Ya can't have one without the other, they are one.

1 John 4:4

So, Gibs, what is your answer as to the fate of those who never hear the gospel?

Excellent question Bravus, I'd be interested in the response to that. I know a few theologians have commented on this. If I'm not mistaken somewhere in the NT Jesus makes a remark about the Jews and the Gentiles, and I think it has a bearing on this. I'm gonna see if I can find it.

I would agree Gibs, but the question is, why is Jesus the way, truth and life? In what way are they "one"?

Is this something you have ever meditated on?

Clearly it is talking about Jesus death opening up the way to eternal life.

The character aspect is received after entering the gate through sanctification, not before.

If that is understood there is no difficulty here.

Not sure I fully agree twilight, doesn't the Bible say something about that are characters are all we take to heaven?

Don't know about that pk. But EGW says something along these lines:
That the Father will behold not your faulty character.

Praise God - He sees NOT my character - for if He did - I would not be headed to heaven.

Hi Pk. :-)

Do you get the Holy Spirit because you are sanctified?

Or do you get the Holy Spirit because of what Jesus did and then you are sanctified over time?

Praise God pk - sanctification is the work of a lifetime. And it will never get done till we see His face at the Second Coming.

This is what I believe -

I believe that ALL of the saved will need their characters reformed or changed. That will be done in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the second coming. We will THEN be fit for Heaven. Not before.

The question remains open: are those who never hear of Christ saved? And if so, using what criterion?

Christ promises to draw ALL unto Him. I have to believe that includes even those who have not "heard" of Him. He instills in them what is needed. And He and Only He knows what the response of their heart IS.

The Bible clearly outlines that ALL people know of God, yet not all people acknowledge God.

So many know God without a direct revelation of Christ, because God by nature reveals Himself to every man.

So all have a knowledge of Him, but not all acknowledge Him.

Twilight do you think the HS is working on people who have never heard of the bible or scriptures?

So many that do not have a direct knowledge of Christ, still respond to Him and follow His leading.

They just do not have the advantage of knowing Christ.

Yes Teresa, the Bible clearly teaches that in the book of Romans.

We agree.

So would that explain why they end up with the character of Jesus?

(Sometimes, depending on.... re something else.)

Of course, the Spirit works on all, not just those that worship Jesus with the full knowledge of that worship.

The way to Heaven is marked with both failure and forgiveness.
That is universal.

Amen Brother

This topic will now continue without further commercial interruption...

Bravus; in speaking re "the way to heaven;" this is a very pertinent question. There is a quote that I recall where the writer says how every right impulse comes from Christ; and I take that to mean all faith back grounds, and non faith back grounds.

The same writer also says how if people follow whatever light they do have; then, no matter how little the light; they are in a better relation to God than would be someone with great light, but does not follow that great light.

So yes; I think that if we make it to heaven ourselves; we will be VERY SURPRISED at who is there, and why.

OA I have to agree with your statement, especially the last paragraph.

I may be wrong, but IMHO I think that even if you have all the earthly knowledge available, if you are a double PhD, whatever; if you don't have a strong, loving, up front and personal relationship with our Lord and Savior, Heaven may be only a dream. Jesus loved the little children because they could love Him ... not for their knowledge.

That's not to say that we should not study to show ourselves approved.

Just early morning thoughts......

Phd is "Plumbing Heating & Drainage," right?

God’s Delight

[Please read the following texts...]
Ezekiel 33:11
Micah 7:18
Mark 1:11 (There are at least six similar references in Matthew, Luke and 2 Peter.)
Galatians 1:15.
1 Tim. 1:15. God delights to save the foremost of sinners, through His grace.
Col. 1:19, 20. Verse 16 further describes the ‘all’ in question.
Ephesians 1:9, 10. The complement of the eras is further described in 1 Cor. 15:24-28. Once all is headed up in Christ, He will subject Himself to God, that the Father might be All in all. This universal reconciliation is God’s delight - Ps. 135:6.

His glory = His character

To reflect His glory is to... ?

Quote omitted:Gail's note- Sorry, Naomi, you can't quote here! Tom may up me on this and remove the one below, too... :)

To reflect His glory is as the moon is to the sun.

Paul says we are all reflecting the Lord's glory.


Not a quote now! ;-) - TW

:) No problem ... have to be retrained on some things. Or, perhaps read the instructions LOL

FYI, I attempted to remove the quote and it wouldn't allow me to do so.