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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do.
And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with
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#67993 - 01/10/06 11:44 AM Are there really Jesuits in the Church?
lazarus Offline



Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 5185
Loc: Maryland USA
I've always wondered. Are there really Jesuits in the SDA church? Have you ever met one? What did they do? How did you know they were a Jesuit? Could I be a Jesuit and not know it?
_________________________
Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.
Einstein

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#67994 - 01/10/06 01:54 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Nan Offline
Benevolent Physician


Registered: 04/07/00
Posts: 8270
Loc: Sydney,Australia
I think the answer will depend on who is asking the question, certain individuals I could think of would see said people lurking in many places.

I recently read a review about the last 8 GCs from a certain well known person who calls himself SDA - it would not surprise me if he is firmly of the opinion that the church has been infiltrated.

I have not met one to my knowledge - and I do not think I am one <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#67995 - 01/10/06 05:54 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: Alure19]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
Some SDAs (of the persuasion I would characterize as paranoid, conspiracy-theoryist, and superstitious) seem to regard the "Jesuit infiltration" flap the same way people talk in hushed whispers about the Illuminati. Those who do so, of course, evince in so doing that they know nothing resembling reality concerning either one. They may as well be talking about flying saucers. REAL LIFE JESUITS are NOT interested in "infiltrating" and "taking over" the SDA church.

The way these notions get started is because someone notes something being TAUGHT or promoted in the church which RESEMBLES Jesuit thinking or teaching, and in the process of communicating the concern this gets twisted into the notion that Jesuits are being secretly trained and sent out as spiritual sabotage agents into the SDA church. This is ludicrous of course, but those who swear by such nonsense will also tell you that anyone pooh-poohing it, as I am shamelessly doing, is probably one of THEM!!!!

It's nonsense.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot

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#67996 - 01/11/06 10:53 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:

Are there really Jesuits in the SDA church? Have you ever met one? What did they do? How did you know they were a Jesuit? Could I be a Jesuit and not know it?




Literal Jesuits? Maybe, just maybe one or two....Former Jesuits, maybe more....But literal spying jesuits???? No.

In talking with a abusive Roman Catholic priest, SDAs are way way down on the radar....and according to him, because we have this paranoia of possible Jesuits spying in the church, our whole organization is dysfunctional. To which, if we truely are concerned about Jesuits spying in our church, I would agree.

Now, lazarus, if you change your question to MEAN , "Do we have SPIRITUAL Jesuits?", then yeah, we got lots of them!
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#67997 - 01/14/06 01:09 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10834
Loc: Western United States
Quote:

lazarus said:
I've always wondered. Are there really Jesuits in the SDA church? Have you ever met one?




I certainly hope so.

[:"red"] "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden..." [/] Matthew 5:14 NASB

[:"red"] "No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light." [/] Luke 11:33 KJV
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!

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#67998 - 01/14/06 01:43 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
I don't oppose Catholics joining the SDA church. My wife was a Catholic before she became an SDA, and I hope millions of Catholics study and decide to become Seventh-day Adventists. The problem is when Jesuits or Jesuit-trained people join the SDA church, or any church, with the intention of spying on the church or of influencing church teachings, whether through becoming a leader or a professor in an SDA educational institution.
Whether Jesuits have actually infiltrated the SDA church is probably impossible to prove, but it is a fact that one of the stated plans of the Jesuits is to enter all sorts of organizations and churches with the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican. I think anyone who would be shocked to find out this was the case needs to study the history of the Jesuits as well as do a close study of church history.
Anyone interested in this subject should read pages 563 to 581 of the Great Controversy by Ellen G. White. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#67999 - 01/14/06 01:52 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
One excellent, fairly recent book on the Jesuits is by a well-known author who himself was once a Jesuit and a professor at the Roman Catholic university in the Vatican. His name was Malachi Martin, and he was the author of The Jesuits and The Keys of This Blood. Both books are definitely worth reading. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68000 - 01/14/06 02:09 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10834
Loc: Western United States
Quote:

John317 said:
I think anyone who would be shocked to find out this was the case needs to study the history of the Jesuits as well as do a close study of church history.
Anyone interested in this subject should read pages 563 to 581 of the Great Controversy by Ellen G. White. Jim




There's a song with the words, "They shall know we are Christians by our love, by our love. They shall know we are Christians by our love."

[:"red"] " By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." [/] John 13:35 NASB

[:"red"] "For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth." [/] 2 Corinthians 13:8 NASB

Blessings!
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!

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#68001 - 01/14/06 08:11 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:

he problem is when Jesuits or Jesuit-trained people join the SDA church, or any church, with the intention of spying on the church or of influencing church teachings, whether through becoming a leader or a professor in an SDA educational institution.




Ok, I will bite. Who, at Andrews, do you concider a Jesuit who is spying on the church or influencing church teachings?

Quote:

Whether Jesuits have actually infiltrated the SDA church is probably impossible to prove, but it is a fact that one of the stated plans of the Jesuits is to enter all sorts of organizations and churches with the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican.




Who said this? At what time? And who do you think is a Jesuit?

To promote fear is to establish the myth that Adventism exists for the sole purpose to be against something, in this case, against Catholisim...I would hope that my church is established on a better foundation than that...
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#68002 - 01/14/06 10:56 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26567
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
If there ever were Jesuits in the church with the purpose of changing our doctrine, they arn't needed any more.

There are many in the church that:

  • question the literal creation week
  • question the need to keep the Sabbath holy
  • question that Sunday is the mark of the beast
  • question the Sanctuary doctrine
  • question the soon return of Christ
  • question that the Adventist church is God's remnant


So maybe there were some but they already accomplished their purpose. I have never been much for conspiriacy theories myself.
_________________________
Construction Missionary... Find me at www.facebook.com/shane.linder

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#68003 - 01/14/06 02:15 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Do you believe what is written in the book Great Controversy, particularly on pages 563 to 581?
Have you studied the history of the Jesuits and read books about them, such as the book by Malachi Martin called The Jesuits? Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68004 - 01/14/06 02:48 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: res0pgdo]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA

Have you read and do you believe what is written on pages 234, 235, and 563 to 592 of The Great Controversy?
How about being established on truth? No one is asking you to base your beliefs on fear. I have heard people make the same argument against belief in the Bible and in the book of Revelation-- that people who believe these things believe them because of fear. Yes, the Bible warns us of fearful things, but that is because God wants us to know the truth about them for our own good. It's like a parent warning a child about harmful things. What if the child were to say, "Well I am not going to pay attention to my parents' warnings because that would be basing my beliefs on fear"? Wouldn't you agree that such a child would be foolish?
In the case of the Jesuits, it would not be wise to ignore what the Jesuits themselves have said about their reason for being, which includes infiltrating groups for the benefit of the Vatican. Again, go to the library and study. You might want to start with the book by Malachi Martin called The Jesuits.
As to your question who is a Jesuit at Andrews University, I never said there is a Jesuit at that school. I said it is impossible to know but that if there was one anywhere in our schools and churches, we should not be surprised in view of their history, their declared purpose , and what Ellen White wrote in the Great Controversy. (I'm assuming that SDAs still believe in Ellen White as a prophet of God.) Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68005 - 01/14/06 03:26 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: mausman]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Shane,
Read the Great Controversy, pages 234, 235 and 563 to 592. Remember that the basic purpose of the founding and work of the Jesuits is to undo everything that Protestantism accomplished. Every kind of crime is permitted so long as it leads to that objective.
It is true that many in the SDA church question practically everything the church stands for and believes. Based on what Ellen White said would be the condition not long before Christ comes back, when the church will appear as if about to fall, we really ought not to be surprised at this, and we ought to know that it is going to be much worse than it is now.
What do you think is the source of all this confusion in the church? To whose benifit is it that the SDA church is in confusion? Who has stated it as his ambition and purpose to bring all the daughter churches back to the Mother Church? If SDAs lose their vision and understanding of who they are and why the movement exists, then there is no reason not to go back to the Catholic Church, just as pastor of the Crystal Cathedral suggested. If we don't realize what is in the future, it is no one's fault but our own.
By the way, have you read the passages in Ellen White in which she says demons will actually take on human appearance and speak for the purpose of causing doubt and confusion in the church? Do you believe that? Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68006 - 01/14/06 03:43 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: res0pgdo]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
The main reason that God raised up the SDA movement is to give the Three Angels' Messages and prepare those who will listen to get ready for the Second Coming of Christ. There is no way we can do that if we refuse to tell the truth, and that means having a willingness to expose doctrinal error. For instance, if the Roman Catholic system involves an earthly priesthood that is a counterfeit of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, we have to be willing to tell the truth about it or else we are betraying our purpose for being. Do you believe this? Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68007 - 01/14/06 05:55 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Do you believe what is written in the The Great Controversy? Do you believe that God gave visions and dreams to Ellen White and that she wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Please read the pages that I have already referred to in the previous post, and also spend at least a month doing more than a superficial study on the Jesuits. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68008 - 01/14/06 06:05 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: res0pgdo]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Have you read The Keys of This Blood by Malachi Martin? Read that and his book, The Jesuits, as well as the book, The Great Controversy, and then come back for further discussion of this subject. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68009 - 01/14/06 08:30 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10834
Loc: Western United States
Quote:

John317 said:
By the way, have you read the passages in Ellen White in which she says demons will actually take on human appearance and speak for the purpose of causing doubt and confusion in the church?




I think I can understand your concern, Jim, as I remember as a young (SDA) Christian reading the comments from the Spirit of Prophecy re: false doctrines among the believers.
However, long ago it became a settled conviction of my own mind that the best way to counteract false premises of whatever sort, was to become saturated by the Word of God while seeking for and depending upon the Holy Spirit to fulfill the promise of guidance into all truth.
It is true this has not been fully accomplished yet, and I don't expect it to be until the appearing of Jesus at His second coming. But in the meantime Jesus asks me to love those very ones who might try to disrupt the body of Christ by subtle or overt means, just as He did in facing His detractors on the way to the cross.
This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.
The best way for any and all of God's children to protect themselves against the enemy of souls is to know and heed God when He speaks, and the only way that can be accomplished is to be as totally aware as possible of the published writings of His word, while exercising love for each and every soul for whom Jesus spilled His blood.

[:"red"] "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" [/]
Matthew 13:27-30 NASB

Do these words say anything to you? And how best should they be applied? I'm sure many devout Christians have an answer. A system of worship other than what our Lord Jesus Christ instituted should always be differentiated from the genuine. But until Jesus calls for the tares to be separated from the wheat, to be dealt with as He in His justice and complete knowledge knows is best, only love will suffice to meet the emergencies that exist.

[:"red"] "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [/] Ephesians 6:12 KJV

[:"red"] "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible , they shall deceive the very elect." [/] Matthew 24:24 KJV

I believe that little word "if" is used rhetorically, indicating there is no possible way the elect will be deceived. Therefore it is my desire to know the word so well I can find assurance I am listed among the elect, while being able to give assurance to others, they also can find assurance they are on that list.

[:"red"] "And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made. " [/] Rev 13:8 NLT
[:"red"] "And they have defeated him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of their testimony. And they were not afraid to die. " [/] Rev 12:11 NLT

Keep the faith!
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!

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#68010 - 01/14/06 08:55 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Nan Offline
Benevolent Physician


Registered: 04/07/00
Posts: 8270
Loc: Sydney,Australia
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"red"] AMEN, AMEN, AMEN NAOMI [/]

This does not mean to live in ignorance but we also do not need to be sidetracked into searching for 'enemies' behind every bush.

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#68011 - 01/14/06 10:08 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
As far as the Illuminati are concerned, have you read a well-documented book called The Illuminati 666, by William Josiah Sutton? Roy Allen Anderson, a highly-respected Adventist author, teacher, and evangelist, wrote the introduction to it. It is published by TEACH Services, Inc. www.TSIBooks.com You can also get it at the Adventist book stores.
If you were to read it, you would not be so quick to call belief in the Illuminati nonsense. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68012 - 01/14/06 10:15 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Hi Leon,
Thanks for the post. I agree with everything you said here and have taken it to heart. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68013 - 01/15/06 12:45 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Dismissing me with the ol' "you gotta read these books before I will talk with you" is nothing short of insulting, Jim.

I have read the Great Controversy...I have NO interest in reading anything that will feed my own paranoia, ie The Keys of this Blood by some catholic priest.

Third, what you concider "the three angels messages" and why God raised up the SDA Church may be two distinct and separate things and interestingly enough, the Origionator did not include you as to the whys and wherefores, but rather wants you to live within those two distinct separate subjects as if your life depended upon it and to love at the same time. You can't do that if you are fighting something. God did not make you just so that you could fight. Rather, He created you in love, to love, and to witness Him, so that the world can "taste and see that the Lord is Good".

Have you not read the Great Controversy? Better yet, have you not read the Bible?????
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#68014 - 01/15/06 05:35 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
Quote:

John317 said:
...and also spend at least a month doing more than a superficial study on the Jesuits. Jim




Your "passion" for this subject is obvious by the voluminous nature of your posts and your urgent tone, but kindly refrain from making presumptuous statements concerning the extent of other people's knowledge. You simply have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER how much I have or have not read about the Jesuits. I happen to have read Great Controversy cover to cover, and various sections of its latter half over and over on several occasions. I also happen to have read books by Malachi Martin.

The fact that I do not feel compelled to formulate or adopt a conspiracy-theory perspective on the prospect of Jesuits literally slipping into the cracks and slithering between the nooks and crannies of the SDA church as a result does not mean I am unfamiliar with that material. It simply means I have additionally examined the fruits of promulgating such theories and found them sorely wanting, and unworthy of my attention.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot

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#68015 - 01/15/06 05:39 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
Quote:

LifeHiscost said:
I think I can understand your concern, Jim, as I remember as a young (SDA) Christian reading the comments from the Spirit of Prophecy re: false doctrines among the believers.
However, long ago it became a settled conviction of my own mind that the best way to counteract false premises of whatever sort, was to become saturated by the Word of God while seeking for and depending upon the Holy Spirit to fulfill the promise of guidance into all truth.
It is true this has not been fully accomplished yet, and I don't expect it to be until the appearing of Jesus at His second coming. But in the meantime Jesus asks me to love those very ones who might try to disrupt the body of Christ by subtle or overt means, just as He did in facing His detractors on the way to the cross.
This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.
The best way for any and all of God's children to protect themselves against the enemy of souls is to know and heed God when He speaks, and the only way that can be accomplished is to be as totally aware as possible of the published writings of His word, while exercising love for each and every soul for whom Jesus spilled His blood.





Totally excellent post in every respect. Praise God for that light, LHC. You are right on, and said it far better than I did.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot

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#68016 - 01/15/06 06:09 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
Quote:

John317 said:
As far as the Illuminati are concerned, have you read a well-documented book called The Illuminati 666, by William Josiah Sutton? Roy Allen Anderson, a highly-respected Adventist author, teacher, and evangelist, wrote the introduction to it. It is published by TEACH Services, Inc. www.TSIBooks.com You can also get it at the Adventist book stores.
If you were to read it, you would not be so quick to call belief in the Illuminati nonsense. Jim




Jim, if you had read my post carefully you would have realized I did not call belief in the Illuminati nonsense. I called various notions entertained in tandem with that belief nonsense. Secondhand information written from a predetermined agenda rather than objective research is full of just such nonsense.

The actual Order of the Illuminati was formed by German Adam Weishaupt. Jesuit-educated, he broke away from them in 1775 and two years later, became a Freemason. As his attempt to reform Masonry with his own concepts of illuminism were unwelcomed, this led to him founding his own order -- something occultists frequently did (and still do today) when they find themselves at odds with whatever brotherhood or society they have been initiated into. It's basically the occult equivalent of the pattern Protestants follow when they break off from existing denominational orgs -- over doctrinal or practical differences -- to establish new ones.

Discussing the actual aims or purposes of the real Illuminati is pointless with anyone who can't tell the difference between a Freemason and a devil worshipper, or who buys into unrealistic conspiracy theories about the global influence of occult orders in literal, visible geopolitical matters. I find that such misconceptions are usually predicated upon a superstitious and uninformed notion that these organizations are central to some fixed, formulated plan by Satan himself. Anyone with actual firsthand experience in these matters simply knows better.

You'd probably get farther arguing for the destructive influence of the cronyism inherent in bogus frat-brat societies such as Skull and Bones. At least there you'd be closer to the truth.

If you would like to read factual information about the Illuminati, you might want to try the Bavarian Illuminati Primer (click the link).

p.s. To answer your question, yes I have read The Illuminati 666. It's an interesting blend of selective fact-bites and fanciful fiction, typical of those writing secondhand from a predetermined agenda to promote conspiracy theory.
[:"blue"]
11 The LORD spoke to me with his strong hand upon me, warning me not to follow the way of this people. He said:

12 "Do not call conspiracy
everything that these people call conspiracy ;
do not fear what they fear,
and do not dread it.

13 The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread ...
[/]
(Isaiah 8:11-13)

Interesting ... I did not put that icon there on purpose; it occurred because a footnote "[ f ]" was in the text I copied, but it is certainly fitting in this case!

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#68017 - 01/15/06 12:03 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
bevin Offline


Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
If the church government is

  • open
  • implementing the publically developed policies of the GC In Session
  • doing what its membership wants it to do


then it doesn't matter to the church as a whole if the GC president is actually a Female Wicca Priestess, and she and twelve others are having a weekly coven meeting in the Sligo Church.

The answer to conspiracies and takeovers is public setting of direction and transparency.

It is also the answer to incompetence and criminality.

/Bevin

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#68018 - 01/16/06 12:11 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: res0pgdo]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
I certainly meant no insult by telling you to study the issue. I am only pointing out evidence but if you want to avoid it, that is your decision.
I pointed out pages in the Great Controversy that show that the Jesuits were founded with the purpose of defeating and overcoming Protestantism and that the Catholic church today has not really changed fundamentally from what it was in Luther's time. It's goals and its fundamental teachings are identical. I also point out some books that tell the truth about the Jesuits, books written by a man who was once a Jesuit professor in a prestegious Jesuit university. Now, again, if you don't want to look at the evidence, you are free to ignore it, of course.
Yes, I have been studying the Bible and the writings of Ellen White ever since I was baptized into Christ and into God's remnant, commandment keeping church in 1973. Praise God he got me out of my immoral, Devil-serving lifestyle and brought me into His marvellous light where I have far greater pleasures and more joy than I ever experienced when I was allowing Satan to use my body as a weapon against God. I confess openly and unashamedly I love the book Great Controversy-- next to the Bible, it is the book I read most. Before, it was the works of Nietzsche, Karl Marx, Lenin, Leon Trotsky, Jean Genet, and Andre Gide that I loved, but by God's grace, they have been replaced by the Bible and the writings of God's prophet, Ellen G. White. I am not at all ashamed to say that I do believe in the Bible and, therefore, in the writing of Ellen White. I used to count as my close friends people who hated the Bible and made fun of anyone who took it seriously. Today I am glad to accept ridicule also by people who claim to be members of the SDA and who think I have too much faith in the wonderful, God-given writings of Ellen White. So many SDAs don't know how privilaged they are to have those writings. I hope and pray that God will one day open our blind eyes. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68019 - 01/16/06 02:32 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10834
Loc: Western United States
Quote:

Nicodema said:

Totally excellent post in every respect. Praise God for that light, LHC. You are right on, and said it far better than I did.




I feel humbled by your kind response, Nico, and only wish each time I gave comment, it revealed our Savior's love for those for whom He died. I'm looking forward to meeting you, among many others who struggle against the enemy of souls, after God has completed His work in our lives.

[:"red"] "Now to Him Who is able to keep you without stumbling or slipping or falling, and to present [you] unblemished (blameless and faultless) before the presence of His glory in triumphant joy and exultation [with unspeakable, ecstatic delight]-- " [/] Jude 1:24 AMP

Keep looking up!
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!

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#68020 - 01/16/06 02:45 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: Alure19]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10834
Loc: Western United States
Quote:

Nan said:
Quote:

This of course would not mean for the message of warning to be ignored, but it would mean that the primary purpose of the spreading of the gospel should never be ignored while efforts to bring to light its' detractors took precedence. It never furthers the gospel to accept the devils tools to counterattack the gospel's enemies.




[:"red"] AMEN, AMEN, AMEN NAOMI [/]

This does not mean to live in ignorance but we also do not need to be sidetracked into searching for 'enemies' behind every bush.




Thank you for each of your kind comments. May the Lord be praised that we each can and will be used by Him to reveal truth as we yield to His attentive care.

[:"red"] "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." [/] Matthew 5:16 KJV

As Stan would say, courage!
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!

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#68021 - 01/16/06 08:04 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
Quote:

John317 said:
I certainly meant no insult by telling you to study the issue. I am only pointing out evidence but if you want to avoid it, that is your decision.





I notice your response was directed to Neil. However, I would like to point out that examining what you offer as "evidence" I do not feel compelled to form the same conclusions as yourself. I hope you will take the time to read my response to your post on page 1, as well as (if the subject interests you so greatly) doing some actual research on the Illuminati and other such groups instead of reading second-hand fancifully interpreted nonsense written by second-rate paranoid conspiracy-theory inventors looking to sell fear and villianizing sensationalism rather than anything approximating genuine research.

Quote:

John317 said:
I pointed out pages in the Great Controversy that show that the Jesuits were founded with the purpose of defeating and overcoming Protestantism




This is a misconception easily dispelled. Here is an objective statement concerning the actual purpose behind the founding of the Society of Jesus:
  • On August 15, 1534, Ignatius (born Iñigo López de Loyola) and six other students (Francis Xavier, a fellow Basque, Alfonso Salmeron, James Lainez, and Nicholas Bobadilla, Spaniards, Peter Faber from France and Simon Rodrigues, a Portuguese) met in Montmartre outside Paris, probably near the modern Chapel of St Denys, Rue Antoinette, and binding themselves by a vow of poverty and chastity, founded the Society of Jesus – to "enter upon hospital and missionary work in Jerusalem, or to go without questioning wherever the pope might direct".
The name "Jesuit" is actually a perjorative term which the Society gradually came to accept as complimentary:
  • The term "Jesuit" (of fifteenth-century origin, meaning one who used too frequently or appropriated the name of Jesus), was first applied to the Society in reproach (1544-52), and was never employed by its founder, though members and friends of the Society in time accepted the name in its positive meaning.
The notion that the Jesuit Order was founded specifically to defeat and overcome Protestantism is a false argument based upon timing and the success of the Society in establishing colleges and sending forth Catholic missionaries to all parts of the world:
  • The Jesuits were founded just before the Counter-Reformation, a movement whose purpose was to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within and to counter the Protestant Reformers, whose teachings were spreading throughout Catholic Europe. As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience both to scripture and also Roman Catholic doctrine.
(emphasis mine). Note that the Jesuit Order was founded prior to the counter-reformation. Note that the aims and purposes you have ascribed to the Jesuits are actually those of the counter-reformation itself. As for their service to the RCC, naturally a Catholic Society is going to encourage loyalty to the Catholic doctrine and faith. We certainly would not expect a Baptist Society, for example, to encourage people to become Lutherans or Presbyterians; why should we expect a Catholic Society to NOT work for the interest of its "mother church?"

Quote:

John317 said:
... and that the Catholic church today has not really changed fundamentally from what it was in Luther's time. It's goals and its fundamental teachings are identical.




This is true, but again, Catholics believe Catholicism is right, so why should we expect any of that to change? We SDAs believe SDA-ism is right; we're not about to stop pursuing the goals or alter the fundamental teachings of the SDA church either. It's just the way things ARE when one embraces a faith. There's nothing any more sinister about it when Catholics do it for Catholicism than when Baptists do it for Baptist doctrine or SDAs do it for SDA-ism. It's just the way humans behave when they believe their faith is the right way and they are loyal to it.

Quote:

John317 said:
I also point out some books that tell the truth about the Jesuits, books written by a man who was once a Jesuit professor in a prestegious Jesuit university.




Key words: was once. I'm not sitting in judgment on Malachi Martin here in particular; just issuing a general warning that the pattern of the disgruntled departee from a church, cult, faith, organization, etc. is well known. They tend to dish up the dirt and paint everything in the worst light, casting aspersions on wherever they "left from" in order to distance themselves from their past and justify their departure as something noble rather than dissent or disloyalty (as no doubt such doubts occasionally haunt their decision, and are part and parcel with questioning "why on earth was I ever a part of THAT???") So this is not to say that everyone who leaves an organization is trying to spread lies or smear campaign against it; rather that recognizing typical human patterns of dealing with transition can afford us some objectivity here that we would not otherwise have. It is tempting to view the departee as the "Ultimate Expert" on the matters he or she has left behind, but a one-sided story never offers an objective view.

Quote:

John317 said:
Yes, I have been studying the Bible and the writings of Ellen White ever since I was baptized into Christ and into God's remnant, commandment keeping church in 1973. ... I confess openly and unashamedly I love the book Great Controversy-- next to the Bible, it is the book I read most. ... [other books] have been replaced by the Bible and the writings of God's prophet, Ellen G. White. I am not at all ashamed to say that I do believe in the Bible and, therefore, in the writing of Ellen White. ... Today I am glad to accept ridicule also by people who claim to be members of the SDA and who think I have too much faith in the wonderful, God-given writings of Ellen White.




Where on earth is all of THAT coming from? I must have missed something because I have not seen ANYWHERE on this thread where anyone has "ridiculed" you for reading Ellen White or having "faith" in her writings. The problem I see here is not Ellen White nor what is written in the Great Controversy. The problem is that you have a thick layer of nonsense attached to certain passages in the Great Controversy which regurgitate themselves in your thinking whenever you revisit said passages, and cause you to mistakenly believe the content of this thick layer of nonsense is therefore inherent in the text of GC itself. As anyone who reads the same passages and does NOT feel compelled to your conclusions can testify, that content is NOT there. You are doing eisegesis; that is, you are reading INTO that passage what you imagine it to "actually" mean above and beyond what it is actually saying.

That's my diagnosis, anyway. Be that as it may, no one has "ridiculed" you for reading EGW. That's another reason I'm dead set against all this kind of conspiracy-theory nonsense flying about: it engenders residual paranoia in otherwise rational people. The moment anyone disagrees with the conspiracy-theory, the one who has bought into it starts wondering if the other might be a Jesuit (or whatever pet boogeyman is being invoked in the "conspiracy") in disguise. Ludicrous, baseless suspicions get aroused and motives get speculated upon -- this leads to a critical, faultfinding spirit and before one knows it, one is pointing fingers at any and all detractors with the accusation "Jesuit infiltrator!" if not upon the lips than at least resounding secretly in the heart.

Jim, these theories are worse than unfounded; they are spiritually destructive. Obey the counsel of the Lord in Isaiah 8 (quoted in my previous post) and leave them aside.

Nico

=========================
(Quotations above taken from Society of Jesus entry in Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot

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#68022 - 01/16/06 12:21 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Thank you, Nico, for some well founded advice and rebuttles to that nonsense.

The Catholic Priest that I remember talking to had some very pointed and sharp truths about the adventist church...things like the SDA church was paranoid about the Catholic church, specifically Jesuits...And that our church had made assumptions regarding the Catholic church that just plain were not true....Like the pope is the anti-christ, and his tiara [you know what I mean] has 666 on it...and a bunch of other things...So far, finding evidence to counter or support the SDA myths are very sketchy at best.
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#68023 - 01/16/06 06:14 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: res0pgdo]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10834
Loc: Western United States
Quote:

Neil D said:
Thank you, Nico, for some well founded advice and rebuttles to that nonsense.





[:"red"] "For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms." [/] Ephesians 6:12 NLT

[:"red"] "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?" [/] Luke 14:31 NASB

If this be true, and I'm convinced it is, then would it not be wise to leave the battle in the hands of the Person able to win.

[:"red"] "Yet amid all these things we are more than conquerors and gain a surpassing victory through Him Who loved us. " [/] Romans 8:37 AMP

[:"red"] "'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" [/] Matthew 13:30 NASB

Keep the faith!
_________________________
Lift Jesus up!!

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#68024 - 01/17/06 02:29 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Planey Offline


Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 2220
Loc: NSW Australia
Quote:

Nicodema said:

I'm not sitting in judgment on Malachi Martin here in particular; just issuing a general warning that the pattern of the disgruntled departee from a church, cult, faith, organization, etc. is well known.





Malachi Martin was a devout Catholic in very good standing up until his death. His books are in fact written in support of the Church, not to denigrate in any way.

Graeme

release from Fr. Tom Widmer, S.J. at U.S. Jesuit Headquarters in Washington, D.C.
Announcing that former Vicar General of the Jesuits Father Vincent O'Keefe, S.J. has finally admitted that Fr. Malachi Brendan Martin was indeed granted a full and legal dispensation from his Jesuit vows except for chastity and given a perpetual celebret to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in private. Nearly five years after his death, his reputation, so maligned by vicious rumors, innuendos and slander, has been restored. Kennedy's article can be found at High Ranking Jesuit Confirms Malachi Martin’s Status as Life Long Priest.
(from Catholic Daily, Vol 15 No. 105)
_________________________

Graeme

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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#68025 - 01/17/06 02:41 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: Pastor John]
Planey Offline


Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 2220
Loc: NSW Australia
From the end of the article cited in the previous post:

  • This Irish American Catholic priest began as an Indiana Jones type of character in real life, evolved into an Ignatius of Loyola, Saint Francis Xavier type and became one of the great modern writers in the genre of Le Carre and John Grisham with the panache of Thomas Costain possessing an insight into the inner workings of the Church and world politics that no one else could convey. His imagination and grasp of real flesh-and-blood "fictional" characters in his novels not only prodded millions to spend hours page-turning, unable to put his novels down, but, much more importantly, tweaked the consciences of countless converts and Catholics who began to take their faith seriously as a result of many revelations revealed in his books. The scope of the impact of his novels? Only Heaven knows the true story. But now, thanks to the confession of Fr. Vincent O'Keefe, SJ, the world knows of Malachi's priestly perseverance and integrity. That will serve many well in making their peace with God for the atrocities against this talented man have greatly impugned his reputation and dignity over these past 40 years. At last vindication! Forgive them, Father Malachi, as we continue to pray for your soul as though it were in Purgatory. If you have reached the Church Triumphant, then intercede to the Almighty Beatific Vision that more will come forward and tell the truth. Truly the truth will set you free. Fr. O'Keefe is freer today because he freed Fr. Martin from the chains of slander and calumny. Deo gratias. Alleluia.
_________________________

Graeme

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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#68026 - 01/18/06 08:15 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: Pastor John]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
It was my understanding that he had left the Jesuit Order, though. Was that not the case?
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot

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#68027 - 01/19/06 01:34 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
Planey Offline


Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 2220
Loc: NSW Australia
Yes, you are right.

In fact, he had a number of things he disagreed with about parts of the church (including Vatican II, I think - he is pretty much an ultra conservative in Church matters, a la Mel Gibson) but he remained a devout member of the Mother Church.

I believe he was attempting to "reform" from within, rather than attacking from without. His book "The Keys of This Blood" documents the struggle through 1990 for world dominion between Pope John Paul II, Mikhail Gorbachev, and the Capitalist West. Martin wrote from a traditional Roman Catholic perspective and explains why Pope John Paul II personally endorsed evolution in 1996 and exposed his ecumenical agenda publicly.

He also wrote a number of other books such as the expose "The Jesuits" and "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church". His novels tended to be based on the themes of the church, including "Vatican". In "The Keys of This Blood" he stated that there was a Satanic group inside the Vatican and that some of the Vatican rites and ceremonies were strongly Satanic.

Interesting guy.

Graeme
_________________________

Graeme

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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#68028 - 02/11/06 01:20 AM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: Mandy]
Margaret Gray Offline


Registered: 04/04/01
Posts: 1925
Loc: St. Louis, MO
The quickest way to be accused of being a Jesuit is to ask a "Jesuit-hunter" for proof.

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#68029 - 02/12/06 02:29 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
LifeHisCost said, " A system of worship other than what our Lord Jesus Christ instituted should always be differentiated from the genuine. But until Jesus calls for the tares to be separated from the wheat, to be dealt with as He in His justice and complete knowledge knows is best, only love will suffice to meet the emergencies that exist."

I completely agree with your statement. I am only advocating telling the truth about doctrinal error, such as the following false doctrines: the counterfeit high priestly ministry on earth, the Sunday sacredness, the immortality of the soul, prayer to Mary and the saints, the teaching that Jesus saves us in our sins, that the Sabbath was done away with at the cross, the so-called secret rapture, and the teaching that the book of Revelation deals primarily with events during the first century or else that it mostly deals with events that happen after the rapture, etc. I also believe that an important part of the truth is telling people why the Jesuits were organized, which was for the purpose of undoing everything that Protestantism has accomplished. Of course we should always be careful to teach the truth with love, but we dare not allow fear of giving offense to keep us from telling the truth clearly as it is in Jesus. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68030 - 02/12/06 02:50 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: ]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Quote:

Nicodema said:
Quote:

John317 said:
...and also spend at least a month doing more than a superficial study on the Jesuits. Jim




Your "passion" for this subject is obvious by the voluminous nature of your posts and your urgent tone, but kindly refrain from making presumptuous statements concerning the extent of other people's knowledge. You simply have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER how much I have or have not read about the Jesuits. I happen to have read Great Controversy cover to cover, and various sections of its latter half over and over on several occasions. I also happen to have read books by Malachi Martin.

The fact that I do not feel compelled to formulate or adopt a conspiracy-theory perspective on the prospect of Jesuits literally slipping into the cracks and slithering between the nooks and crannies of the SDA church as a result does not mean I am unfamiliar with that material. It simply means I have additionally examined the fruits of promulgating such theories and found them sorely wanting, and unworthy of my attention.




All I have said is that if you are familiar with the history of the Jesuits and have read what Ellen White says about them and about the intentions of the Roman Catholic Church, we should not be surprised if they have infiltrated the SDA church or other organizations for the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican. It should be kept in mind that the Jesuit were first founded as a result of the Protestant Reformation and as part of the counterreformation movement within the Roman Catholic Church designed for the express purpose of defeating the Reformation. Jim
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#68031 - 02/12/06 03:42 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Nicodema Offline

Past the 700 posts

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
Wheat, tares, harvest. I prefer to follow the Lord's counsel and set my mind on things that are productive.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot

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#68032 - 02/12/06 04:15 PM Re: Are there really Jesuits in the Church? [Re: proud2bsda]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:


All I have said is that if you are familiar with the history of the Jesuits and have read what Ellen White says about them and about the intentions of the Roman Catholic Church, we should not be surprised if they have infiltrated the SDA church or other organizations for the purpose of influencing them for the benifit of the Vatican. It should be kept in mind that the Jesuit were first founded as a result of the Protestant Reformation and as part of the counterreformation movement within the Roman Catholic Church designed for the express purpose of defeating the Reformation. Jim




A couple of years ago, I went to a forum with a very rude catholic priest on it. He liked to put down the protestant doctrines and did so with relish. When he found out that I was a SDA, he railed against Adventists with comments like "You Adventists are so concerned with us Catholics. You think that we would subvert your denomonation..What a self centered egotistical offshoot You guys aren't even on the radar. Other protestant denomonations are of more of a concern than you are!" Now, wether he was telling the truth or not, I have no idea. but his accusation of us being self-centered egotistical in believing that the Jesuits are infultration the church was right on the money. For us to be concerned more about the Jesuits than about Christ can only mean that we are more concerned about man than about God.

It has beem my observation that if we are more concerned about Christ, then about anyting else [the devil or catholics or whatever] God will defend us more than we will ever know.....I tend to believe that He will honor us if we are more concerned about Him....
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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