the time of trouble.

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#498000 - 12/02/11 07:09 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
cheddar Offline
Broke the 400 mark

Registered: 05/22/11
Posts: 583
Loc: Atlanta GA
Literal.

Numbers are symbolic in the bible - take for instance the number seven which is usually symbolic for God or perfection.

The number six which is usually symbolic for man or imperfection.

But that doesn't change the value of the number - a six is still a six not twelve or fifty or some unknown value.

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#498003 - 12/02/11 07:13 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Luis F. Were said that Ellen White said the 144,000 will form a perfect square, and then he said that it is absolutely impossible for a literal 144,000 people to form a "perfect square" as she states.

What are your thoughts?


Edited by Lysimachus (12/02/11 07:13 PM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#498015 - 12/02/11 07:42 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
I don't know why a 144,000 would be impossible to form a perfect square? Must be a math problem, anyway....

Man I have heard SO many things about this esteemed group, of whom I aspire to be a member of. I'm still leaning toward a literal number myself. I flat out reject some of what I've heard concerning them. Lysimachus, when you figure it out, get back to me on it. :)

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#498025 - 12/02/11 08:10 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Gibs Offline


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 4620
Loc: Ohio
The chapter starts out telling us 12,000 are sealed from each of the 12 tribes and that gives us the 144,000,

now 144,000 divided by 4 gives us 36,000 on each of the four sides of a perfect square. If you want you could figure it like this 3 tribes of 12,000 on each side would make you 36,000 on each side, and prove your math and 4 times 36,000 eguals our 144,000 and yes it is a literal number, we must take it literal first and if it don't fit then you try it symbolic, but what is the need.

He then is shown a great multitude.

Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The 144,000 are called His Servants, Re 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I submit they are "His Servants the Prophets" for the last time and they all may be sealed now and going forth and no doubt few will hear them.

That is my take or input and I pray all my find contact with one of them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

_________________________
A Freeman In Jesus Christ

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#498028 - 12/02/11 08:18 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
So is it a hallow square or solid square?

You seemed to describe a hallow square, with 36,000 on each side. But what if all the middle is filled in, in a perfect block square?

I wonder what kind of square she was meaning.
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#498029 - 12/02/11 08:21 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
A couple of things on that. I don't believe the 144,000 or anyone for that matter is "sealed" as we think of the "sealing". In the big picture, a future event that has not yet happened.

Rather than just a few that will hear them, I see a "great multitude" that will hear and accept the message! The glass is half full....

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#498040 - 12/02/11 08:52 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
I encourage you guys to buy the book "The 144,000 Sealed! When? Where?" by Louis F. Were.

While he may be wrong on the number being symbolic, the insight he gives is very advanced, with a lot of Ellen White. He really gets into the importance of striving to be a part of that number. He also dispels the myth that the 144,000 are preachers that go out to win the "great multitude". It's only 6 dollars!

The 144,000 Sealed! When? Where?" by Louis F. Were



Edited by Lysimachus (12/02/11 08:54 PM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#498045 - 12/02/11 09:05 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Thanks for your input Dr. Rich, Cheddar, Gibbs, and ClubV12!

You guys have given me stuff to think about as I continue my study on this matter. :)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#498049 - 12/02/11 09:37 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
"He also dispels the myth that the 144,000 are preachers that go out to win the "great multitude"."

I concur with that statement. I've never felt entirely comfortable with this idea that a "144,000" preachers will be the only "number" giving the last great message of the Sabbath to the world. I DO believe that following the shaking the "empty pews" will be filled with a LOT of "newbies" who come into the church to replace those shaken out.

Now as to whether those who come in at that time could be considered a "great multitude", I'm not sure that fits the definition. But I DO know, that for a time, the church pews WILL be filled again, the church WILL stand, until we are all forced to flee or it gets totally weird for the whole country. That time has not yet come, don't bring it on yourself before the time.

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#498062 - 12/02/11 09:51 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
12tribes Offline
Past the 700 posts

Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 772
Loc: Australia
While I believe it is a literal number I can understand why some say it is symbolic also there are two groups in the last days that will be saved the 144, 000 and the great multitude. I think it is more about the character of the 144, 000
_________________________
Galatians 3:29
(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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#498096 - 12/02/11 10:56 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: ClubV12]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted By: ClubV12
"He also dispels the myth that the 144,000 are preachers that go out to win the "great multitude"."

I concur with that statement. I've never felt entirely comfortable with this idea that a "144,000" preachers will be the only "number" giving the last great message of the Sabbath to the world. I DO believe that following the shaking the "empty pews" will be filled with a LOT of "newbies" who come into the church to replace those shaken out.

Now as to whether those who come in at that time could be considered a "great multitude", I'm not sure that fits the definition. But I DO know, that for a time, the church pews WILL be filled again, the church WILL stand, until we are all forced to flee or it gets totally weird for the whole country. That time has not yet come, don't bring it on yourself before the time.


More like meeting in small places, in small bundles and small companies scattered everywhere. I doubt we'll be meeting in Church buildings by then. That will be too much out in the open as the persecution is upon us. tongue

Ellen White talks about that a lot actually, where the loud cry will bring in people from all over and these people will be meeting in small companies here and there and everywhere.


Edited by Lysimachus (12/02/11 10:57 PM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#498112 - 12/02/11 11:40 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
monty Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 105
I have always liked the description in the parable in Matt 22. In vs. 9&10 "invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.....and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good, so the wedding hall was filled with guests. RSV How will there ever be time to print all the needed church manuals to govern all these new people in these scattered bodies of people? I'm sure it is being worked on.

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#498127 - 12/03/11 12:10 AM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
"More like meeting in small places, in small bundles and small companies scattered everywhere."

That time will come, don't run ahead of the Lord on it! :)

Actually it is Sister White that says the church will be filled by those who come in replacing those who were shaken out. I do believe this is the literal church that exists currently in a town near you. The visible church, the one many of us now attend on Sabbath. The same one where the Pastor will be preaching that the congregation should accept these Sunday laws, for God and Country! There will be a short time (or a long time, I won't put a number on it) where the church will certainly appear to have completely fallen! I mean how much worse could it get than the Pastor asking the members to start worshiping on Sunday!!! And the General Conference "apparently" in agreement with that!!!

Sister White speaks of "open air meetings" in town, where FORMER Adventists will be reaching out to the town folk, in total agreement with them over the Sunday issue. ADVENTIST LEADERS mind you holding these meetings! With a large attendance of FORMER Adventists to support and encourage them.

By these means the Sunday issue will be brought to bear upon all in a most clear and convincing manner. More will leave the church, more will come in to replace them. The "newbies" won't be looking for some hidden and little known "home church" they will be looking for the address of the Seventh-day Adventist church and WILL determine to come next Sabbath. Some churches will completely go out, I believe, most will remain, with just a few to keep the lights on. Waiting for those newbies to show up, and they will all be perfectly united. Will you be there to unite with them? Or hiding in your home....

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#498134 - 12/03/11 12:26 AM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: ClubV12]
monty Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 105
"For where two or or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them" Matt. 18:20 ..........Yes even in your own home where you faithfully worship for reasons not accepted or understood by others eager to judge.

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#498137 - 12/03/11 12:33 AM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
Sister White's take on this verse, often used by those who wish to depart Gods true church on earth, is in direct referrence to those in jail, or in isolated conditions or in some wilderness area. Even there, under those harsh conditions, were only two or three can gather, alone, even there, God will bless them. And accept them as a part of His church.

This verse does NOT infer that it is OK to leave Gods organized, visible church, the one right down the block from you and go off and start doing your own thing because you see all the bad people in the steeple. When you do that, you not only "scatter" the people of God, your an "off shoot" in every sense of the word.

"....by others eager to judge."

Those others, eager to judge? That would be THOSE who left, after "judging" Gods people and finding them "short of their personal goals" of sanctification.


Edited by ClubV12 (12/03/11 12:35 AM)

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#498218 - 12/03/11 11:47 AM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Gibs Offline


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 4620
Loc: Ohio
It is wake up time to all who will hear. We are nearer the end than most realize and those of you take EGW's council she has stated when the time does come most will be putting it too far in the future. Those of you who care not for her council just read the signs around you, it's heading fast for a firestorm of evil fighting and slaughering and destruction like this world has never known.

For the last roundup why wouldn't God seal and send out a mere 144,000 His Servants the prophets to give the last warning and yes they are to be chimed in with by an innumerable multitude.

Yes some are on the scene now and I believe I've been hearing a few of them. They are giving out the gospel truth of salvation to a dying world and warnings in all areas. You must know the truth yourself or you would not recognize them. It's like His sheep know the true Shepherds voice. The quality that they know it by is the TRUTH.

The pure untainted Gospel is the biggy here, untainted with error weaved in is the must.

Then the message is get ready, get ready quickly as the end is here and all is soon to end.

I want to tell all, we all of this life are now short timers and the saved alone will be the long timers hereafter .

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
_________________________
A Freeman In Jesus Christ

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#498224 - 12/03/11 12:00 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
Interesting post Gib's.

Do you consider yourself sealed now? From an earlier post I take it you do not, at this time, consider yourself among the 144,000 right now. But I could be wrong, do you consider yourself among the 144,000 today? Do you think there are indeed some living people, right now, who ARE a part of that group (and thus sealed)?

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#498251 - 12/03/11 01:01 PM Re: 144,000 Number - Symbolic? or Literal? [Re: Lysimachus]
Gibs Offline


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 4620
Loc: Ohio
ClubV12,

Be careful not to read into what I write that I claim to be any thing but a true and dedicated follower of Jeus Christ. I am intent on doing His will for me in every respect.

I think EGW said the 144,000 would know who they are, well I don't know that so I would say I am not one of that number.

I am driven though I believe by His Spirit.

Yes I do believe some of the 144,000 are on the scene now. We are now at a very serious time and all need to take a close look at the position taken especially of their salvation. Presumption is no good it must be founded on the Rock and His word of truth.

Faith founded on presumption will fail, it must be on the Truth, Jesus Christ.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
_________________________
A Freeman In Jesus Christ

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