While Jesus was on earth he lived and taught according to God's Law as recorded in the first five books of the Bible (aka Mosaic Law, Torah, or Law of Moses). Is Jesus still a Torah-observant Jew?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Ron, when you say Mosaic Laws, are you saying the Health laws, etc., or the added rules that the Jews added to the Laws? Like how to keep the Sabbath, by not walking more than a mile, put your hankerchief(sp) in your left back pocket and not the right one as you do on the other days of the week! Etc., etc. If you mean the health laws I would say: Yes, if he still lived here!

NO!

Jesus shed his blood on the cross to give us the 'new covenant' which is for all men not just the Jews. I don't have to eat kosher food or grow a beard or sacrifice a lamb every time I sin.

He spoke about faith and love just like all the other disciples did. Every miracle he performed required faith not law-keeping and the few times he did speak about law-keeping were just to win over the unbelieving Jews.

I wish he had. That would have put an end to the useless food rules once and for all.

We're no better if eat and no worse if we don't (1Cor.8:8)

I'm talking about the instructions, commandments, statutes, and laws that God gave to Moses and are written in the Scriptures. The Jewish sages have identified 613 laws written in the Law of Moses.

I'm not talking about the traditional man-made "oral law" or "fence laws" that were added by the Jews.

Cheddar, have you read the 'new covenant' recently? (Jer 31:31-34 quoted in Heb 8:8-12) The actual wording of the 'new covenant' seems to contradict what you said about it.

The 'new covenant' specifically says that the 'new covenant is made "with the house of Judah and the house of Israel".

The 'new covenant' specifically says that that God will write his Law [literally "torah"] on our hearts. It says God will forgive our sins -- it says nothing about changing the definition of sin to make previously sinful behavior no longer sinful.

Because he was in a bad mood that day and didn't want them to eat the good stuff?

Cheddar, which passages of Scripture support your answer?

I haven't found anything in Scripture that would suggest that Jesus would be disregarding any of it.

That makes sense to me. Why would he change?

to both responses. Its bad enough the illnesses we get from the food that God has allowed us to eat, but to eat the meat of the filthiest animals makes no sense whatsoever.

So are you saying that the new covenant is only for literal Jews? I really have a problem with adventists who wrest large portions of scripture and in your case the entire new testament.

1) Paul said that he is not a Jew who is one out outwardly (flesh) but he is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart (Rom. 2:28,29). That’s pretty clear to me. A spiritual Jew can be anyone who lives by faith including literal Jews or gentiles and is someone who has the law of agape written in the heart not the Torah.

2) Peter said that the gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. That the Holy Spirit would purify their hearts by faith. Then he says why tempt God by putting a yoke around their neck which we nor our fathers were able to bear (Acts 15:7-11). Sounds like the same thing you’re trying to do – reject the new covenant and go back to the old.

3) I love how people quote Heb. chap. 8 and omit the last verse – ‘In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away’ ( vs. 13). Sorry, Ron but your precious Torah has waxed old and is ready to vanish away. We don’t have to try and keep the Law anymore, we just need to believe that Jesus kept the Law and his spotless righteousness is imputed to us.

I had more health problems as a vegan than I ever did eating meat. I don't have a problem with people who are vegetarian or vegan, unfortunately that same respect is never reciprocated.

I eat everything – pork, shell fish and enough fast food that would choke your normal adventist. I’ve prayed about it many times and Jesus impressed me that it’s alright. Keeps me from falling back into legalism.

Actually I can!!! He would be most humble and appreciative no matter where he ate and he would be grateful for the hospitality.

It doesn't matter much what I say. What God says is what is important. God said that He would make the 'new covenant' with Judah and Israel. However, that doesn't mean that the Gentiles are excluded. Gentiles have always been welcome to join with the Israelites in their covenants with God. Starting as far back as Abraham, all the males in his household were circumcised as a sign the covenant, even though none of them were Jews. When the Israelites left Egypt they were joined by the mixed multitude who stood together with Israel at Sinai and joined in the covenant. The Gentiles are also welcome to join with Israelites in the 'new covenant' when they accept Jesus (a Jew) as Redeemer, King and Lord. Paul teaches that Gentile believers are grafted in to Israel (Rom 9-11).

There is more to Romans 2 than just the last two verses. Have you read the whole chapter?

In Romans 2 Paul defines rather clearly who the Gentiles are who may be referred to as "spiritual Jews". It is those who:

• "do instinctively the things of the Law" (v 15)
• "show the work of the Law written in their hearts" (v 16)
• "the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law" (v 26)
• "he keeps the Law" (v 27).

The "spiritual Jew" of Romans 2 is the Gentile who is actually doing the things that the literal Jews should have been doing.

When you talk about "anyone who lives by faith" you're using the English definition of "faith", which refers to something that happens primarily in one's head. However, in both Greek and Hebrew "faith" is inseparable from "faithfulness". The action component of "faithfulness" is an essential part of the belief component of "faith". This is clearly exemplified in Hebrews 11 where all the giants of faith are commended for what they did, not what they thought inside their heads.

Can you show us the passage of Scripture that teaches that a "spiritual Jew" is anyone "who has the law of agape written in the heart not the Torah"? You seem to ignoring the fact that the Torah was given by the God who is "agape".

I could show you many texts but would it do any good? I think not.

Jesus said that the Law is summed up in one word - 'agape'

Agape is not something that we do - it's something that God does. By beholding we become changed.

By beholding the ten commandments we become legalists.

If you're poor and hungry Jesus said it was ok.

In Acts 15 Peter was talking to a whole congregation of Jews whose leaders described as "all zealous for the Law" (Acts 21:20) These people obviously weren't relating to the Law of Moses as if it was unbearable. They were bearing it and bearing it zeal. Moses too said of the Law that it was "not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach" (Deut 30:11) And when Jesus was living perfectly according to the Law, he said, "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Matt 11:29-30)

So was Peter lying? If Peter had said that the Law of Moses was a yoke that the Jews had been unable to bear, it would have been an outright lie that both contradicted what Scripture taught and denied the experience of the people Peter was talking to.

So what was the "burden" that Peter was speaking of? He was speaking of the same thing that Jesus was speaking of when he said, "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." (Matt 23:4) It was the man-made traditions of the "oral law" that the Jewish sages had added to God's law that were burdensome.

Cheddar, you speak of God's Law as if it is something bad, something to be avoided, something that a person is better off without. The Scriptures never speak of God's law like that. Instead the Scriptures always speak of God's law as something good and beneficial:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (2Tim 3: 16-17)
"How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, Who seek Him with all their heart."(Psalm 119:2)
"And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts." (Psalm 119:45)

There's nothing wrong with the last verse of Hebrews 8, and you quote it better than most do. Many Christians try to change the verb tenses of that verse in an attempt to say that the 'old covenant' was already obsolete when Hebrews was written. Hebrews was written decades after Jesus rose from the dead, yet it is clear from verse 13 that the 'old covenant' was still in effect at that time.

It's also clear from Hebrews 8 that the 'new covenant' is not yet in full effect even now because under the 'new covenant' we won't need to teach our neighbors about YHWH-- they will all know Him. We currently still have neighbors and brothers who don't know YHWH.

When the 'new covenant' is fully implemented God's Torah will be written on our hearts. Jesus said, "Follow me" and "I am the way." When a person follows Jesus and walks the way Jesus walked, he will be obedient to the Law of Moses, because Jesus is obedient to the Law of Moses. Jesus showed us how to truly keep God's Law the way God intended-- with our whole hearts.

As you know, Cheddar, the word "legalism" is not found in Scripture. The Bible never condemns anyone for obedience motivated by legalism. It does encourage people to obey for better reasons than legalism, but obedience to God is still a good thing no matter what the motivation of the heart is.

Imagine a father who says to his toddler, "I see you're not playing in the street. That would be a good thing if it were motivated by love for me, but since it is motivated by legalism it would be better for you to go play in the street to avoid legalism."

The Bible doesn't ask a person to be a vegan. Imagine going to a land described as "flowing with milk and honey" when you're not allowed to use either of those.

The man-made chemicals in pesticides, perfumes and solvents are a major problem for many people, as is emotional stress.

Do you have a full beard? If you're clean shaven you are not following the Torah and God will frown upon your disobedience.

Ever pick up sticks on the Sabbath? Not a happy ending for those people. How far do you want to go with this?

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So when the bible speaks of Jews or Israelites is always referencing people who are literal Jews whose bloodline goes back to Jacob (Israel)?

This is a topic that the Protestant world has stumbled over. They think that there are only literal Jews and that’s it. All the OT promises are for them and could never be for anyone else.

I'd like to go as far a Jesus did.

It seems that those who do not value the Mosaic Law are usually more nit-picky and legalistic about it than those who want to follow it. Do not fret-- I am not clean shaven, though a Torah-observant man can be.

The Law of Moses gets a lot of "bad press" among Christians, so when I first experimented with following Torah I was surprised to find that none of God's instructions were onerous. Some were inconvenient at times, some do not fit well in our modern world, and it takes some planning ahead to accomplish a few of them. There was one that I was reluctant to adopt because I was concerned that I would stick out and people would think I was weird, but when I tried it out I found that few people noticed at all. The experiment slowly turned into a lifestyle as I found that followers of Jesus have the freedom to follow God's law, and that God's law really is a good thing just as the Scriptures teach.

It's true that even those who want to follow Torah sometimes fall short of perfect obedience, especially when living in exile (the Diaspora) as we currently live. That's sometimes disappointing, just as falling short of a perfect marriage is sometimes disappointing.


Generally speaking, yes. But it also includes those who threw in their lot with the Israelites, like Ruth the Moabitess and Uriah the Hitite. The bondservants of Jesus would also be included, unless they hold themselves separate from the literal Israelites (as many Christians do).

For clarification:
The term "Jew" technically refers to those Israelites who:

• were from the tribe of Judah, or
• were from the southern kingdom of Judah (after the ten tribes rebelled against David's grandson Rehoboam), or
• live in Judea.

So you put no stock in what Paul says: that a real Jew is someone who is stiritual inwardly and follows the example of Abraham and lives a life of faith?

So who would the 144K of Revelation be - Spiritual Israel or literal Israel? Even James refers to Christians as 'the twelve tribes scattered abroad'.

by faith...

David stole from the temple when he was hungry and Jesus commended him for it.

The disciples broke the Sabbath by eating corn from the field and Jesus justified them as well.

I put full stock in what Paul says in context.

Moses tells us in Genesis 26:5 what God said about Abraham, "Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws." That's a fine example to follow.

A life of faith doesn't include habitual disobedience to God's law.

Revelation says that the 144,000 are made up of 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. That sounds rather literal to me. Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual Israel" that is separate from the remnant of literal Israel.

A "spiritual Israel" that is separate from literal Israel exists only in the imaginations of people who don't like what Scripture says.

James is talking about literal Israelites scattered abroad. If you recall, the twelve tribes of literal Israel had been "scattered abroad" since the Assyrian captivity and the Babylonian captivity. Only a portion of the Israelites returned to the land of Israel. That's why Jews travelled to Jerusalem from so many nations for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) in Acts 2. It's why Paul ran into Jews wherever he traveled. It's also why the message of the angel in Revelation is "Babylon is fallen... come out of her, my people". The OT prophets repeatedly prophesy about the time when God will regather literal Israel. That event is sometimes referred to as the 2nd Exodus or the Greater Exodus.

Which part of what Jesus said about that incident do you interpret as a commendation of David for doing that?

Eating corn from a field they were walking through was not breaking God's Laws. It was only breaking the Sabbath traditions of the Jews.

Torah allows a person to eat from a field they are passing through, but does not allow a person to harvest from that field. Thus a distinction is made between harvesting and eating. Harvesting involves collecting in a container and carrying away. Torah prohibits harvesting on Sabbath, but does not prohibit eating on Sabbath.

Jesus said his disciples were innocent because they actually were innocent according to Torah.