#560702 - 07/20/12 06:09 PM
True Love Doesn't Use Force!
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Registered: 05/09/10
Posts: 1016
Loc: Nixa, MO
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Dr. Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma Gandhi and founder of the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Non-violence, in his June 9 lecture at the University of Puerto Rico, shared the following story as an example of "non-violence in parenting":
"I was 16 years old and living with my parents at the institute my grandfather had founded 18 miles outside of Durban, South Africa, in the middle of the sugar plantations. We were deep in the country and had no neighbours, so my two sisters and I would always look forward to going to town to visit friends or go to the movies.
One day, my father asked me to drive him to town for an all-day conference, and I jumped at the chance. Since I was going to town, my mother gave me a list of groceries she needed and, since I had all day in town, my father ask me to take care of several pending chores, such as getting the car serviced. When I dropped my father off that morning, he said, 'I will meet you here at 5:00 p.m., and we will go home together.'
After hurriedly completing my chores, I went straight to the nearest movie theatre. I got so engrossed in a John Wayne double-feature that I forgot the time. It was 5:30 before I remembered. By the time I ran to the garage and got the car and hurried to where my father was waiting for me, it was almost 6:00.
He anxiously asked me, 'Why were you late?' I was so ashamed of telling him I was watching a John Wayne western movie that I said, 'The car wasn't ready, so I had to wait,' not realizing that he had already called the garage. When he caught me in the lie, he said: 'There's something wrong in the way I brought you up that didn't give you the confidence to tell me the truth. In order to figure out where I went wrong with you, I'm going to walk home 18 miles and think about it.'
So, dressed in his suit and dress shoes, he began to walk home in the dark on mostly unpaved, unlit roads. I couldn't leave him, so for five-and-a-half hours I drove behind him, watching my father go through this agony for a stupid lie that I uttered.
I decided then and there that I was never going to lie again. I often think about that episode and wonder, if he had punished me the way we punish our children, whether I would have learned a lesson at all. I don't think so. I would have suffered the punishment and gone on doing the same thing. But this single non-violent action was so powerful that it is still as if it happened yesterday. That is the power of non-violence."
**
May I add? That is the power of love.
You see, true love doesn't use personal power to force people to do things. True love waits, forgives, goes the extra mile, suffers, carries the burden.
That is the greatest temptation you and I face.
When we don't get what we want in a marriage, we divorce, or malign the other spouse with the kids.
When we are scared, insecure, or feel inferior, we give people the silent treatment, threaten, or ignore them. Insecure men do it to women in marriages. Angry women do it to men. Parents do it to kids. Kids do it to parents. I remember a set of parents, Christian, pastor, educated people, telling their son... "If you don't write to us, we won't write to you. If you don't call us, we won't call you. If you don't visit us, we won't visit you!" He told me later on, "My parents gave generously,because they needed to feel good about themselves. But everything they gave had a price tag. If you did not respond the way they wanted, they raised hell!" Wow... No wonder he turned to Scientology to resolve his emotional mess!
When we don't agree on theological matters we press, and press for conformity. The Christian Church and Islam both have horrible records in the LOVE department. We judge the stoning of women in Islamic nations, while we promote the oppression of poor people by default, and still speak from both sides of our mouth on race issues. We have learned in America to shut up at the right moment when we face race, religion, politics, sex and money. We are more sophisticated now than 50 years ago. Pastors of mega-churches "know" they need to stay out of politics to protect their non-profit status, but under the table they still find ways to promote their agendas! Why? Because force, numbers, influence, and money get better results than LOVE!
When we don't get our way, we bomb, we demote, we threaten, we fire, we fight, we manipulate.
When Christians believe they are right, they seek to impose their will on others. It wasn't just a Hitler strategy. God deliver us all, from a majority Christian, militant army of angry people. People with power are always dangerous people!
When someone hurts us we walk away.
When a child challenges us we penalize him.
Sometimes with a smile, other times with a stick, still other times with the tone of voice and the choice of words, we look for a way to get results, simply because LOVE takes too long, it's too tedious, and we must move on!
I had once a man in my office. Part of his life story intrigued me until I found out that his parents, Christian, conservative, value-driven people, had made an agreement with him. They would place $ 50.000 in a bank account. He would have access to that money for whatever he wanted, IF he graduated as a lawyer, remained virgin until marriage, and did not marry until he was done with school. Well, he followed the rules. He got the money. He was now 42, battling incredible emotional and spiritual issues. He never learned the value of LOVE, and the ability to do what he did for love, and personal conviction. Force got the results desired. Externally, that is!
People who use money, religion, personal influence, fame, reputation, emotional pressure, manipulative approaches, DO get results! You either do it my way, or get away from me. I either pay for the whole thing myself, so I can control what happens, or nothing. Yes, they get results, indeed! But fail at the most important lesson of life: LOVE!
True love is exemplified best in the way Jesus went to the cross. Did He have the power to protect Himself? Of course, He did. He was God! He was mocked, ridiculed. People yelled at him while he was on the cross... "Shows us your power, Jesus! Show us you are who you say you are!" He never yielded to the temptation to use force or His personal power in His behalf.
True love... Are you willing to pay the price? Are you willing to take the time to see it happen? Are you willing to let go, and let God, even if it looks unfair to the naked eyes? Are you willing to risk your reputation for love? Look like a failure because you refuse to use what produces results?
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#560770 - 07/20/12 10:39 PM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Administrator of Foro Adventista
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26529
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
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I take a lot of exceptions to this. When we don't agree on theological matters we press, and press for conformity...
The Christian Church and Islam both have horrible records in the LOVE department....
We have learned in America to shut up at the right moment when we face race, religion, politics, sex and money...
When Christians believe they are right, they seek to impose their will on others...
Sounds like a lot of anti-Christian rhetoric. The Adventist church does not try to force conformity at all. Membership is completely voluntary. I have never heard of a shotgun baptism in the Adventist church. Those that agree with us are free to join. Those that don't agree need not join and if they are members they are free to leave. America is all about freedom - both of religion and speech. Wow! That is a mouthful. Think about it. There have been Christian groups through history that sought to force their beliefs on others - such as the papacy during the Dark Ages - but that is not too common any more. True love is selfless. I think there are times that true love does use force. When my daughter was 3 years old she was running a temperature and wouldn't take her medicine. I had to force her to take it. Walking 18 miles wouldn't have convinced her to take that medicine - only force would have gotten the medicine down. Too often people use force for selfish reason and there is where the confusion comes in. I should never hit my child when I am angry. But while I am angry I can tell the child they are going to get a spanking, and give it to them later when I calm down. My motive always has to be selfless. If I have a selfish motive than it is not love.
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#560840 - 07/21/12 08:31 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: Shane]
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Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 46023
Loc: at the moment its Worcester, M...
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I take a lot of exceptions to this. When we don't agree on theological matters we press, and press for conformity...
The Christian Church and Islam both have horrible records in the LOVE department....
We have learned in America to shut up at the right moment when we face race, religion, politics, sex and money...
When Christians believe they are right, they seek to impose their will on others...
Sounds like a lot of anti-Christian rhetoric. The Adventist church does not try to force conformity at all. Membership is completely voluntary. I have never heard of a shotgun baptism in the Adventist church. Those that agree with us are free to join. Those that don't agree need not join and if they are members they are free to leave. America is all about freedom - both of religion and speech. Wow! That is a mouthful. Think about it. There have been Christian groups through history that sought to force their beliefs on others - such as the papacy during the Dark Ages - but that is not too common any more. True love is selfless. I think there are times that true love does use force. When my daughter was 3 years old she was running a temperature and wouldn't take her medicine. I had to force her to take it. Walking 18 miles wouldn't have convinced her to take that medicine - only force would have gotten the medicine down. Too often people use force for selfish reason and there is where the confusion comes in. I should never hit my child when I am angry. But while I am angry I can tell the child they are going to get a spanking, and give it to them later when I calm down. My motive always has to be selfless. If I have a selfish motive than it is not love.  I most definitely agree Shane.
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phkrause
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#561306 - 07/23/12 08:35 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 10619
Loc: This Side of Calvary
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I must agree with the fellows on this, The Adventist church does not demand that we conform, or use force. If you visit churches across the counry you will certainly see that the opposite is true. If yougo to our churches in other countries, you will see that our common denominator is our belief in God,and the Sabbath. There may be individuals that would love to control but those same people are in every organization known to man
Additionally, I have dear friends in many "Sunday" churches ... again I do not see that a push to make members conform.
Edited by Naomi (07/23/12 08:37 AM)
_________________________
If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
knowledge vs. wisdom Knowledge talks and wisdom listens. - M.Rangarao -
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#561327 - 07/23/12 10:26 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 1505
Loc: Canada
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Just don't question the Trinity or Women's Ordination.
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#561329 - 07/23/12 10:27 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 1505
Loc: Canada
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One woman wrote "Agitate, agitate, agitate" for Bible truth and clarity.
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#561456 - 07/24/12 02:37 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Learning to take it to Jesus
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 8411
Loc: Same as home church
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This was powerful! OW, powerful! I am so sorry it was missed! My heart is breaking to the point of crying that this beautiful point was overlooked! If we all took it to heart....! I hope I never forget what that father did and learn to think as he did. To think we learn about the love of God from the strangest places. Isn't that what God did? Instead of punishing us, Jesus punished Himself! Dr. Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma Gandhi and founder of the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Non-violence, in his June 9 lecture at the University of Puerto Rico, shared the following story as an example of "non-violence in parenting":
"I was 16 years old and living with my parents at the institute my grandfather had founded 18 miles outside of Durban, South Africa, in the middle of the sugar plantations. We were deep in the country and had no neighbours, so my two sisters and I would always look forward to going to town to visit friends or go to the movies.
One day, my father asked me to drive him to town for an all-day conference, and I jumped at the chance. Since I was going to town, my mother gave me a list of groceries she needed and, since I had all day in town, my father ask me to take care of several pending chores, such as getting the car serviced. When I dropped my father off that morning, he said, 'I will meet you here at 5:00 p.m., and we will go home together.'
After hurriedly completing my chores, I went straight to the nearest movie theatre. I got so engrossed in a John Wayne double-feature that I forgot the time. It was 5:30 before I remembered. By the time I ran to the garage and got the car and hurried to where my father was waiting for me, it was almost 6:00.
He anxiously asked me, 'Why were you late?' I was so ashamed of telling him I was watching a John Wayne western movie that I said, 'The car wasn't ready, so I had to wait,' not realizing that he had already called the garage. When he caught me in the lie, he said: 'There's something wrong in the way I brought you up that didn't give you the confidence to tell me the truth. In order to figure out where I went wrong with you, I'm going to walk home 18 miles and think about it.'
So, dressed in his suit and dress shoes, he began to walk home in the dark on mostly unpaved, unlit roads. I couldn't leave him, so for five-and-a-half hours I drove behind him, watching my father go through this agony for a stupid lie that I uttered.
I decided then and there that I was never going to lie again. I often think about that episode and wonder, if he had punished me the way we punish our children, whether I would have learned a lesson at all. I don't think so. I would have suffered the punishment and gone on doing the same thing. But this single non-violent action was so powerful that it is still as if it happened yesterday. That is the power of non-violence."
_________________________
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
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#561463 - 07/24/12 03:19 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Registered: 10/10/09
Posts: 4914
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True Love doesn't use force to do what? Ask the Egyptians about their Red Sea experience? Or perhaps the 180,000 Assyrian soldiers? Or the US Military in the Philippines in 1945.Sometimes ya gotta think about the way these things are worded.
Edited by doug yowell (07/24/12 03:22 AM)
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#561630 - 07/24/12 09:11 PM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: doug yowell]
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Learning to take it to Jesus
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 8411
Loc: Same as home church
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True Love doesn't use force to do what? Ask the Egyptians about their Red Sea experience? Or perhaps the 180,000 Assyrian soldiers? Or the US Military in the Philippines in 1945.Sometimes ya gotta think about the way these things are worded. What is the goal in using force? What is the result? What was the father's goal with his son? How exactly did using force make Christians out of the Jews? How has it made Christians out of anybody? I mean the kind that will be fit for heaven.
_________________________
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
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#561664 - 07/24/12 10:43 PM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: Gordon1]
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Administrator of Foro Adventista
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26529
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
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Just don't question the Trinity or Women's Ordination.
The Adventist church doesn't force anyone to accept the Trinity or any other doctrine. If a person doesn't want to believe as we do, they are free to leave or not join in the first place. During the Dark Ages there were people executed for heresy. I am not aware of the Adventist church executing one person for heresy.
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#561669 - 07/24/12 10:49 PM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: doug yowell]
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Administrator of Foro Adventista
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26529
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
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True Love doesn't use force to do what? Ask the Egyptians about their Red Sea experience? Or perhaps the 180,000 Assyrian soldiers? The use of force in these circumstances appears to be an act of judgement. God's judgement is consistent with His love but that would probably get us into another topic. Or the US Military in the Philippines in 1945. I don't think the US would have claimed they were in the Philippines to show their love for the Japanese.
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#561703 - 07/25/12 12:09 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: OzarkWoman]
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Learning to take it to Jesus
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 8411
Loc: Same as home church
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What do people think of the father's reaction to his son?
Is that something worth thinking about?
_________________________
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
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#561710 - 07/25/12 01:12 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: teresaq(sda)]
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Administrator of Foro Adventista
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26529
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
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What do people think of the father's reaction to his son?
I think it was an excellent means of teaching the son a valuable lesson and the story is quite useful in discussions about parenting. I don't think we can take it much beyond that and try to apply it to other relationships such as those between a church and society around it, a corporation and society or relationships between nations. Jesus says those He loves He rebukes and chastises so that is something to think about too.
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#561719 - 07/25/12 02:00 AM
Re: True Love Doesn't Use Force!
[Re: Shane]
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Learning to take it to Jesus
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 8411
Loc: Same as home church
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What do people think of the father's reaction to his son?
I think it was an excellent means of teaching the son a valuable lesson and the story is quite useful in discussions about parenting. ... Jesus says those He loves He rebukes and chastises so that is something to think about too. The father did rebuke and chastise his son.
_________________________
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
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