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The Test of Discipleship

"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17.

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.

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We are moving on to the next chapter of "Steps to Christ".

It is this change that takes place in our lives that is the real test of whether we are a disciple of Christ or not.

How does this change come in our lives? What is it that brings it about?

God bless

Beryl

Ooooo, there's that word- test

I don't know about you, but I like to be affirmed all the time. I don't like to be tested

Heheheh, me too, Gail. Just affirm me, don't test me, K? thx.

Hey, girls! You've forgotten something!!!

Just re-read this part of the quote:-

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Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God.

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Who is responsible for the changes in our lives, in the making of a disciple?

Correct. It is the Holy Spirit!

And does He work on all of us at the same pace? Nope! He treats us each as an individual.

What if Gail doesn't progress at the same rate as Nico? Is that Gail's fault? No -- not unless she is not allowing the Holy Spirit to get on with His work.

About 4 or 5 years ago I began "friendship evangelism" with two ladies. Two years ago one of these ladies was baptised, and is a faithful member of her local church. The other one? Well, there has been a decided change in her attitude, but church attendance is still a long way off (or, so it seems). But, she is now "keeping Sabbath" in her own way in her own home, and other changes have very gradually taken place. She is of Danish origin, and admits to an inherent stubbornness, but in our small group we have seen a gradual melting of that stubbornness, and a gradual change in her life.

Just yesterday she actually said, "I think the Holy Spirit knows He is dealing with a stubborn person here, but I am gradually changing." And it shows.

You see, we are all individuals, and when we are dealing with the souls of persons, we need to recognise this fact and not try to push people along faster than the Holy Spirit sees that they can travel.

Going back over what we have covered this far in Steps to Christ, my understanding is that our task is to believe (John 3:16) (when the Holy Spirit convicts us), and then it is God Who leads us to repentance, confession, consecration, discipleship, etc. In other words, our salvation is 100% God's work -- except that we keep wanting to get our sticky fingers into the process, by wondering what "work" we have to do.

The test of discipleship is not, as some feel, a test of "how good we are", but rather a test of how willing we are to let the Holy Spirit work in our lives.

Now, that is something else! Relax -- but be wary of the devil -- and let God have His way!

God bless you both

Beryl

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Going back over what we have covered this far in Steps to Christ, my understanding is that our task is to believe (John 3:16) (when the Holy Spirit convicts us), and then it is God Who leads us to repentance, confession, consecration, discipleship, etc. In other words, our salvation is 100% God's work -- except that we keep wanting to get our sticky fingers into the process, by wondering what "work" we have to do.

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I don't believe we can choose to believe something. For example, can you choose to believe that you no longer need to eat food to survive? Either we believe it to be true or we don't based on experience. Its nuts to sit and say I believe over and over without exploring to see if it is indeed true.

I find that if we really were honest with ourselves we would have doubts about many things that supposedly are pillars of belief. If something is really true, it will stand up to the test of experience. It doesn't have to hide behind the wall of authority, shame, manipulation, or force.

Richard

When it comes to what we end up believing, it is not quite so important what we experience as rather what we end up telling ourselves about what we experience.

At least, I have found it to be so in my experience.

Or is that only what I've told myself is so?

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I find that if we really were honest with ourselves we would have doubts about many things that supposedly are pillars of belief. If something is really true, it will stand up to the test of experience. It doesn't have to hide behind the wall of authority, shame, manipulation, or force.

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Good morning, Richard (or, at least, it is morning here!

Just a quick answer here, and I will be back later today with an answer for your question in the "Faith and Acceptance" forum.

It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are looking at this question of believing in connection with what you believe. God is not asking what we believe. It is all about Who we believe in. That is my understanding of Scripture.

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life...Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life..."

John 1:12 "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the RIGHT to become children of God."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned;..."

John 6:29 "Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent."

John 6:40 "For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life,..."

Jesus never said to believe in what the church teaches (whatever church or religion you may refer to) He just asks you to believe in Him, and in doing so you will allow His Representative, the Holy Spirit, to guide you.

Richard, a very interesting exercise which I enjoyed has been to go through the Gospel of John, and underline every word "believe" (or its derivatives). Just see what or Who you are to believe.

Personally, I believe that this church has the truth for this time, but that belief and/or practice will never save me. It is only my personal belief in Jesus my Saviour that will see me through to heaven.

May God continue to bless you,

Beryl

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It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are looking at this question of believing in connection with what you believe. God is not asking what we believe. It is all about Who we believe in. That is my understanding of Scripture.

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There is a belief in the ancient world. When you name something you gain power over it. I believe that is one reason that Jewish philosophers never gave God a name that meant anything or could mean anything and everything. So when asked to believe in a Who that Who generally has a name and a series of assumptions about Who that person is.

I don't believe that is a good practice with God or people either. The assumption about who they are, their motivations, intentions, etc. I'm not saying you are suggesting this, but when we are asked to believe in a person these things then come into play.

In Adventism it is generally assumed that we are believing in a God defined by Ellen White. If you don't believe this, just try defining God outside of her perceptions of God and see how long you hold a job in the denomination.

To me, God is beyond any definition or assumption because the moment one thinks they have God nailed down something happens to shatter that. Pain and suffering shatters most definitions of God anyone offers up. Pain is the great equalizer. In those moments of pain and suffering priorities become readily apparent. In those moments any illusion of control is gone. The problem in those moments, any explanation of why God allows pain holds no comfort and sounds rather trivial.

That is why I have learned that a belief is not enough. In those moments I need to know. I'm not talking about a mental knowing. I need to know on a much deeper level than that.

I really believe that Jesus was talking more about trust. I can choose to open myself up to possibility through trust. In each moment I can choose to trust that it will work out or I can dispair. I happen to be about life, so I choose to trust and wait and see how it works out. If I am about death then I can choose to dispair.

When we strip all the theology, denominational layers of control, investments in particular outcomes, and personal fears I really believe that it comes down to this choice. Do I trust or dispair. This was essentially Job's choice. After all the debates, all the judgements, and all the shame, this is the moment by moment choice regardless of religious belief.

And I believe this is why Jesus said over and over all we have to do is trust. This is a trust that is not invested in outcomes, because any outcome we invest in will eventually fail in some moment. It is a trust that is not invested in any particular picture of God. It is not a trust in some God we explain from scripture or Ellen White. It must be a trust in a God that is real in the world of day to day experience that is redefined each moment in time.

That is my experience...

Richard

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When it comes to what we end up believing, it is not quite so important what we experience as rather what we end up telling ourselves about what we experience.

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You are exactly right. The same thing is present in reading scripture or Ellen White. It is what we tell ourselves about the words we read.

This is the paradox of trying to explain God in words and ideas. It is why theology will never work.

If we are to be a part of God then it must take all of our awareness to come in contact with that. It has to be deeper than ideas. When I talk about experience it is past what I tell myself about it. When I begin to take experience and put it into words the experience is lost. Our explanation is only a shadow. Experience must include body, spirit, and mind. When I refer to body I am refering to all the sensory information that a body brings. Feelings, sensations, desire, and a whole series of subtle awarenesses that have no life in words. Words only include mind. And Spirit is so far past any words that one can only know this from the experience of it.

When I stay in words it is because I feel safe there. I can control words. Spirit has no controls and that is probably why most of us fear it. The body and mind have a certain illusion of control, but are essentially driven by the Spirit.

I have found it better to not tell myself anything about essential spiritual experiences, but simply let them define themselves as my life reveals those mysteries.

To Trust, and then To Know.

Richard

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It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on?

Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things.

Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3: 3, 4.

There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation. If he restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, confess his sins, and love God and his fellow men, the sinner may be sure that he has passed from death unto life.

When, as erring, sinful beings, we come to Christ and become partakers of His pardoning grace, love springs up in the heart. Every burden is light, for the yoke that Christ imposes is easy. Duty becomes a delight, and sacrifice a pleasure. The path that before seemed shrouded in darkness, becomes bright with beams from the Sun of Righteousness.

The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around.

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Here is described not a sudden change, but what has often been described as "the work of a lifetime".

So often people become discouraged when they look at the life of Christ and realise how weak and sinful we are, and, unfortunately some will either become discouraged and give up, or they will turn into absolute "legalists" setting out to earn their own salvation.

The devil is not worried which path we take -- so long as we do not rely wholly on Christ to perform the changes in our lives. He works with each one individually, at the pace that hHe knows they can follow.

God bless,

Beryl