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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do.
And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with
- even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
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#673803 - 11/03/13 06:23 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
Kevin H Offline



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2987
Loc: New York
I'm sorry, but I got that "Opinion" from church records. They were presented at the New York Conference Campmeeting in 2012 by an official Church historian from Andrews University.

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#673813 - 11/03/13 08:14 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
I get it Kevin, your opinion is based on his opinion, which you are presenting as fact.

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#673815 - 11/03/13 08:27 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: ClubV12]
debbym Offline


Registered: 02/20/12
Posts: 1798
Loc: washington state
club,

God is unchanging, he is the same yesterday today and forever. to allow and place a women in leadership cannot be an anomaly for God.

God is dealing with human beings who struggle to stretch to grasp and understand with width and depth of God's love.

it was after pentecost that Peter was still struggling in his flesh with the idea of God's equal acceptance of Gentiles, and it was even after Cornelius that he was still affected by his bias and prejudice.

Just because God blesses us does not mean we have reached or especially understand the full width and breadth of God's love.
_________________________

deb

Love awakens love

Let God be true and every man a liar.

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#673820 - 11/03/13 09:00 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Male leadership is a plainly taught in Scripture. The politics of this issue are subservient to this larger theological principle.


rejoice always,

G
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#673880 - 11/03/13 01:13 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: olger]
Tom Wetmore Offline
Latitudinarian


Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 7010
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Originally Posted By: olger
Male leadership is a plainly taught in Scripture. The politics of this issue are subservient to this larger theological principle.


rejoice always,

G


An opinion that is very much out of harmony with the position held by this church throughout the lifetime of the female who was unquestionably a leader of this church - Ellen G. White. The founders of this Church and its leadership during EGW's lifetime consistently supported women in ministry and leadership and acted upon it by licensing women as ministers and appointing women to numerous leadership positions at all levels of the denomination, including the General Conference.

To be consistent with whatever hermeneutic you base that opinion on, you have to reject God's calling of Ellen White as his messenger to lead in the formation and growth of this Church. If you do not think she was in a leadership role, you undermine her authoritative voice for this Church. Do you accept her authority over you, a man, or not?
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)

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#673995 - 11/03/13 05:38 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
God provided leadership through his servant, yes. We agree on that.

On eagerly seizing that abstract example as a reason that all women are therefore eligible for leadership seems to do two things.


1) It devalues Ellen's gift.
2) It reaches for a justification that just isn't there.

The fact that Deborah was a prophetess, didn't eliminate role distinctions in the rest of the Bible, nor did it cause Jesus to select women as His disciples. I know that sounds ludicrous, and it is a fair facsimile of people trying to use eGW to justify female headship in the church today. Hogwash, as Grandma would say.


Blessins,

G

_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#675089 - 11/09/13 03:14 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: ClubV12]
TruthWave Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Washington, USA
Amen,Bro! I'm with you!
_________________________
"Lux Lucet in Tenebris"

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#675090 - 11/09/13 03:15 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: olger]
TruthWave Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Washington, USA
Amen,Bro!
_________________________
"Lux Lucet in Tenebris"

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#675092 - 11/09/13 03:18 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
TruthWave Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Washington, USA
Wrong. EGW was a prophet, the prophets were 2nd in the list of spiritual gifts, the Apostles were first.
_________________________
"Lux Lucet in Tenebris"

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#675093 - 11/09/13 03:20 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: ClubV12]
TruthWave Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Washington, USA
So true, Bro.
_________________________
"Lux Lucet in Tenebris"

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#675201 - 11/10/13 08:14 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
If Adam & Eve's first child had been a girl, Tom et al. would be doing backflips trying to spin that as justification for female headship.

Thus goes the desperation.


og out
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#675410 - 11/10/13 11:31 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: olger]
Windsor Offline
Broke the 400 mark

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 588
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: olger
If Adam & Eve's first child had been a girl, Tom et al. would be doing backflips trying to spin that as justification for female headship.

Thus goes the desperation.


og out


In fact, the Bible strangely doesn't even mention the name of a single daughter of Adam and Eve though it mentions they (obviously) had daughters. I also find fascinating that the Bible fails to mention the name of Noah's wife even though she is the ancestor of every human living today.
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#675456 - 11/11/13 11:52 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: olger]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Originally Posted By: olger
God provided leadership through his servant, yes. We agree on that.

On eagerly seizing that abstract example as a reason that all women are therefore eligible for leadership seems to do two things.


1) It devalues Ellen's gift.
2) It reaches for a justification that just isn't there.

The fact that Deborah was a prophetess, didn't eliminate role distinctions in the rest of the Bible, nor did it cause Jesus to select women as His disciples. I know that sounds ludicrous, and it is a fair facsimile of people trying to use eGW to justify female headship in the church today. Hogwash, as Grandma would say.


Blessins,

G



Seems to me that there were 4 daughters of some man, who were considered prophets in the NT, and there is at least ONE each, deaconess and apostle, who were female...There are numerous prophecies enunciating that females , along with thier male counterparts, are playing prime roles in the last days of earth's history...

As for the concept of "headship", there is neither the word "headship" nor is the concept accepted in the NT without many other texts showing that men and women are equal, both in salvation and in church responsiblities....Thus, those who accept the concept of "headship" are adding to the bible...

Now, if you want to talk about a team doing the harvesting of people in the last days, women play an equal role there as well....


It also occurs to me, that the early church has far many more females that were in leadership positions, ie prophets, administrators, business leaders, than we in the last days do...Yet, the impression is that there are far many more ladies in those positions in these, the last days of earth history, than at the first....

Therefore, these gifts are not devalued if there are more women....rather, it confirms that women are needed and valued even more than our predecessors thought.....

Olger, you are in direct conflict with your forefathers....


Edited by Neil D (11/11/13 11:59 AM)
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#675458 - 11/11/13 12:16 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
Green Cochoa Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 391
Loc: The Orient
Originally Posted By: Neil D
As for the concept of "headship", there is neither the word "headship" nor is the concept accepted in the NT without many other texts showing that men and women are equal, both in salvation and in church responsiblities....Thus, those who accept the concept of "headship" are adding to the bible...


Headship came part and parcel with the birthright blessing. It was usually the firstborn that received this in each family, though there are exceptions. It was, however, always a son. Daughters would sometimes receive the inheritance of the family when there were no sons, however there is no record of a daughter receiving the spiritual birthright blessing.

Jacob received the blessing over his twin brother Esau because God promised he would have it. Along with it, he received the headship that came with it.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
No sooner had Jacob left his father's tent than Esau entered. Though he had sold his birthright, and confirmed the transfer by a solemn oath, he was now determined to secure its blessings, regardless of his brother's claim. With the spiritual was connected the temporal birthright, which would give him the headship of the family and possession of a double portion of his father's wealth. These were blessings that he could value. "Let my father arise," he said, "and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me." {PP 180.4}


Headship also came with kingly power, of course, as the king was made head over the nation.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? (1 Samuel 15:17)


But perhaps the most important text on this topic of headship is to be found where everyone who rejects the Old Testament as having been done away cannot dismiss it: right in the New Testament.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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#675486 - 11/11/13 02:40 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Neil D]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7130
Loc: Colorado
Neil,
Do you really believe the issue is about Biblical definitions, spirituality, abilities or .........who is in charge? thinking peace
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#675708 - 11/12/13 12:27 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: CoAspen]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Originally Posted By: CoAspen
Neil,
Do you really believe the issue is about Biblical definitions, spirituality, abilities or .........who is in charge? thinking peace


I am not sure where you are trying to go with this....so let me answer your questions pretty specifically....

I believe in equality...currently, I see some major inequalities being done by the church...Ever since reading about the Mary Kay incident 25 years ago [or there a bouts], I have been aware of some church illegalities done to individuals simply because of gender issues. It doesn't appeal to my sense of fairness...and to be honest, it just isn't right....

After looking at the spiritual side of the gender issue, ie priests were males, eve fell before adam, women were not allowed to teach men, ect. I honestly saw a biblical justification for inequality. And my sense of fairness kicked in...and I almost didnt believe in the Christian's God of fairness and honesty...Then I read a book about some gender issues from our theology department in Andrews...and that book made sense[can't remember the name of it, something like "coming to the table"]...it appealed to my sense of fairness for women, it justified God and His fairness....

So, yeah, there are biblical definitions that I feel are being used in error, mis-defined, and mishandled. Yeah, there are spiritual issues here that are not being addressed, or deliberately derailed. We KNOW that women are quite capable of doing MOST men's jobs, and therefore are quite capable of being in charge.....
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#675711 - 11/12/13 12:32 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Neil D]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7130
Loc: Colorado
Twas a genuine question. You seemed to have thought things through in a logical manner, so I was just wondering. My thoughts are changing to the blief that the issue is more about 'control' vs theology.
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#675714 - 11/12/13 12:35 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Green Cochoa]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:
Headship came part and parcel with the birthright blessing.


Really? biblical text that shows the word "Headship" and "birthright" in the same text please....

If you can't find it, may I suggest that the two words identify two different concepts that are plainly reviewed in scripture...

Quote:

Headship also came with kingly power, of course, as the king was made head over the nation.


Again, text please using the word "Headship".....

Quote:
But perhaps the most important text on this topic of headship is to be found where everyone who rejects the Old Testament as having been done away cannot dismiss it: right in the New Testament.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)


Um,where is the word "headship" in that text...I see the word "head"...but not the word "headship"...those are two different concepts and do not mean the same...and the context is a bit off....

Why don't you start off by defining what "headship" is....and where that word is in the bible....and then we can go from there....
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#675731 - 11/12/13 01:39 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Neil D]
Gregory Matthews Online   content


Registered: 05/10/00
Posts: 10029
Loc: Colorado, USA
The book was:

Quote:
The Welcome Table: Setting a Place for Ordained Women. edited by Patricia A. Habada and Rebecca Frost Brillhart, TEAM Press, Langley Park, Maryland, 1995

We have three of the 14 essays that comprise this out-of-print book for your on-line reading.

Bert Haloviak: Chapter 1: A Place at the Table: Women and the Early Years
Kit Watts: Chapter 2 Moving Away From the Table: A Survey of Historical Factors Affecting Women Leaders
Kit Watts: Appendix 5 An Outline of the History of Seventh-day Adventists and the Ordination of Women


You can access the three chapters listed above at:

http://sdanet.org/atissue/wo/
_________________________
Gregory

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#675733 - 11/12/13 01:51 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Gregory Matthews]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
That was it.....thanks Gregory....
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#675735 - 11/12/13 02:00 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: CoAspen]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Originally Posted By: CoAspen
Twas a genuine question. You seemed to have thought things through in a logical manner, so I was just wondering. My thoughts are changing to the belief that the issue is more about 'control' vs theology.



I might throw in a few side issues, but over all, I won't argue with you....

Our society has become more conservative in attitudes over the last, well, for the last 13 years especially[a reference to politics]....I think that has added to the problem....and there is a solidifying of values [ a reference to religion ]....I suspect that many of us don't even know just how dumb down we really are.....[a reference to education]....

ok, back to the topic.....
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#675736 - 11/12/13 02:12 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: olger]
lazarus Offline



Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 5204
Loc: Maryland USA
Originally Posted By: olger


On eagerly seizing that abstract example as a reason that all women are therefore eligible for leadership seems to do two things.


An abstract example would have been Joan of Arc or perhaps Margaret Thatcher but EGW is probably the most pertinent example we can use. She was chosen by God to provide leadership to the SDA church. She, although deceased, is the most authoritative voice in the SDA church. To use a form of words that runs away from calling her a leader or acknowledging her authority certainly devalues her gift and is disingenuous.
_________________________
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Einstein

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#675755 - 11/12/13 04:32 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
She was chosen after a couple of men, who were chosen before her, couldn't handle the job. It's the same principle we see in the bible over and over. God calls a MAN, he can't handle it, God has to move to the "back up plan", the secondary, not His first choice.

When He couldn't find a man OR a woman, He used children.

By some reasoning, 2nd graders should be allowed to be President. Of perhaps you would prefer to use Balaams donkey as your example, or maybe a rock.

Prophets are a distinct calling, who they are, what they are called to do set no precedents of the Church one way or the other. Neither do children...


Edited by ClubV12 (11/12/13 04:34 PM)

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#675759 - 11/12/13 04:46 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: ClubV12]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7130
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Prophets are a distinct calling, who they are, what they are called to do set no precedents of the Church one way or the other.


Say What? Really? EGW set no precedents for the church!!


Edited by CoAspen (11/12/13 04:52 PM)
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#675762 - 11/12/13 04:57 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
You read it right CoAspen, Ellen White sets no precedents one way or the other for or against womens ordination.

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#675776 - 11/12/13 06:03 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: ClubV12]
Kevin H Offline



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2987
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: ClubV12
She was chosen after a couple of men, who were chosen before her, couldn't handle the job. It's the same principle we see in the bible over and over. God calls a MAN, he can't handle it, God has to move to the "back up plan", the secondary, not His first choice.

When He couldn't find a man OR a woman, He used children.

By some reasoning, 2nd graders should be allowed to be President. Of perhaps you would prefer to use Balaams donkey as your example, or maybe a rock.

Prophets are a distinct calling, who they are, what they are called to do set no precedents of the Church one way or the other. Neither do children...


Club, one of those two men, William Foy, was NOT chosen to lead in the development of the Seventh-day Adventist church. He was faithful to his job, and if God wanted him to do what became Mrs. White's job, he would have done it. Now you may have a point with Hazen Foss, but you will have to edit that at least one man was offered the job first.

I know that our older histories classify Foy with Foss, however there was a study about Foy done in the late 1970s and it was discovered that Foy was indeed faithful to his job and a true saint with a star studded crown waiting for him in the resurrection.

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#675781 - 11/12/13 06:39 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: CoAspen]
CoAspen Offline


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 7130
Loc: Colorado
Soooooo...you're narrowing 'precedents' to one issue/thing/theology?
_________________________

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

God from 'Conversations with God'

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#675799 - 11/12/13 07:51 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
ClubV12 Offline
Extended Vacation


Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 5738
Nope, not narrowing CoAspen, as it concerns setting precedents, prophets don't apply across the board. Ellen White could have cared less whether she was ordained, or not, of what title you gave her, or whether she was considered a "leader", she had a mission, straight from the throne.

WAS she a "leader"? That could be argued. She was always under the direction OF leadership and submitted to their requests. Unless, following Pauls advice, it was clear she must obey God on some specific issue rather than man. NAD would do well to follow her example in that regard. NAD, NOT having direct light, has placed itself on very dangerous ground by snubbing the authority of leadership. However "good" their excuses may be, they remain, excuses.

She didn't discover the Sabbath, Bates did. She wasn't the first to figure out the doctrine of the sanctuary, Hiram Edson and even Fitch preceded her on that. She didn't figure out WHEN to keep the Sabbath, Andrews did. And the list goes on and on. She, for the most part, was ignorant of the bible study the MEN were doing to establish doctrine. She couldn't even follow the conversations!

She was a mouth piece for God, through divine inspiration, visions, dreams, affirming the diligent bible study of the leaders and founders of this Church.

Interesting point about Foy Kevin, I haven't studied the issue to have an opinion about your comment. I sure hope thats the case though!

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#675845 - 11/12/13 11:31 PM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Neil D]
Green Cochoa Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 391
Loc: The Orient
Originally Posted By: Neil D
Quote:
Headship came part and parcel with the birthright blessing.


Really? biblical text that shows the word "Headship" and "birthright" in the same text please....

If you can't find it, may I suggest that the two words identify two different concepts that are plainly reviewed in scripture...

Quote:

Headship also came with kingly power, of course, as the king was made head over the nation.


Again, text please using the word "Headship".....

Quote:
But perhaps the most important text on this topic of headship is to be found where everyone who rejects the Old Testament as having been done away cannot dismiss it: right in the New Testament.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)


Um,where is the word "headship" in that text...I see the word "head"...but not the word "headship"...those are two different concepts and do not mean the same...and the context is a bit off....

Why don't you start off by defining what "headship" is....and where that word is in the bible....and then we can go from there....

Neil,

Your question specifically looking for the word "headship" is like asking specifically for the word "adulthood" and somehow thinking that one cannot be an "adult" without the use of the word "adulthood."

Simple grammar would tell anyone how the words "head" and "headship" are related, just as "child" and "childhood", "adult" and "adulthood", "king" and "kingship", etc. If one is the "head", then he is in a position of "headship." If one is the "king," then he is in a position of "kingship." If one is a disciple, he is in "discipleship."

The fact that the Bible uses the word "head" and not specifically "headship" is a point of grammar usage and not a point of meaning. Heads of tribes, by definition, can be said to have positions of "headship." The head of the house is also in a position of "headship."

Do you deny these facts?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

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#675872 - 11/13/13 10:05 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Green Cochoa]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
You really don't understand headship, do you Green?

Even by using your biblical definitions of what "headship" is, that is defining what a man should be, the concept of headship overstates the biblical one...

You see, by your bible text/definition, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) demonstrates that a man first is humble, is selfless....the definition of headship doesn't say that. It demonstrates selfishness," chief authority, supremacy"... That is why you are mistaken, Green...you are piecing definitions to support an idea that you think is in the bible....

The bible gives illustrations as to what a man should be and his relationship to his wife...It starts with Adam, who did nothing wrong at the very beginning of creation in letting Eve explore in a safe place called Paradise where threats were unheard of, let alone, understood. How do you protect yourself from evil when it has never existed before, and you don't know what form it will take...So, Adam concentrated on his relationship with Eve...As for that tree that they were not to eat from, well, not to worry, because there were plenty of other trees to eat from...and they both pledged not to eat from that one tree...Now, if Adam practiced a "biblical" headship, as you believe, then Adam would have hovered or commanded Eve as to where to go...because she was his 'helpmeet'...

Now, think about this...What fully functional, relationship ready biblical woman is going to be 'commanded'? Have you ever tried to command a woman, let alone a person? I have meet many relationship ready women, and NONE of them submitted to perceived authority, married, let alone unmarried women. She will always rebel against authority...even your perceived "Godly" woman.

It's all in the context,Green...Your concept of headship is neither biblical nor practical...in fact, it is rather fanciful...
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#675881 - 11/13/13 11:05 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Green Cochoa]
Tom Wetmore Offline
Latitudinarian


Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 7010
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Green, you do need to spend some quality time with a dictionary. (It really isn't just about grammar…)

While there is a relationship between "head" and "headship", the meaning of headship is much more specific and limited. It really only has two closely related definitions in the dictionary. But the word "head" has about 60 distinct definitions according to my dictionary. And only a few of those are even remotely related to the concept and meaning of "headship".

But that is only about the word in English as we understand and use it in the 21st Century. The essential point of this whole issue is what did the Greek mean in the 1st Century. The better scholarship does get to that essential difference. And from that the Greek word(s) translated into English as "head" cannot be assumed to have had all the same meanings and nuances in the 1st Century as 21st Century English equivalent, and visa versa.

And when experts in 1st Century Greek tell us that a very distinct meaning of the Greek word used is "source" rather than "in charge or control or rulership", then we should pay attention and at least consider that our own view may not be the only possibility.
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)

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#676105 - 11/14/13 01:24 AM Re: Sandra Roberts Elected President of SECC [Re: Tom Wetmore]
Kevin H Offline



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2987
Loc: New York
Newer publications tend to have the updated information about Foy!

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