I can find no such quote. Unless a citation is proffered, this is only rumor-mongering ... which is not highly ranked in the search for truth..

I believe it's a fairly common quotation known to many who read her books - in fact I recall seeing it repeated on this forum - possibly posted by myself, maybe John317. I don't have those books with me presently, but since some have complained about removal of material from the latest EGW CD or database, searches may be less effective. Keywords would be spiritualism, ministers, Satan, mind. Might be in Selected Messages? or the Testimonies?

It seems that EGW described that their minds had been altered or possibly rendered less capable of discernment.

I can find NO EGW quote that **remotely** refers to what you have said. Please, you obviously have access to a computer and to the writings of EGW....give a cited quotation. You are the one who has made the charge, ergo, it is incumbent upon you to provide the proof.

A number of characters in the Bible - men and women of God - participated in pagan life....and afterwards were used by God, Who apparently wasn't perturbed by their past life experiences. Samson comes to mind. And David. And Ruth. And Rahab. And Asnat. And Aaron...


not true..if anything, one who has had previous experience with the occult is by far more capable of discerning an occultic inroad than someone who has no experience....

"less capable of discernment"?????? oh please... it's just the opposite.

Hi Pam, couldn't find much online.

Maybe someone else recalls the quotation or even the principle.

I did most EGW research using the 3-Volume Index.

(P.S. thanks for checking)

No one is completely unbiased. Nonetheless, who is more "well-placed to identify problems": a student who has actually taken the classes in question, or a person who is relying on second- or third-hand information?



I'm sorry, but your description of Adventist higher education bears no resemblance whatsoever to my experience, neither at Southern nor at Andrews. And lest you think I've been brainwashed in Adventist schools from a young age, I was homeschooled K-12.

Frankly, what you've written strikes me as a very prejudiced and pessimistic take on Adventist education. The seminary is not a place of "indoctrination." On the contrary, students are encouraged, required even, to research and study for themselves. Furthermore, sola scriptura, which has always been a cornerstone of Adventism, is frequently emphasized at the seminary. I find it odd that if the seminary professors were trying to indoctrinate their students, they should so strongly urge the importance of deep personal Bible study and a close personal relationship with Jesus.

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know why AU students and faculty, as well as SDA pastors have been encouraged to go to a nearby retreat center (run by Adventists), where a labyrinth is part of the "centering" for "experiencing God"... And if you don't think there is such a place, here's an aerial photo of it.. you'll have to work pretty hard to argue that the use of a labyrinth isn't New Age:

Wow!

Thanks Matthew. If the profs were really sold on sola scriptura, they would tell you to clear out, redirect that cash and head home to study your Bible. That's my advice as well. I have seen the results of Adventist seminary education - not pretty.

At one time there were Protestants in the Church. Now there are none.

Matthew, bring your GPS.

Rudywoofs: I haven't heard any SDA pastor or professor at Andrews encouraging people to to through "prayer labyrinths." In fact, when I took the class on biblical spirituality, our professor explicitly warned us against New Age spirituality and Christian spiritual practices drawn from Eastern mysticism and other unbiblical sources. He was AGAINST the sort of thing you are describing. We need to be very careful not to bear false witness against our neighbors when discussing these issues.

Gordon1: Again, you seem to have a very negative view of Adventist education. Ellen White surely did not share your pessimism: "God would not have us in any sense behind in educational work. Our colleges should be far in advance in the highest kind of education. . . . If we do not have schools for our youth, they will attend other seminaries and colleges, and will be exposed to infidel sentiments, to cavilings and questionings concerning the inspiration of the Bible. There is a great deal of talk concerning higher education, and many suppose that higher education consists wholly in an education in science and literature; but this is not all. The highest education includes the knowledge of the word of God, and is comprehended in the words, 'That they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou has sent.' John 17:3" (Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 45).

My professors at Southern and Andrews have taught me to rely on Scripture and Scripture alone for my religious beliefs, because it is God's inspired Word. I'm not here to be indoctrinated; I'm here to learn from those who have gone before me and who can share their experience and wisdom. I find nothing in Scripture to discourage advancing one's education or learning from others; in fact, I find a great deal in support of these things. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2, emphasis supplied).

I'm also here to learn specialized knowledge. Greek and Hebrew are difficult languages to learn; it would be much harder without the aid of a teacher. What about history? Sure, I could read church history on my own, but how much better to have a professor who has studied church history in depth and can point me to important documents and highlight significant historical people, places, and events. And what about biblical exegesis? Preaching? Evangelism? Should I undertake these endeavors on my own, or should I seek the counsel of those with experience? Here's what Ellen White said about this: "In gaining a preparation for the ministry, young men should be associated with older ministers. Those who have gained an experience in active service are to take young, inexperienced workers with them into the harvest-field, teaching them how to labor successfully for the conversion of souls. Kindly and affectionately these older workers are to help the younger ones to prepare for the work to which the Lord may call them. And the young men in training should respect the counsel of their instructors, honoring their devotion, and remembering that their years of labor have given them wisdom" (Gospel Workers, p. 101, emphasis supplied).

I'm sorry, but the seminary is not the place you've described it to be. I would encourage you to visit the seminary sometime. Meet the professors. Talk with them. Ask them questions. I think you'll find them to be very gracious and godly people.

Pam, here are the SOP quotations I recall. I believe there are others too. As an editor, you must be fairly handy with text searches - so don't know how these escaped your view. Possibly those complaints about the new database have some merit.

EGW counsel: Ministers with Spiritualist History

"I have seen that some who have been deceived and led into this error [Spiritualism] will be brought out into the light of truth, but it will be almost impossible for them to get entirely rid of the deceptive power of Spiritualism. Such should make thorough work in confessing their errors and leaving them forever." Early Writings 77-78.

"God will not entrust the care of His precious flock to men whose mind and judgment have been weakened by former errors that they have cherished, such as so-called perfectionism [see appendix.] and Spiritualism, and who, by their course while in these errors, have disgraced themselves and brought reproach upon the cause of truth. Although they may now feel free from error and competent to go forth and to teach this last message, God will not accept them. He will not entrust precious souls to their care; for their judgment was perverted while in error, and is now weakened". Early Writings 101-102.

Bump.

Late the discussion, but has anyone applied these findings to Paul's conversion experience?

Pam, it seems clear that Ellen White said these men were not entrusted of God with the flock due to their weakened minds and judgment. (Early Writings 101-102)

I find it very interesting how Gordon chooses to attack the credibility of the author of The Omega Rebellion, knowing nothing of how God miraculously led him into the truth, how he fled spiritualism forever, never, ever again, even once touching "the unclean thing," or how he was led with amazing providence into the ministry, how for the last thirty five years, never has he for one moment, ever tested, or fooled with this power, how he was prodded for ten years by his head elder, the late Kenneth Holland, editor of the "Signs" before Marvin Moore, to write this book, how the Lord led him to finally begin the project by bringing Ken's gentle voice to his mind during prayer in his church office; a voice that repeated the same worlds Ken spoke to him a hundred times saying, "Rick, You must write a book about all this," how the author began that very moment to gather the materials he needed, and while his desk was covered with those materials, two sight-seeing couples with a day to wander around, as their return flight from London to CA was unexpectedly delayed, decided to sight see on Hilton Head Island for the first time in their lives, how they happened to pass the the church, came in and asked if they might take a few pictures, how one of the two women walked into the author's office a few minutes later and asked, "what are you doing," how the author said he was gathering materials for a long overdue book, when she asked, "what is it about," and he answering, not expecting her to really know what the omega was, saying "the alpha and omega," and how she then said, "OH, we really need a book about that," as she reached out to shake the author's hand and said, "my name is so and so and I am a VP of Pacific Press," and then told me what a wonderful friend Ken Holland was, and spent an hour giving Rick advice he needed to write the book properly, or how this occurrence took place on the very morning Rick began writing The Omega Rebellion, after a wait of ten years, or how after about a year Rick was discouraged because he felt the Lord would never bring such an important message to the church from one little known pastor and that there must be others, so Rick asked the Lord to bring them to him, telling the Lord that he would not search for them or make even one phone call as a test to know that God had called him to write this book, or how the phone began to ring the next day, and how within one week 15 people contacted him, people like Dr Herbert Douglass, Elder Joel Tompkins, Prof. Jack Blanco and a dozen other well known SDA leaders who had been aware of this danger and had been working to expose it for years, or how many of them who were authors themselves told Rick how they now understood why they didn't feel impressed to write a book about this subject - the Lord was having the author write the book while they did other things to warn the church, or how every move forward was by the amazing providence of God because the author chose not to have the book published himself and waited for providence to open every door, and how he waited a year and a half after the book was completed for the Lord to move upon a man in CA to bring the book out, and how the author knew nothing about what was happening, just how the author prayed it would happen, or how this process continued with more and more and more providence at every advancement - enough to write a complete book about.

Now, Gordon, please take some advice from an old man who spent the last thirty five years in ministry and has learned more during the last 6 years writing this book than the 30 previous years.

You chose to discredit the author, knowing nothing about how the Holy Spirit led him, just a little of it described in the very long paragraph above. This was a very dangerous thing to do since there is nothing in the book that warrants such action. Why did you choose to try to discredit the author instead of the book itself? Allow me to share what my life's experience has taught me.

It may be, if you even read the book, that you could not find anything to argue against, using scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy, or possibly you practice this deception yourself and want to continue practicing it, not really caring what these two inspired sources say because like so many others who attack the author, you may want to be friends with Babylon, those churches God called us to separate from, and have gone back to the things in Egypt because the things God's church offers, do not profit you, the same problem God's people had in Isaiah chapter 30, and like most who constantly try to discredit those who bring a message from the Lord.

You may have is the same problem as others who attack people instead of their message, they want to continue to practice this devilish deception, or don't want to disagree with it because their friends who are influential believe in it, or just don't want to say anything that sets them in opposition to those considered the establishment, leaving them no other way to justify themselves than that of attacking the credibility of those who are exposing this deception.

I would ask something of you - why not in your next statement - instead of insulting the Holy Spirit by believing you have the right to attempt to discredit one who God called to the ministry 35 years ago, by taking the Spirit of Prophecy out of context and not realizing that in spite of the many warnings EGW does give about spiritualism, she is never absolute in her counsel when cautioning about those who have been involved in spiritualism. I, like so many others the Lord called to ministry, never - ever discredited the church as those who she cautions us about. The Lord allowed me to remain in spiritualism for a reason, as he did others He called to the ministry. I wanted the truth from day one, and prayed 5 hours a day for it - for 5 years, desiring the truth more than life itself, but the Lord had things for me and others to learn; to learn for this day, so we could intelligently expose this deception. I could tell you many stories of God's protection during the time he allowed me to remain involved in spiritualism. I didn't realize this was happening then, but did after the Lord delivered me from it.

This is why it is so dangerous to make these kind of judgments. Find error first, and discredit the error before feeling the need to discredit the person, possibly because self disagrees with the conclusions they have come too. It may come to discrediting the person, as I did with those who learned spiritualism and brought it back to our schools, above, but not before proof of the danger is established. Show where the book is mistaken? Not on some minor point, like we could all do, even with the Bible, but where the premise is wrong. Tell us how you think it is a proper thing that SDA's should be practicing spiritual formation, and attending Roman Catholic Institutions to learn these mystical practices, bringing this spiritualistic deception back to our colleges to teach our ministerial students, or, how it is proper for our pastors, like those involved in The ONE Project, to hold positions influencing our youth after earning their D. Min degrees at the Babylonian Fox University, under the tutelage of Dr. Leonard Sweet, self proclaimed mystic and leader of the spiritual formation movement. Prove those things proper, instead of discrediting the people God used to expose these spiritualistic deceptions in our church. That would make sense.

Show how the book is wrong in it's conclusions. That would be acceptable in God's eyes, but attacking the author without demonstrating he is wrong in his conclusions, or that they are dangerous, is the same satanic method of silencing God's messengers, Satan has used since sin began. What you are doing by attacking the messengers who are exposing this deception, is just plain wrong.

I beg of you to please, amend your ways, before you drift so far away from the Lord's way of doing things that you are no longer able to see that they are wrong.

Blessings,
Jacksdad

Hi everyone, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist from Portugal; and still, about this subject, I'd like to add to all of your best interest this DVD in the making:
http://returntogodscovenant.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=226220

Thanks Jacksdad. Fascinating backstory!

Can someone out there give me Rick Howard's email address? I have discovered on YouTube a "secular" form of contemplative prayer. It uses no religious discussion, yet it purports to take people to the same state of mind and uses much of the same terminology as used in contemplative prayer. I want to know if Rick has heard about it and what he thinks of it. It is dangerous and a subtle trap of the enemy. It is called ASMR, or Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response. When I stumbled onto it while goofing around in YouTube, some of the videos gave me "head tingles" that I have been experiencing for 30+ years. The tingles are brought on by certain sounds, such as sanding, tapping on various objects, and by the soft, whispering voice of a woman. I will not watch those videos anymore. These ASMR proponents profess things such as astro-projection, hypnosis, and lucid dreaming (being conscious that you are dreaming and able to control the content of those dreams to some extent). It is all mind control. Our people need to be warned about this, also, because an unsuspecting SDA could stumble onto such a website and not realize that it is Satan's enchanted ground - which is spiritualism in all of its blatant and veiled forms. I would appreciate any help in getting in direct contact with Rick Howard. Thanx.

I'll get it for you in the morning.

The only quote I can think of along this line is not about the occult, but about those who have gone deeply into offshoot movements. She says their spiritual judgment is affected ever aftwards. I'll see if I can find the exact quote.

I don't remember anything from her about anyone who has come out of the world having impaired judgment afterwards.

What was perfectionism as understood by Ellen White?





Notice that Ellen White is talking about those who have once known the truth, and then fallen into spiritualism. That calls into question their spiritual discernment is a huge way.

She is not talking about those who have been ensnared with spiritualism without a previous knowledge of truth.

Stop misrepresenting Ellen White's real position on the subject.

I'm not misrepresenting anything. And I stand by what I wrote. It's okay if you don't agree.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't even recall any posts by you on this thread. I was responding to Gordon1 and his misrepresentation of the quote he gave.

sorry, joeb, it was Gordon who made the statement to me... I apologize for the misunderstanding..

It's OK. I've done pretty much the same thing a time or two. So, no biggie. I figured it had to be a misunderstanding of some type like that.