If You Were a Jesuit....

Posted by: teresaq(sda)

If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 02:51 PM

if you were a jesuit and wanted to infiltrate the church and gain their absolute trust, what would you do?

what would be absolute guarantees to gain acceptance?
Posted by: SivartM

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 02:55 PM

I'd probably get on some Adventist forums and act very pious and conservative. Nobody would suspect me. :)
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 02:58 PM

Yes SivartM. I would outwardly agree with all the principles of conservatism. I would judge those who disagree with me. I would tell them where they are going if they don't shape up and obey.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:08 PM

I'd take off my clerical collar.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:32 PM

Join the church.
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:33 PM

would proclaiming yourself a converted jesuit that believes in the sabbath and giving the "dirt" on the papacy, do it?
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:38 PM


This isn't a good topic for discussion, IMHO. It feeds off of people's fears of imaginary Jesuit infiltration of the SDA church. I really don't think the Jesuits are interested in infiltrating the church. They have better things to do with their time. Just ask Stan.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:39 PM

Now you disappoint me ...
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)
would proclaiming yourself a converted jesuit that believes in the sabbath and giving the "dirt" on the papacy, do it?


I doubt it. People have an inordinate fear of Jesuits. I gave up witchcraft, but there are still some people in the church who keep themselves away from me because they think I still practice it. It's hard to shed an image once you've been labelled.
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:48 PM

if you wanted to be influential from the top down, i mean.
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:50 PM

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)
would proclaiming yourself a converted jesuit that believes in the sabbath and giving the "dirt" on the papacy, do it?


I doubt it. People have an inordinate fear of Jesuits. I gave up witchcraft, but there are still some people in the church who keep themselves away from me because they think I still practice it. It's hard to shed an image once you've been labelled.
what about walter veith?
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:51 PM

go to seminary and become a pastor, then work yourself into a position of authority within a conference, then a union, then on to the GC.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:55 PM

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)
would proclaiming yourself a converted jesuit that believes in the sabbath and giving the "dirt" on the papacy, do it?


Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
I doubt it. People have an inordinate fear of Jesuits. I gave up witchcraft, but there are still some people in the church who keep themselves away from me because they think I still practice it. It's hard to shed an image once you've been labelled.
Originally Posted By: teresaq
what about walter veith?


what about him? I don't know much about him except that I've listened to a DVD of him...I wasn't impressed.
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 03:58 PM

hes a "converted" jesuit. got in at the top, immediately.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 04:07 PM

I can't find anywhere that states Veith was a Jesuit priest.. Do you have the info?
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 04:46 PM

well, that shows that everybody has to be checked out!

a couple of years ago he was being discussed somewhere and it was said that he was an ex-jesuit who had been "converted".

i had spent years collecting info on the papacy, etc., but had finally realized that after all that time while there had been some growth in my life i was not really any closer to being like those id seen who i wanted what they had. so i stopped having anything to do with the conspiracies, etc.

not that i discount them

the point being that veith was being discussed but i had no interest in checking him out since everything he has to "share" can be found elsewhere, and some is so inconsequential as to be unimportant, for one thing. and for another i needed to study Christ more instead of this fallen system.

by beholding we become.

it just never occurred to me to check the veracity of whether he was an ex-jesuit priest turned adventist. my apologies for that. as i said, apparently everyone has to be checked out regarding what they say about anything. :(
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 04:50 PM

Quote:
I wasn't impressed.


Me neither
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 04:55 PM

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)
well, that shows that everybody has to be checked out!

a couple of years ago he was being discussed somewhere and it was said that he was an ex-jesuit who had been "converted".

i had spent years collecting info on the papacy, etc., but had finally realized that after all that time while there had been some growth in my life i was not really any closer to being like those id seen who i wanted what they had. so i stopped having anything to do with the conspiracies, etc.

not that i discount them

the point being that veith was being discussed but i had no interest in checking him out since everything he has to "share" can be found elsewhere, and some is so inconsequential as to be unimportant, for one thing. and for another i needed to study Christ more instead of this fallen system.

by beholding we become.

it just never occurred to me to check the veracity of whether he was an ex-jesuit priest turned adventist. my apologies for that. as i said, apparently everyone has to be checked out regarding what they say about anything. :(


All I know is that he has a doctorate in zoology. Not sure how that qualifies him.
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)
well, that shows that everybody has to be checked out!

a couple of years ago he was being discussed somewhere and it was said that he was an ex-jesuit who had been "converted".

i had spent years collecting info on the papacy, etc., but had finally realized that after all that time while there had been some growth in my life i was not really any closer to being like those id seen who i wanted what they had. so i stopped having anything to do with the conspiracies, etc.

not that i discount them

the point being that veith was being discussed but i had no interest in checking him out since everything he has to "share" can be found elsewhere, and some is so inconsequential as to be unimportant, for one thing. and for another i needed to study Christ more instead of this fallen system.

by beholding we become.

it just never occurred to me to check the veracity of whether he was an ex-jesuit priest turned adventist. my apologies for that. as i said, apparently everyone has to be checked out regarding what they say about anything. :(


Not to start anything, but isn't that how gossip gets itself started? Someone saying something about someone that they have only heard and than passing this on as being gospel. At least rudywoofs checked it out found nothing to that fact and stated this. I think if we make a statement that will hurt someone we need to be able to show the facts also. It just might be true but it would be great to have the facts on that.

pk
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 08:19 PM

thumbsup
Not sure why this subject is being revived!!
Posted by: aldona

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

This isn't a good topic for discussion, IMHO. It feeds off of people's fears of imaginary Jesuit infiltration of the SDA church. I really don't think the Jesuits are interested in infiltrating the church. They have better things to do with their time. Just ask Stan.


I'm a member of my local Amnesty International chapter. One time the guest speaker at one of our meetings was a Jesuit priest. He spoke about his (and his fellow priests') work helping current and former prisoners, refugees, and homeless street people. He seemed like a very kind, humble man.

If this is the sort of people who are alleged to be infiltrating the church, and the agenda that they are pushing - I say "bring it on", the church desperately needs them.

aldona
Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 10:35 PM

We should all be members of the society of Jesus and go about doing good as he did...
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 10:38 PM

so what is the worst a Jesuit could do?
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 10:42 PM

well, it seems to me he could get our eyes focused on conspiracies and what is going on in the world and far, far, from Jesus.

or are we doing that all by ourselves? :)
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 10:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
so what is the worst a Jesuit could do?


You mean as a member, or as president of the GC?

(not saying he is one, or that they even exist)

Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 10:54 PM

SD Adventists, even Walter Veith, are tame on the subject of Jesuits, compared to Eric J Phelps, and others like him.

There's an sda Pastor who wrote a book entitled "Secret Terrorists" or something like that. I"ve forgotten his name. The name can be googled up. It is posted on the internet.

I 've heard an seen testimonies of people who have experienced such infiltration at adventist colleges and other places. I don't expect that to hold much water here. There is the sda church, then there are sda like msg boards. The two are only slightly connected IMO.

DB
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 11:12 PM

I just googled his name. ...Wow.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 11:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
so what is the worst a Jesuit could do?


You mean as a member, or as president of the GC?

(not saying he is one, or that they even exist)



Either...


realizing that changing anything takes a zillion votes and study sessions..
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/17/10 11:47 PM

and a bazillion committees
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 12:04 AM

Quote:
There is the sda church, then there are sda like msg boards. The two are only slightly connected IMO.

??????Elaboration...perhaps?
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 12:32 AM

"Welcome to the UNOFFICIAL worldwide adventist forum".


It doesn't take a mensa membership to take it from there..
Posted by: 'nuff sed

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 09:04 AM

Jesuit infiltration???? What a bunch of baloney..( Maybe the rumour started when someone saw my Drivers' License with my picture wearing a Clerical collar... or my key chain with the picture of the Pope) <g> Sometimes I do wear a clerical collar instead of full uniform in my work as Chaplain in the Sheriff's Department. For me it is my 'alternative uniform'...and there is no doubt as to 'what' I am. It is some fun, however, when I run into Adventists who know me...............<g>
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 10:07 AM

Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 10:58 AM

Posted by: SivartM

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 11:27 AM

Shouldn't we be worried about REAL problems in the church?
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 11:35 AM

Good Point SivartM. Some spend so much time and energy on conspiracies and imaginary problems ... that they real hard core needs are left unaddressed.
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 11:45 AM

I didn't create this thread, and you were not all that concerned with REAL problems in the church when you posted in this thread earlier.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 01:54 PM

Originally Posted By: Kountzer
I didn't create this thread, and you were not all that concerned with REAL problems in the church when you posted in this thread earlier.


Don't be surprised Kountzer, like the man said in the beginning of the first video: "Whenever this subject is brought up, it is often just dismissed, ignored, or brushed aside". He is right. Thank you for posting the two videos.

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who shall secretly bring in destructive heresies,........

2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they draw to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,.......

When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. {GC88 234}

Why do people prefer to believe that Satan has no interest in God's true church, and has chosen to just leave us alone now that his time is short?
Posted by: SivartM

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 02:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Why do people prefer to believe that Satan has no interest in God's true church, and has chosen to just leave us alone now that his time is short?
I think he can do that quite effectively from within without needing Jesuits.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 02:15 PM

Originally Posted By: SivartM
Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Why do people prefer to believe that Satan has no interest in God's true church, and has chosen to just leave us alone now that his time is short?
I think he can do that quite effectively from within without needing Jesuits.


I agree with SivartM!!!
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 02:18 PM

Quote:
By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. {GC88 234}


you might notice this was written in the past tense
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 03:07 PM

I agree with that also. I was thinking along those lines before it was posted. Still, that doesn't elminate the fact that there probably is such a thing as Jesuit tampering. Look at it this way, it is s stated goal of the catholic church to control this world both temporally and ecclesiatically. They have stated this historically for years. Not only have they said it, but they have been working behind the scenes to make it happen. The bible states that the whole world will wonder after the beast. The SOP says that also. It has been proven clearly through prophecy exactly who the beast is.

There is also ample evidence, circumstantial and otherwise that shows that just about every government and institution in this world has been infiltrated by the Jesuits. It is only logical that the same has happened in this church. I don't have any hard evidence. Nor do I worry about it. I feel that God is in control, that it will all work out in the end.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 03:19 PM

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
Quote:
By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. {GC88 234}


you might notice this was written in the past tense


So it is. But now, you're trying to say that they have abandoned what has worked so well for them. That doesn't make any sense. Why would they do that? Do you really believe they have given up, and quit?
Do you not believe Bible prophecy, about the mark of the beast, and what is to happen just before Jesus' return?

Do you believe Jesus is coming soon, or at all?

Is this past tense?

2Pe 2:1 ...there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,...
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 04:06 PM

I think the Jesuits have other fish to fry than Adventist tuno.

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook


Do you not believe Bible prophecy, about the mark of the beast, and what is to happen just before Jesus' return?

Do you believe Jesus is coming soon, or at all?

Is this past tense?

2Pe 2:1 ...there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,...


What kind of questions are these? They're insulting to me.
Posted by: SivartM

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 04:15 PM

Latest hot children's book at the ABC:

"Mommy, is our Conference President a Jesuit?"
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 08:11 PM

Quote:
There is the sda church, then there are sda like msg boards. The two are only slightly connected IMO.


Still not making yourself clear...the statement by itself says nothing, what exactly are you trying to say??
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 08:14 PM

It was meant to be insulting, as you have noticed. It is the favorite 'redirect' technique of those who do not wish to answer...they seek to change the focus away from them self and to put you on the defensive. Lame.... yucky
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 08:26 PM

What I said was quite plain, there is little or no connection between the sda church and sda like forums, such as club adventist. The official church does not want to be connected, or associated with the opionions and ideas expressed in forums. About the only connection is some members of churches are members of forums. That's it.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 08:27 PM

Originally Posted By: CoAspen
It is the favorite 'redirect' technique of those who do not wish to answer...


Answer what?
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Kountzer
What I said was quite plain, there is little or no connection between the sda church and sda like forums, such as club adventist. The official church does not want to be connected, or associated with the opionions and ideas expressed in forums. About the only connection is some members of churches are members of forums. That's it.


I found it quite easy to understand, the way you said it the first time. But maybe this will help spell it out for some.
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 09:28 PM

This subject of Jesuit infiltration has been around for years, decades even. I've never heard anyone preach about it in person. I've heard the topic come up after church on occasions. I usually hear about it on forums like this one. I've heard some prominent names mentioned, but I haven't read enough, or done enough research to prove anything.

I think the subject is more than plausible. The idea that this church is somehow too small and insignificant for infiltration is not correct. This church is significant because of it's doctrinal beliefs, especially on the sabbath. The so called mother church knows where her real oppostion is located.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 09:47 PM

That's right, she does.
Posted by: Steve Billiter

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 10:09 PM

Interesting videos back there. I believe Jesuit infiltration happens. EGW has shown us the track of Satan's thinking.

You may this interesting:

Chap. 31 - Satan's Planning Session

As the people of God approach the perils of the last days, Satan holds earnest consultation with his angels as to the most successful plan of overthrowing their faith. He sees that the popular churches are already lulled to sleep by his deceptive power. By pleasing sophistry and lying wonders he can continue to hold them under his control. Therefore he directs his angels to lay their snares especially for those who are looking for the second advent of Christ and endeavoring to keep all the commandments of God. {CS 154.1}

Says the great deceiver: "We must watch those who are calling the attention of the people to the Sabbath of Jehovah; they will lead many to see the claims of the law of God; and the same light which reveals the true Sabbath, reveals also the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and shows that the last work for man's salvation is now going forward. Hold the minds of the people in darkness till that work is ended, and we shall secure the world and the church also. . . . {CS 154.2}

"Go, make the possessors of lands and money drunk with the cares of this life. Present the world before them in its most attractive light, that they may lay up their treasure here, and fix their affections upon earthly things. We must do our utmost to prevent those who labor in God's cause from obtaining means to use against us. Keep the money in our own ranks. The more means they obtain, the more they will injure our kingdom by taking from us our subjects. Make them care more for money than for the upbuilding of Christ's kingdom and the spread of the truths we hate, and we need not fear their influence; for we know that
155
every selfish, covetous person will fall under our power, and will finally be separated from God's people."-- TM 472-474. {CS 154.3}

Worse Than Earthly Loss

Satan is the archdeceiver. The results to us of accepting his temptations are worse than any earthly loss that can be realized, yes, worse than death itself. Those who purchase success at the fearful cost of submission to the will and plans of Satan, will find that they have made a hard bargain. Everything in Satan's trade is secured at a high price. The advantages he presents are a mirage. The high hopes he holds out are secured at the loss of things that are good and holy and pure. Let Satan be always confounded by the word, "It is written." "Blessed is everyone that feareth the Lord: that walketh in His ways. For thou shalt eat the labor of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee." . . . {CS 155.1}
The path cast up for the ransomed of the Lord is far above all worldly schemes and practices. Those who walk in it are to show by their works the purity of their principles.--Signs, Feb. 24, 1909. {CS 155.2}

A Dwarfed Religious Experience

The wealthy are tempted to employ their means in self-indulgence, in the gratification of appetite, in personal adornment, or in the embellishment of their homes. For these objects professed Christians do not hesitate to spend freely, and even extravagantly. But when solicited to give to the Lord's treasury, to build up His cause, and to carry forward His work in the earth, many demur. The countenance that was all aglow with interest in plans for self-gratification, does not light up with joy when the cause of God appeals
156
to their liberality. Perhaps, feeling that they cannot well do otherwise, they dole out a limited sum, far smaller than they freely spend for needless indulgence. But they manifest no real love for Christ, no earnest interest in the salvation of precious souls. What marvel that the Christian life of this class is at best but a dwarfed and sickly existence! Unless such persons change their course, their light will go out in darkness. --R. & H., May 16, 1882. {CS 155.3}


Yes, satan will inspire his agents, the Jesuits, to infiltrate Adventism!
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/18/10 11:37 PM

Unless I missed something, I didn't see anything remotely connected to Jesuit infiltration of the church in the above post.
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 12:14 AM

Ya! But where would we be without 'cut and paste'? Maybe some real discussion? Nah...that would be to simple!!
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 12:39 AM

I'll take Steve's cut and paste over your deepest thoughts anyday.
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 01:39 AM

im sorry for that very heartless comment, coaspen. it was not based on truth and reality but was just a heartless zinger as in "i wannna hurt you because i disagree with you most of the time".
Posted by: teresaq(sda)

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 01:42 AM

Originally Posted By: Kountzer
This church is significant because of it's doctrinal beliefs, especially on the sabbath. The so called mother church knows where her real oppostion is located.
i think you might be mistaken about that.
Posted by: abelisle

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 10:06 AM

Looks like I'm the only one here who has had significant interaction with real Jesuits. The bottom line is that the ones I know are genuinely very humble, kind, spiritual and very smart. But let me start from the beginning.

In 1984 I applied for and received an NEH (National Endowment for the Humanities) Fellowship to study Medieval Scholastic Philosophy at Fordham University (the Rose Hill campus in the Bronx, NYC). It just so happens to be the largest Jesuit community in the northeastern US. My professor was a Jesuit: Ewert Cousins. Our primary focus was on Augustine, Bonaventure and Meister Eckhart.

When I first showed up at a gathering room on campus with my fellow "Fellows", I was seated next to an older gentleman dressed in non-descript clothing and who was very quiet and gave off an unremarkable persona. It turned out that he was our professor. What happened next is quite funny and interesting.

My wife and I were invited to a new Fellows dinner at Loyola Hall where the Jesuits resided. I must say they do have a very elaborate lifestyle when it comes to their dining. Their living quarters on the other hand are quite bare. During the course of our sumptuous dinner, the abbot asked us what the topics would be for our papers. When I told him that I was planning to write about the early visionary writings of E.G. White, the table got very quiet. No one spoke and with a gleeful look on his face, he said, "Ellen Gould White!, please make sure I get a copy of your paper on my desk."

I learned over the next 6 weeks that they know more about us than most Adventists do. This talk I hear about Jesuit infiltration is a joke. They don't need to infiltrate us. We manage quite well to do our own damage, thank you. bwink

At no time was there any disrespect, derision, insults or aspersions cast upon my beliefs. I made good friends with my professor and even served as a guest lecturer in the department of Classical Studies lecturing on modern physics and the mystical tradition. He has invited me to his house and asked me to serve on his selection committee for future fellowship seminars. At one time he served at the UN setting up a spiritual summit conference

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:mlH6sZ1_S7sJ:www.cathnewsusa.com/uploads/images/2009/06/Ewert.Cousins.Obituary.doc+ewert+cousins&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

He died last year. He was a good man. I will miss him. Will there be Jesuits in heaven? I don't know but if there are, I'm sure he'll be there.

Alex
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook
I'll take Steve's cut and paste over your deepest thoughts anyday.


This is down right RUDE. Or perhaps I should use a stronger word.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Redwood
Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook
I'll take Steve's cut and paste over your deepest thoughts anyday.


This is down right RUDE. Or perhaps I should use a stronger word.


Use any word you want. How was that any ruder than his sarcastic remark about cut and paste? Which by the way, is about the only kind of remark I ever see from him. If he doesn't have something cutting, snide, or sarcastic to say, then he usually doesn't say anything.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:02 PM

Being rude to someone just because one thinks THEY are rude ... doesn't help the atmosphere here does it?
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:10 PM

Richard. One technique that I use to be rude ... is to parrot back the exact words back at someone. For instance ... if someone tells me I am not going to be saved - I parrot it back to them and tell them ... THEY are not going to be saved.

What this does is to show how childish the first statement was. Sure it might put you at risk for looking childish yourself ... but I think it's worth the risk.

Just a few Redwood gems for today. :)
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: RichardH
I'll take Steve's cut and paste over your deepest thoughts anyday.


Richard, that WAS rude, IMO.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:15 PM

Hi Pam - ntmomitf/iwiwd

Just wanted to say that I am glad you are able to put aside the ntmomitf/iwiwd even though that is how you feel. We ALL benefit from you being here. :)
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Abelisle
Looks like I'm the only one here who has had significant interaction with real Jesuits


No, you're not. I went to school at Seattle University for a year. It's a Jesuit university. All my professors were Jesuits. And they were all very nice and kind-hearted.

Like I've said, they have better things to do than infiltrate the SDA church.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Just wanted to say that I am glad you are able to put aside the ntmomitf/iwiwd even though that is how you feel. We ALL benefit from you being here. :)


thanks, Redwood
Posted by: aldona

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:42 PM

Quote:
Looks like I'm the only one here who has had significant interaction with real Jesuits.


With all due respect, no, you're not - see my post a few pages back, and see Pam's post above.

And you will notice that all of us who have actually met and interacted with real live Jesuits are firm in our belief that the whole SDA-infiltration conspiracy is wrong.

aldona
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 03:56 PM

Just because they are nice people has no bearing whatsoever on the intentions and actions of the organization. If you're waiting to spot a mean one, before you believe they could possibly have any ill intentions or ulterior motives, then you will be waiting a long time.

That's like saying all witches have to have a hooked nose, and warts on their face. Come on!

So far the only case that has been made that they are not what history says they are, is that they are such nice people.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 04:03 PM

Originally Posted By: Richard
That's like saying all witches have to have a hooked nose, and warts on their face. Come on!



Originally Posted By: Richard
So far the only case that has been made that they are not what history says they are, is that they are such nice people.

No, so far the only case that has been made {is] that they are not NOW what history says they WERE. There's a difference.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 04:21 PM

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
No, so far the only case that has been made {is] that they are not NOW what history says they WERE.


Because they are such nice people.

I can see where that takes it out of the realm of possibility. What was I thinking?
Posted by: abelisle

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 04:26 PM

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook
Just because they are nice people has no bearing whatsoever on the intentions and actions of the organization. If you're waiting to spot a mean one, before you believe they could possibly have any ill intentions or ulterior motives, then you will be waiting a long time.

That's like saying all witches have to have a hooked nose, and warts on their face. Come on!

So far the only case that has been made that they are not what history says they are, is that they are such nice people.


As to the intentions and actions of the organization, I, nor anyone, even Jesuits (unless they are at the highest levels of the order) can answer. I specifically addressed this issue and two items were mentioned to me: 1)that there would be a concentrated effort to work in China and 2) that a "Aquarian" program/plan/ideology was going into effect for a world-wide ecumenical movement.

When I responded that Jews, Adventists and Muslims would be a stumbling block to their plans, I was told in a very calm voice that they weren't worried and that these issues would be worked out.

As to how this affects their "niceness" you will have to be the judge of that.

Alex
Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 06:49 PM

So what you are saying, Richard, is the test of the Spirit, "By their fruits you shall know them" has no relevence?
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
So what you are saying, Richard, is the test of the Spirit, "By their fruits you shall know them" has no relevence?



Try not to put words in my mouth Tom, if you can help it. Their fruits are in the history books, and in Ellen Whites writings.

If someone is able to be nice to you in a certain situation, do you go away thinking that you now know enough about them to say you have tested their fruits?

The pen of inspiration tells us about these people, along with the history books. She (EGW) says they do not change, although they want the world to think they have. I guess I am just dumb enough to believe the prophet, while everybody else is saying:

"But look at them, they're nice people now. They do good works. There is no way they could ever do those things again. They even said so, with a calm gentle voice."

Come on Tom, I know you can think deeper than that.

Lets say a habitual rapist pulls ten years in prison, and gets out early, on a technicality. What are his fruits? the fact that he raped 18 women, or the smile that he has on his face right now?

Don't confuse outward appearances with fruit.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 07:39 PM

Quote:
As to how this affects their "niceness" you will have to be the judge of that.


And I'm sure he will.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: abelisle
Looks like I'm the only one here who has had significant interaction with real Jesuits. The bottom line is that the ones I know are genuinely very humble, kind, spiritual and very smart. But let me start from the beginning.

In 1984 I applied for and received an NEH (National Endowment for the Humanities) Fellowship to study Medieval Scholastic Philosophy at Fordham University (the Rose Hill campus in the Bronx, NYC). It just so happens to be the largest Jesuit community in the northeastern US. My professor was a Jesuit: Ewert Cousins. Our primary focus was on Augustine, Bonaventure and Meister Eckhart.

When I first showed up at a gathering room on campus with my fellow "Fellows", I was seated next to an older gentleman dressed in non-descript clothing and who was very quiet and gave off an unremarkable persona. It turned out that he was our professor. What happened next is quite funny and interesting.

My wife and I were invited to a new Fellows dinner at Loyola Hall where the Jesuits resided. I must say they do have a very elaborate lifestyle when it comes to their dining. Their living quarters on the other hand are quite bare. During the course of our sumptuous dinner, the abbot asked us what the topics would be for our papers. When I told him that I was planning to write about the early visionary writings of E.G. White, the table got very quiet. No one spoke and with a gleeful look on his face, he said, "Ellen Gould White!, please make sure I get a copy of your paper on my desk."

I learned over the next 6 weeks that they know more about us than most Adventists do. This talk I hear about Jesuit infiltration is a joke. They don't need to infiltrate us. We manage quite well to do our own damage, thank you. bwink

At no time was there any disrespect, derision, insults or aspersions cast upon my beliefs. I made good friends with my professor and even served as a guest lecturer in the department of Classical Studies lecturing on modern physics and the mystical tradition. He has invited me to his house and asked me to serve on his selection committee for future fellowship seminars. At one time he served at the UN setting up a spiritual summit conference

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:mlH6sZ1_S7sJ:www.cathnewsusa.com/uploads/images/2009/06/Ewert.Cousins.Obituary.doc+ewert+cousins&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

He died last year. He was a good man. I will miss him. Will there be Jesuits in heaven? I don't know but if there are, I'm sure he'll be there.

Alex



Alex

Appreciate this post a lot.
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 09:37 PM

Yes Stan I agree.

pk
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: abelisle


As to the intentions and actions of the organization, I, nor anyone, even Jesuits (unless they are at the highest levels of the order) can answer.

Alex


That is a key sentence, and key phrase. From what I've read a person who is a "jesuit" would have to spend 40 years or so proving themselves, then take some sort of rigorous oath before they are trusted into the highest levels of ther organization. It is at the highest levels where all stuff starts happening.

DB
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 10:57 PM

If I took it seriously it would be hurtful, as intended! But I don't! It merely brought a smile to my face. teehe
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 11:07 PM

I make no secret about my distaste for cut and paste or out of context. Its hard to contribute anything when that is technique is used, because the arguments go on for infinity! One persons interpretation vs the others. backtopic

(By the way, they are hiding under your bed...remember the communists favorite hiding place)
bwink
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/19/10 11:09 PM

I'm glad I could make you smile brother. It's easier with some, than it is with others.

bwink hiya
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 12:39 AM

The Jesuits were founded "to strive especially for the defense and propagation of the faith and for the progress of souls in Christian life and doctrine.".... Finally, they aimed to stop Protestantism from spreading and to preserve communion with Rome and the successor of Peter. The zeal of the Jesuits overcame the drift toward Protestantism in Poland-Lithuania and southern Germany.

Ignatius Loyola wrote the Jesuit Constitutions, adopted in 1554, which created a tightly centralized organization and stressed total abnegation and obedience to the Pope and their religious superiors (perinde ac cadaver, "[well-disciplined] like a corpse" as Ignatius put it).

By the time of Ignatius' death in 1556, the Jesuits were already operating a network of 74 colleges on three continents. A precursor to liberal education, the Jesuit plan of studies incorporated the Classical teachings of Renaissance humanism.

The Jesuit schools played an important part in winning back to Catholicism a number of European countries which had for a time been predominantly Protestant, notably Poland and Lithuania.

Jesuit priests often acted as confessors to Kings during the Early Modern Period. They were an important force in the Counter-Reformation.

The Jesuits today form the largest religious order of priests and brothers in the Catholic Church, with 19,216 serving in 112 nations on six continents, the largest number being in India followed by those in the United States.

Malachi Martin was a Jesuit priest and has lifted the cover on some of their plans.

In the final years before his death, Martin was working on a book with the working title Primacy: How the Institutional Roman Catholic Church became a Creature of the New World Order. This book which promised to be his most controversial and detailed work ever was never completed.
Posted by: Kevin H

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 02:13 AM

As I understand the Jesuits, they have become so liberal that they are to main line Catholisism what the Fordites are to us. It would be like Ford sneeking in to spread Adventist theology.

However that does not mean that there are not other Catholic orders more interested in the agenda of the vatican. There is evidence that Elder Wilkerson found one on his faculty, and because of this he became paranoid that the church was full of plants from the vatican, including Elder Daniels and Willie White and as breathern were trying to correct some of his views he would not listen to them believing they were vatican plants trying to spread their agenda.

But they don't need to sneek in among us, we are open and they can just see.

However, the best way to get us is by encouraging traditon that will not hold up to careful Bible study or spirit of prophecy study. Encourage traditions and push the traditations beyond reality so that when these fail that people will give up the Bible and Spirit of Phrophecy.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 03:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Kevin H
... There is evidence that Elder Wilkerson found one on his faculty, and because of this he became paranoid that the church was full of plants from the vatican, including Elder Daniels and Willie White and as breathern were trying to correct some of his views he would not listen to them believing they were vatican plants trying to spread their agenda.


Where did you find this evidence? Can you give a reference or doument? I'd like to read it.

I know that there is a former SDA pastor who is on video you can see online saying that a Catholic lady identified Roy Allen Anderson and LeRoy Froom as Jesuit priests. I find this impossible to believe. I knew RAA personally when he worked alongside my father in Loma Linda. Elder Anderson wrote books and taught classes for many years in which he showed Bible and historical proof that the papacy is the little-horn power. He was also the editor of the SDA publication, Ministry Magazine. I think the only reason anyone would want to spread this rumor about Elder Anderson is on account of his writing much of Question On Doctrines. That was a terrible mistake, but it is not any reason to accuse him of being a Jesuit priest.

My dad completely disagreed with the things in QOD concerning the nature of Christ and the IJ, but I never once heard him and Elder Anderson argue about it.
Posted by: Kevin H

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 04:58 AM

I've read this in some of the Historic Adventist publications, I also heard it in either a Sabbath School class or a lecture or sermon or something from a non-historic Adventist perspective as the speaker was pointing out that he would not take correction from the GC as he feared they were catholic plants too. In that lecure it was pointed out that Elder Wilkerson's field was modern language, and as those who had theological training tried to correct him on some of his teachings and views he used this event as a reason to think they were Catholic plants and not listen to them. The lecture went on to say that his strong attitudes chased his childen from the church and that as he was old he began to question his views. Also, attending the seminary when I was was, I forgot his name, but he is (or at least was, I have not seen his name lately and he may have become too extream) active in the historic adventist movement and also saying that the church is hypnotizing the members, but I knew his parents when I was in Academy, and he would sometimes speak at the school (his dad was the doctor in town)and his mother use to be the secretary for Dr. Wilkerson and was involved in this situation, and he would talk about his mother and Dr. Wilkerson makng this discovery.

As for Elder R. A. Anderson etc. it is interesting how they always notice that the Jesuits are always those who they want to tell us not to listen to. Scaring people away from their opposition is a lot easier than needing to defend their views.
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 05:10 AM

Originally Posted By: karl
The Jesuits were founded "to strive especially for the defense and propagation of the faith and for the progress of souls in Christian life and doctrine.".... Finally, they aimed to stop Protestantism from spreading and to preserve communion with Rome and the successor of Peter. The zeal of the Jesuits overcame the drift toward Protestantism in Poland-Lithuania and southern Germany.

Ignatius Loyola wrote the Jesuit Constitutions, adopted in 1554, which created a tightly centralized organization and stressed total abnegation and obedience to the Pope and their religious superiors (perinde ac cadaver, "[well-disciplined] like a corpse" as Ignatius put it).

By the time of Ignatius' death in 1556, the Jesuits were already operating a network of 74 colleges on three continents. A precursor to liberal education, the Jesuit plan of studies incorporated the Classical teachings of Renaissance humanism.

The Jesuit schools played an important part in winning back to Catholicism a number of European countries which had for a time been predominantly Protestant, notably Poland and Lithuania.

Jesuit priests often acted as confessors to Kings during the Early Modern Period. They were an important force in the Counter-Reformation.

The Jesuits today form the largest religious order of priests and brothers in the Catholic Church, with 19,216 serving in 112 nations on six continents, the largest number being in India followed by those in the United States.

Malachi Martin was a Jesuit priest and has lifted the cover on some of their plans.

In the final years before his death, Martin was working on a book with the working title Primacy: How the Institutional Roman Catholic Church became a Creature of the New World Order. This book which promised to be his most controversial and detailed work ever was never completed.


Hmm. I have wondered if Malachi Martin's demise was really the result of natural causes, or if he was somehow killed because of his controversial books and writings.

DB
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 03:26 PM

There is a conspiracy forum for all of this.......
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 03:30 PM

Perhaps we need to start a garbage forum?
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/20/10 03:30 PM

Not sure why something set in the mid 1500's has any bearing today.
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/21/10 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Redwood
Perhaps we need to start a garbage forum?


Start? You already got that dude.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 09:26 AM

So Jesuits are working on stopping Protestants from spreading.
Adventist are working on stopping Catholics from spreading.

What is with the paranoia?
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 11:04 AM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
So Jesuits are working on stopping Protestants from spreading.
Adventist are working on stopping Catholics from spreading.

What is with the paranoia?


Well, let's see here.... The Nazis worked to stop the Resistance and the Resistance worked to stop the Nazis. Evolutionists work to stop creationists and vice versa. Abortionists are opposing the ideology of Pro-lifers and vice versa.

Some believe in a great controversy between Satan and God.

Would it be paranoid for any of us to believe there is a war going on?
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 01:59 PM

The difference is, that we don't send Adventist men posing as Catholics, to infiltrate and change their doctrines from within. Our opposition to Catholics is honest, and out in the open.
Posted by: abelisle

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 02:02 PM

I'm curious, does anyone have definitive evidence of any Jesuits impersonating an Adventist?

Alex
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 02:23 PM

There's plenty of it if you want to see it. This is nothing new, but it tends to just get poo pooed around here, as if it were just unthinkable.
Posted by: Kevin H

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 02:34 PM

Some people think that any Adventist who does not push their agenda is a Jesuit spy trying to spread their agenda.
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: abelisle
I'm curious, does anyone have definitive evidence of any Jesuits impersonating an Adventist?

Alex


I certainly don't believe it is happening. Why would they bother? Catholics have nothing to fear from Adventists other than our pointing out the truth, and they are pretty out in the open about it themselves.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 02:39 PM

And how many Jesuit priests have you known, Karl?



Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: abelisle
I'm curious, does anyone have definitive evidence of any Jesuits impersonating an Adventist?

Alex


There is a conspiracy forum for this topic. If you want in on that forum, contact Stan.
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 03:46 PM

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
And how many Jesuit priests have you known, Karl?





Only one, and his passion was treating drug and alcohol addiction.

I wasn't speaking to any fact about Jesuit infiltration. I was just trying to imagine a reason why they might want to infiltrate? We pose no threat whatsoever to the Catholic Church at this point in time.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 03:53 PM


So based on your knowledge of one Jesuit you are ready to make a blanket statement of all Jesuit priests?

Originally Posted By: Karl
We pose no threat whatsoever to the Catholic Church at this point in time.


we don't even pose a threat to the devil himself, much less the Jesuits.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 03:59 PM

Clifford Goldstein offered something like $10,000 a few years ago, to anyone who could show one.
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

So based on your knowledge of one Jesuit you are ready to make a blanket statement of all Jesuit priests?

Originally Posted By: Karl
We pose no threat whatsoever to the Catholic Church at this point in time.


we don't even pose a threat to the devil himself, much less the Jesuits.


I think you've got me confused with someone else.

I'm not wanting to make blanket statements about Jesuit priests. Why would you misrepresent me by writing that?. Earlier on this thread I posted some stuff from the encyclopedia on Jesuit priests and their efforts to counteract Protestantism, but these are historical facts, rather than any blanket opinion from me.

I'm of the opinion that the Jesuits probably are interested in other things at this point in history.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: abelisle
I'm curious, does anyone have definitive evidence of any Jesuits impersonating an Adventist?

Alex


Good Question Alex. But I am confident that you will not get a response for this one. They just prefer to go on with the conspiracy theories and gossip. Being blind does not matter to them. Let them believe in the boogie man if they want.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Karl

I'm of the opinion that the Jesuits probably are interested in other things at this point in history.


I agree.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 04:10 PM

I think it is a legitimate question on the topic of this thread. I don't see it as stirring the pot. If this from has survived here without the mods moving it ... I say it must be fair game.
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 04:13 PM

well, my opinion doesn't matter anyway...
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/22/10 04:16 PM

yeah. I know what ya mean. Mine doesn't either ...
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 10:17 AM

The Jesuits were formed to specifically stop, counteract, the protestant reformation. That was their goal at the beginning, and it is their goal now. That's not paranoia, that is basic Western history. Any competent protestant historian will tell you the same.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 10:20 AM

Well ... I would invite ALL Jesuits to my church. I fear not what they might do. But I have confidence with what God could do for them if they come to church.

Bring it on ...
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 01:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Kountzer
The Jesuits were formed to specifically stop, counteract, the protestant reformation. That was their goal at the beginning, and it is their goal now. That's not paranoia, that is basic Western history. Any competent protestant historian will tell you the same.


That's right, and not only that, but they have been very successful with the SDA church.

http://wbns.us/news/Mid-November.2009.pdf
Posted by: rudywoofs

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 01:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Kountzer
The Jesuits were formed to specifically stop, counteract, the protestant reformation. That was their goal at the beginning, and it is their goal now. That's not paranoia, that is basic Western history. Any competent protestant historian will tell you the same.


Is that why the Jesuits started missions out in California and other western States? To convert all those Protestant Native Americans?
Posted by: SivartM

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 01:54 PM

That newsletter was... creepy.
Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 04:32 PM

Yes, I think Jan Marcussen has defintely gone around the bend.
Posted by: aldona

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:01 PM

I looked through that newsletter and a couple of thoughts went through my mind...

"I think someone needs to be on some kind of medication - not sure if it's me or the newsletter's author."

and

"If a random member of the public saw this as their first introduction to the SDA religion, they would come to the conclusion that we are all stark, raving, barking mad."

aldona
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Yes, I think Jan Marcussen has defintely gone around the bend.


Could be.
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook
Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Yes, I think Jan Marcussen has defintely gone around the bend.


Could be.



Yes. I think he is the author of one of those books that I burn whenever I come by them ... I think it is called The National Sunday Law or something to that effect.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Woody

Yes. I think he is the author of one of those books that I burn whenever I come by them ... I think it is called The National Sunday Law or something to that effect.


So you think that spreading the third angels message, which is the only thing in that book, and the only reason this church exists, is a bad thing?

Why am I not surprised?
Posted by: Woody

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:27 PM

bwink

Why am I not surprised by your reaction.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:34 PM

You shouldn't be.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:44 PM

People are giving the Jesuits too much power. We have equally bright folks in Adventism.

Let them come to our Churches, esp to the Churches that does something significant and are more than a "jesus loves you' and that is all that a person needs.

We have been way more successful giving material to members of the Church of Rome, and have them becoming Adventist than the other way around.

They are NOT super humans, BUT are intellectuals. They do not pray every morning to bring darkness upon all.
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 05:52 PM

Wasn't it also when they started to what to deny that they were the Anti-Christ? And they split the 70 week period in Daniel to be 69 and than the last week to some time in the future?

pk
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 06:34 PM

I've read National Sunday Law 2 or 3 times. It is basically a condensed version of the sop book The Great Controversy. It is also consistent with what I've heard taught in several revelation seminars at local churches, and with what I've seen and heard on 3ABN, LLBN and the Hope Channel. It is basically the three angel's messages, as has been stated.

Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 06:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
People are giving the Jesuits too much power. We have equally bright folks in Adventism.

Let them come to our Churches, esp to the Churches that does something significant and are more than a "jesus loves you' and that is all that a person needs.

We have been way more successful giving material to members of the Church of Rome, and have them becoming Adventist than the other way around.

They are NOT super humans, BUT are intellectuals. They do not pray every morning to bring darkness upon all.


Very true stan, but if we didn't have this attitude of always looking at others for correctness, casting out all perceived sin, looking for mistakes in church leadership, peering under everyones bed, etc, etc, what we would we ever have time for? Building a personal relationship with God? Priorities, priorities......
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
People are giving the Jesuits too much power. We have equally bright folks in Adventism.

Let them come to our Churches, esp to the Churches that does something significant and are more than a "jesus loves you' and that is all that a person needs.

We have been way more successful giving material to members of the Church of Rome, and have them becoming Adventist than the other way around.

They are NOT super humans, BUT are intellectuals. They do not pray every morning to bring darkness upon all.


My take on the whole issue is this: I do not personally know of jesuit infiltration into this church. Most if not all of my personal contact with jesuits, usually students, or parents of high school students, has been favorable. Still, there is a lot of historical evidence suggesting that this organizaiton, at its highest levels, has some sort of NWO ulterior plan. There are a lot of sane, intelligent and knowledgable non adventists that have reached that conclusion. There are a lot of present and former jesuits, (i.e. Malachi Martin, Alberto Rivera, to name two) who have said the same.

If it is true that said organization has infiltrated and committed all sorts of deeds in churches and governments around the world, then it is only natural to assume they probably have tampered with this church also. Again, I have no proof of this, nor am I actively trying to find any. I just would not be overly surprised if it came to light.

Whatever the truth is, God is in control, and that is why I don't worry about it.
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Kountzer
Still, there is a lot of historical evidence suggesting that this organizaiton, at its highest levels, has some sort of NWO ulterior plan. There are a lot of sane, intelligent and knowledgable non adventists that have reached that conclusion. There are a lot of present and former jesuits, (i.e. Malachi Martin, Alberto Rivera, to name two) who have said the same.



The RC church is openly in favor of globalism. And why wouldn't it be? It is the natural shoe-in to reap the power benefits of a NWO. It is the only church with a seat at the UN.

The pope was openly disappointed that more globalism didn't come out of Copenhagen. ("Pope Benedict XVI criticises the failure by world leaders to agree to a new climate change treaty in Copenhagen last month."
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8452447.stm)
Posted by: Kountzer

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/23/10 09:25 PM

Exactly. And if you read catholic/jesuit statements, books, etc., they will tell you of their intent to control the world, and why. That is what seals the deal for me.
Posted by: Kevin H

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/24/10 11:08 AM

I like the last couple of posts on where the world is going ecomomically. What we need to remember is the beast in Rev. 13 has 7 heads, and based on Daniel 2, 7, and 8 we find them to be Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (including Papal Supreamicy), the deadly would (this is the head with the 10 horns the crowns of the horn where the beast is and is not and is yet to come, a period of no great world empires but several independent nations) then the deadly wound healing. It heals to a 7th head, not a return to the 5th head. Revelation 18 especially, but other parts to talk about the 7th head, and it is all economic cooperation. The focus goes from the great political-religious powers of the past to the merchants of the earth.

Yes, the papacy has had a tendency to join with the wrong side in the great issues of history and will probably do it again, but if we are looking for the deadly wound to be a return to head 5 instead of moving on to head 7 we might miss the boat.
Posted by: karl

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/24/10 11:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Yes, the papacy has had a tendency to join with the wrong side in the great issues of history and will probably do it again, but if we are looking for the deadly wound to be a return to head 5 instead of moving on to head 7 we might miss the boat.


Yes, it is the "Image To The Beast" rather than the "Beast" itself. And the lamb-like beast encourages the nations of the earth to "make" it.

I think it will be an empowered UN or some very similar supranational organization.
Posted by: Kevin H

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 01/24/10 05:43 PM

Shows you are thinking Karl, good! The Lord will reveal it to us when needed. What we have to do is study what the issues were in the past so that we will recognize the analogy when it comes, but we must not be so steeped in tradition that we miss the analogy while waiting for a perfect fit. These are the two attacks of Satan, the lack of care in the Bible, or belittling the applications of the past saying they don't play a role, or the dogmatic clinging to tradition and expecting us to go back to the earlier situation. We are going to go to the 7th head, not back to the 5th head. Too many of us have turned the 5th head into the whole beast.
Posted by: JawgeFromJawja

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 09:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
So what you are saying, Richard, is the test of the Spirit, "By their fruits you shall know them" has no relevence?


Earlier in the same sermon, Jesus had said "Judge not, that you be not judged."

The entire context of "by their fruits":


Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Obviously, Christ's admonition "by their fruits ye shall know them" does not permit judgmental behavior. It is a test, but a test for false prophets. For those who read, but do not comprehend The Bible, the phrase gives permission to be judgmental of behavior in general, which is precisely what He forbade.
Posted by: Gerry Cabalo

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 02:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Woody
Yes SivartM. I would outwardly agree with all the principles of conservatism. I would judge those who disagree with me. I would tell them where they are going if they don't shape up and obey.


Before you know it, Woody might be fingering me as a Jesuit! biglaugh
Posted by: Gerry Cabalo

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Woody
Quote:
I wasn't impressed.


Me neither


Well, Iam. I am impressed with his lectures on creation and evolution.
Posted by: Gerry Cabalo

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 02:29 PM

Originally Posted By: aldona
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

This isn't a good topic for discussion, IMHO. It feeds off of people's fears of imaginary Jesuit infiltration of the SDA church. I really don't think the Jesuits are interested in infiltrating the church. They have better things to do with their time. Just ask Stan.


I'm a member of my local Amnesty International chapter. One time the guest speaker at one of our meetings was a Jesuit priest. He spoke about his (and his fellow priests') work helping current and former prisoners, refugees, and homeless street people. He seemed like a very kind, humble man.

If this is the sort of people who are alleged to be infiltrating the church, and the agenda that they are pushing - I say "bring it on", the church desperately needs them.

aldona


Well, here's their alleged oath:


The Jesuit Oath Exposed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-Regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated."
Professor Arthur Noble

[The following is the text of the Jesuit Extreme Oath of Induction as recorded in the Journals of the 62nd Congress, 3rd Session, of the United States Congressional Record (House Calendar No. 397, Report No. 1523, 15 February, 1913, pp. 3215-3216), from which it was subsequently torn out. The Oath is also quoted by Charles Didier in his book Subterranean Rome (New York, 1843), translated from the French original. Dr. Alberto Rivera, who escaped from the Jesuit Order in 1967, confirms that the induction ceremony and the text of the Jesuit Oath which he took were identical to what we have cited below. – A. N.]

When a Jesuit of the minor rank is to be elevated to command, he is conducted into the Chapel of the Convent of the Order, where there are only three others present, the principal or Superior standing in front of the altar. On either side stands a monk, one of whom holds a banner of yellow and white, which are the Papal colours, and the other a black banner with a dagger and red cross above a skull and crossbones, with the word INRI, and below them the words IUSTUM NECAR REGES IMPIUS. The meaning of which is: It is just to exterminate or annihilate impious or heretical Kings, Governments, or Rulers.

Upon the floor is a red cross at which the postulant or candidate kneels. The Superior hands him a small black crucifix, which he takes in his left hand and presses to his heart, and the Superior at the same time presents to him a dagger, which he grasps by the blade and holds the point against his heart, the Superior still holding it by the hilt, and thus addresses the postulant:

(The Superior speaks:)

My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a Reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant; and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope. You have been taught to plant insidiously the seeds of jealousy and hatred between communities, provinces, states that were at peace, and to incite them to deeds of blood, involving them in war with each other, and to create revolutions and civil wars in countries that were independent and prosperous, cultivating the arts and the sciences and enjoying the blessings of peace; to take sides with the combatants and to act secretly with your brother Jesuit, who might be engaged on the other side, but openly opposed to that with which you might be connected, only that the Church might be the gainer in the end, in the conditions fixed in the treaties for peace and that the end justifies the means. You have been taught your duty as a spy, to gather all statistics, facts and information in your power from every source; to ingratiate yourself into the confidence of the family circle of Protestants and heretics of every class and character, as well as that of the merchant, the banker, the lawyer, among the schools and universities, in parliaments and legislatures, and the judiciaries and councils of state, and to be all things to all men, for the Pope's sake, whose servants we are unto death. You have received all your instructions heretofore as a novice, a neophyte, and have served as co-adjurer, confessor and priest, but you have not yet been invested with all that is necessary to command in the Army of Loyola in the service of the Pope. You must serve the proper time as the instrument and executioner as directed by your superiors; for none can command here who has not consecrated his labours with the blood of the heretic; for "without the shedding of blood no man can be saved". Therefore, to fit yourself for your work and make your own salvation sure, you will, in addition to your former oath of obedience to your order and allegiance to the Pope, repeat after me:

(Text of the Oath:)

I_______________ , now in the presence of Almighty God, the blessed Virgin Mary, the blessed St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul, and all the saints, sacred host of Heaven, and to you, my Ghostly Father, the superior general of the Society of Jesus, founded by St. Ignatius Loyola, in the pontification of Paul the Third, and continued to the present, do by the womb of the Virgin, the matrix of God, and the rod of Jesus Christ, declare and swear that His Holiness, the Pope, is Christ's Vice-Regent and is the true and only head of the Catholic or Universal Church throughout the earth; and that by the virtue of the keys of binding and loosing given to His Holiness by my Saviour, Jesus Christ, he hath power to depose heretical Kings, Princes, States, Commonwealths, and Governments, and they may be safely destroyed. Therefore to the utmost of my power I will defend this doctrine and His Holiness's right and custom against all usurpers of the heretical or Protestant authority whatever, especially the Lutheran Church of Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway, and the now pretended authority and Churches of England and Scotland, and the branches of same now established in Ireland and on the continent of America and elsewhere and all adherents in regard that they may be usurped and heretical, opposing the sacred Mother Church of Rome. I do now denounce and disown any allegiance as due to any heretical king, prince or State, named Protestant or Liberal, or obedience to any of their laws, magistrates or officers. I do further declare the doctrine of the Churches of England and Scotland of the Calvinists, Huguenots, and others of the name of Protestants or Masons to be damnable, and they themselves to be damned who will not forsake the same. I do further declare that I will help, assist, and advise all or any of His Holiness's agents, in any place where I should be, in Switzerland, Germany, Holland, Ireland or America, or in any other kingdom or territory I shall come to, and do my utmost to extirpate the heretical Protestant or Masonic doctrines and to destroy all their pretended powers, legal or otherwise. I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding, I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church's interest; to keep secret and private all her agents' counsels from time to time, as they entrust me, and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever; but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father, or any of this sacred order. I do further promise and declare that I will have no opinion or will of my own or any mental reservation whatever, even as a corpse or cadaver (perinde ac cadaver), but will unhesitatingly obey each and every command that I may receive from my superiors in the militia of the Pope and of Jesus Christ. That I will go to any part of the world whithersoever I may be sent, to the frozen regions north, jungles of India, to the centres of civilisation of Europe, or to the wild haunts of the barbarous savages of America without murmuring or repining, and will be submissive in all things, whatsoever is communicated to me. I do further promise and declare that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly and openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Masons, as I am directed to do, to extirpate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex nor condition, and that will hang, burn, waste, boil, flay, strangle, and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women, and crush their infants' heads against the walls in order to annihilate their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly I will secretly use the poisonous cup, the strangulation cord, the steel of the poniard, or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honour, rank, dignity or authority of the persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agents of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Father of the Society of Jesus. In confirmation of which I hereby dedicate my life, soul, and all corporal powers, and with the dagger which I now receive I will subscribe my name written in my blood in testimony thereof; and should I prove false, or weaken in my determination, may my brethren and fellow soldiers of the militia of the Pope cut off my hands and feet and my throat from ear to ear, my belly be opened and sulphur burned therein with all the punishment that can be inflicted upon me on earth, and my soul shall be tortured by demons in eternal hell forever. That I will in voting always vote for a Knight of Columbus in preference to a Protestant, especially a Mason, and that I will leave my party so to do; that if two Catholics are on the ticket I will satisfy myself which is the better supporter of Mother Church and vote accordingly. That I will not deal with or employ a Protestant if in my power to deal with or employ a Catholic. That I will place Catholic girls in Protestant families that a weekly report may be made of the inner movements of the heretics. That I will provide myself with arms and ammunition that I may be in readiness when the word is passed, or I am commanded to defend the Church either as an individual or with the militia of the Pope. All of which I,_______________, do swear by the blessed Trinity and blessed sacrament which I am now to receive to perform and on part to keep this my oath. In testimony hereof, I take this most holy and blessed sacrament of the Eucharist and witness the same further with my name written with the point of this dagger dipped in my own blood and seal in the face of this holy sacrament.

(He receives the wafer from the Superior and writes his name with the point of his dagger dipped in his own blood taken from over his heart.)

(Superior speaks:)

You will now rise to your feet and I will instruct you in the Catechism necessary to make yourself known to any member of the Society of Jesus belonging to this rank. In the first place, you, as a Brother Jesuit, will with another mutually make the ordinary sign of the cross as any ordinary Roman Catholic would; then one crosses his wrists, the palms of his hands open, and the other in answer crosses his feet, one above the other; the first points with forefinger of the right hand to the centre of the palm of the left, the other with the forefinger of the left hand points to the centre of the palm of the right; the first then with his right hand makes a circle around his head, touching it; the other then with the forefinger of his left hand touches the left side of his body just below his heart; the first then with his right hand draws it across the throat of the other, and the latter then with a dagger down the stomach and abdomen of the first. The first then says Iustum; and the other answers Necar; the first Reges; the other answers Impious. The first will then present a small piece of paper folded in a peculiar manner, four times, which the other will cut longitudinally and on opening the name Jesu will be found written upon the head and arms of a cross three times. You will then give and receive with him the following questions and answers:

From whither do you come? Answer: The Holy faith.

Whom do you serve? Answer: The Holy Father at Rome, the Pope, and the Roman Catholic Church Universal throughout the world.

Who commands you? Answer: The Successor of St. Ignatius Loyola, the founder of the Society of Jesus or the Soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Who received you? Answer: A venerable man in white hair.

How? Answer: With a naked dagger, I kneeling upon the cross beneath the banners of the Pope and of our sacred order.

Did you take an oath? Answer: I did, to destroy heretics and their governments and rulers, and to spare neither age, nor sex, nor condition; to be as a corpse without any opinion or will of my own, but to implicitly obey my Superiors in all things without hesitation or murmuring.

Will you do that? Answer: I will.

How do you travel? Answer: In the bark of Peter the fisherman.

Whither do you travel? Answer: To the four quarters of the globe.

For what purpose? Answer: To obey the orders of my General and Superiors and execute the will of the Pope and faithfully fulfil the conditions of my oaths.

Go ye, then, into all the world and take possession of all lands in the name of the Pope. He who will not accept him as the Vicar of Jesus and his Vice-Regent on earth, let him be accursed and exterminated.

[Note: The following books on (or particularly relevant to) the Jesuits are held by the EIPS Library:

Anon.: The Female Jesuit. London, 1851

Anon.: The Mystery of Jesuitism. London, 1658

Anon.: The Secret Instructions of the Jesuits. London, 1824

Anon.: The Secret Instructions of the Jesuits. London, 1824

Barrett, E.B.: The Jesuit Enigma. London, 1929

Barthel, M: The Jesuits. New York, 1984

Bert, M.P.: Gury's Doctrines of the Jesuits. London, 1947

Blakeney, R.P.: Alphonsus Liguori. London, 1852

Brodrick, J., S.J.: The Origin of the Jesuits. New York, 1960

Bungener, L.L.F.: The Jesuits in France or The Priest and the Huguenot. London, 1859

Coape, H.C.: In a Jesuit Net. London, no date

Dalton, E.: The Jesuits. London, 1843

De Courson, R.: Concerning Jesuits. London, 1902

Gallahue, J.: The Jesuit. New York, 1973

Goodier, A.: The Jesuits. London, 1929

Griesinger, T.: History of the Jesuits. London, 1903

Groves, H.C.: The Doctrines and Practices of the Jesuits. London, 1889

Hanna, S.: Jesuitism: or Catholic Action. Belfast, 1938

Hastings, M.: Jesuit Child. Newton Abbot, 1972

Hillerbrand, H.: The Reformation. A Narrative History related by Contemporary Observers and Participants. Ann Arbor, 1989

Lathbury, T.: The State of Popery and Jesuitism in England. London, 1838

Lehmann, L.H.: The Secret of Catholic Power. New York, no date

Liguori, A.M.: The Council of Trent. Dublin, 1846

MacPherson, H.: The Jesuits in History. London, 1914

Martin, M.: The Jesuits. New York, 1987

Nicolini, G.B.: History of the Jesuits. London, 1854

Paisley, I.R.K.: The Jesuits. Belfast, no date

Paris, E.: The Secret History of the Jesuits. London, 1975

Ridley, F.A.: The Jesuits: A Study in Counter-Revolution. London, 1938

Roberts, Archbishop, S.J.: Black Popes. London, 1954

Robertson, A.: The Roman Catholic Church in Italy. London, 1903

Seebohm, F.: The Epoch of the Protestant Reformation. London, 1877

Seymour, M.H.: Mornings among the Jesuits at Rome. London, 1850

Steinmetz, A.: History of the Jesuits. London, 1848 (3 Vols.)

Walsh, W.: The Jesuits in Great Britain. New York, 1903

Wild, J.: Canada and the Jesuits. Toronto, 1889

Wylie, J.A.: Jesuitism: Its Rise, Progress and Insidious Workings. London, no date

Ybarra, T.R. (translator): The Kaiser's Memoirs, by Wilhelm II. New York, 1922]



http://www.ianpaisley.org
Email: eips_info@yahoo.co.uk

Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 06:36 PM

That is very interesting. Thanks for posting it.
Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 07:57 PM

You may also want to read these references:
Jesuit Oath Debunked
Jesuit Conspiracy Theories
Society of Jesus




Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/04/11 08:13 PM

But who's debunking who? I guess it depends on your perspective, and what you are inclined to believe.
Posted by: Gerry Cabalo

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/05/11 08:25 PM

Yeah, I saw that article about the oath being debunked. But ff it is not true, why were the Jesuits banned from almost every country at one time?
Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/05/11 10:25 PM

The Pope declared the Jesuit order to be forever abolished due to the many complaints about the Jesuits from other Catholic orders. A number of prior Popes had tried to quell them - but eventually it came to the point of a Papal decree abolishing the order "foever". According to the Pope - even the infamous inquisitors complained about the unchristian practices of the Jesuits.

But they managed to "come back" once the next pope was elected.

in Christ,

Bob

Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/11/11 04:00 PM

I learned about the Jesuits and their plans for the world (especially the last days) from reading the book, "The Enemy Unmasked", by Bill Hughes,an SDA pastor. You can also read his book "The Secret Terrorist", online by looking up that as a subject.
Moderator John, I hope it's okay to post this recommendation, let me know if not.
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/11/11 11:08 PM

bwink

Never attempt to dissuade a person from preconceived "truths" !!!!
Posted by: Gerry Cabalo

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/11/11 11:29 PM

Originally Posted By: CoAspen
bwink

Never attempt to dissuade a person from preconceived "truths" !!!!


Let's examine the history of the Jesuits and see who has preconceived notions, or whether these so-called preconceived notions are in fact historically accurate.
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/18/11 10:19 PM

Back to Elders Anderson and Froom, I think the issue with them being jesuits in disguise was because of their TV interview back in the 60's that refuted the Trinity, the Sanctuary belief, and the validity of Sister White. This radically put the SDA church in a false light to the public.
Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
Originally Posted By: CoAspen
bwink

Never attempt to dissuade a person from preconceived "truths" !!!!


Let's examine the history of the Jesuits and see who has preconceived notions, or whether these so-called preconceived notions are in fact historically accurate.


Good idea.

What did the Pope say about Jesuits when he forever abolished the order?

in Christ,

Bob
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 01:34 AM

I give up Bob, what did he say?
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 09:37 AM

Of course, the pope would denounce the jesuit order, for it to come back up in a new form; just as cunning Nazis at first denounced any support of Hitler, so as to confuscate things for any superficial investigation.
Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 10:16 AM

Originally Posted By: BobRyan
...What did the Pope say about Jesuits when he forever abolished the order?


So Bob, you accept the Pope as a source of truth?
Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 10:20 AM

I accept the Pope as someone more biased in favor of Jesuits than you or I or any non-Catholic you can name.

Was that not apparent?

When someone who has every incentive to promote Jesuits - points to their errors and abolishes them - then my case for objectivity has just gone up by several orders of magnitude.

Is there a match for this on your part?

in Christ,

Bob
Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 10:38 AM

So you consider the Pope that abolished them to have been objective? That his motives were pure?


Quote:
Ignatius and the early Jesuits did recognize, though, that the hierarchical Church was in dire need of reform. Some of their greatest struggles were against corruption, venality, and spiritual lassitude within the Roman Catholic Church. Ignatius's insistence on an extremely high level of academic preparation for ministry, for instance, was a deliberate response to the relatively poor education of much of the clergy of his time. The Jesuit vow against "ambitioning prelacies" was a deliberate effort to prevent greed for money or power invading Jesuit circles.
As a result, in spite of their loyalty, Ignatius and his successors often tangled with the pope and the Roman Curia. - Wikipedia


Quote:
Though he had to face strong pressure on the part of the ambassadors of the Bourbon courts Clement XIII always refused to yield to their demands to have the Society of Jesus suppressed. His successor Clement XIV tried to placate the enemies of the Jesuits by treating them harshly: he refused to meet the Superior General, Lorenzo Ricci, ordered them not to receive novices, etc.
The pressure kept building up to the point that Catholic countries were threatening to break away from the Church. Clement XIV ultimately yielded "in the name of peace of the Church and to avoid a secession in Europe" and suppressed the Society of Jesus by the brief Dominus ac Redemptor of the 21 July 1773. However in non-Catholic nations, particularly in Prussia and Russia, where papal authority was not recognized, the order was ignored. It was a result of a series of political moves rather than a theological controversy. - Wikipedia


Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 10:45 AM

Originally Posted By: RLH
I give up Bob, what did he say?


That was the right question - instead of going to a "defend Jesuits at all costs to reason, logic and objectivity" just because it is the big-left-tent thing to do.

Papal Bull of Pope Clement XIV PERMANENTLY suppressing the Jesuit Order:

Quote:

"It is beyond a doubt, that among the things which contribute to the good and happiness of the Christian republic, the religious orders hold, as it were, the first place. It was for this reason that the Apostolic See, which owes its lustre and support to these orders, has not only approved, but endowed them with many exemptions, privileges, and faculties, in order that they might be so much the more excited to the cultivation of piety and religion; to the direction of the manners of the people, both by their instructions and their examples; to the preservation and confirmation of the unity of the faith among the believers. But if, at any time, any of these religious orders did not cause these abundant fruits to prosper among the Christian people, did not produce those advantages which were hoped for at their institution; if at any time they seemed disposed rather to trouble than maintain the public tranquility; the same Apostolic See, which had availed itself of its own authority to establish these orders, did not hesitate to reform them by new laws, to recall them to their primitive institution, or even totally to abolish them where it has seemed necessary.

...

"We, therefore, having these and other such examples before our eyes, examples of great weight and high authority—animated, besides, with a lively desire of walking with a safe conscience and a firm step in the deliberations of which we shall speak hereafter—have omitted no care, no pains, in order to arrive at a thorough knowledge of the origin, the progress, and the actual state of that regular order commonly called 'The Company of Jesus.' In the course these investigations, we have seen that the holy founder of the order did institute it for the salvation of souls, the conversion of heretics and infidels, and, in short, for the greater advancement of piety and religion. And, in order to attain more surely and happily so laudable a design, he consecrated himself rigorously to God, by an absolute vow of evangelical poverty, with which to bind the Society in general, and each individual in particular, except only the colleges in which polite literature and other branches of knowledge were to be taught, and which were allowed to possess property, but so that no part of their revenues could ever be applied to the use of the said Society in general. It was under these and other holy restrictions that the Company of Jesus was approved by the Pope Paul III., our predecessor of blessed memory, by his letter sub plumbo, dated 27th September 1540.

...

"Notwithstanding so many and so great favours, it appears from the apostolical Constitutions, that, almost at the very moment of its institution, their arose in the bosom of this Society divers seeds of discord and dissension, not only among the companions themselves, but with other regular orders, the secular clergy, the academies; the universities, the public schools, and lastly, even with the princes of the states in which the Society was received.
"These dissensions and disputes arose sometimes concerning the nature of their vows, the time of admission to them, the power of expulsion, the right of admission to holy orders without a sufficient title, and without having taken the solemn vows, contrary to the tenor of the decrees of the Council of Trent, and of Pius V., our predecessor; sometimes concerning the absolute authority assumed by the General of the said order, and on matters relating to the good government and discipline of the order; sometimes concerning different points of doctrine concerning their schools, or such of their exemptions and privileges as the ordinaries and other civil or ecclesiastical officers declared to be contrary to their rights and jurisdiction. In short, accusations of the greatest nature, and very detrimental to the peace and tranquility of the Christian republic, have been continually received against the said order. Hence the origin of that infinity of appeals and protests against this Society, which so many sovereigns have laid at the foot of the throne of our predecessors Paul IV., Pius V., and Sixtus V.

"Among the princes who have thus appealed, is Philip II., King of Spain, of glorious memory, who laid before Sixtus V. not only the reasons of complaint which he had, but also those alleged by the inquisitors of his kingdom, against the excessive privileges of the Society, and the form of their government. He desired likewise that the Pope should be acquainted with the heads of accusation laid against the Society, and confirmed by some of its own members remarkable for their learning and piety, and demanded that the Society should undergo an apostolic visitation. Sixtus V., convinced that these demands and solicitations of Philip were just and well founded, did, without hesitation, comply therewith; and, in consequence, named a bishop of distinguished prudence, virtue, and learning, to be apostolical visitor, and at the same time deputed a congregation of cardinals to examine this matter.
"But this pontiff having been carried off by a premature death, this wise undertaking remained without effect. Gregory XIV. being raised to the supreme apostolic chair, approved, in its utmost extent, the institution of the Society, by his letter, sub plumbo, dated the 28th of July 1591. He confirmed all the privileges which had been granted by any of his predecessors to the Society, and particularly the power of expelling and dismissing any of its members, without any previous form of process, information, act, or delay; upon the sole view of the truth of the fact, and the nature of the crime, from a sufficient motive, and a due regard of persons and circumstances. He ordained, and that under pain of excommunication, that all proceedings against the Society should be quashed, and that no person whatever should presume, directly or indirectly, to attack the institution, constitutions, or decrees of the said Society, or attempt in any manner whatever to make any changes therein. To each and every of the members only of the said Society, he permitted to expose and propose, either by themselves or by the legates and nuncios of the Holy See, to himself only, or the Popes his successors, whatever they should think proper to be added, modified, or changed in their institution.

"Who would have thought that even these dispositions should prove ineffectual towards appeasing the cries and appeals against the Society? On the contrary, very violent disputes arose on all sides concerning the doctrine of the Society, which many represented as contrary to the orthodox faith and to sound morals. The dissensions among themselves, and with others, grew every day more animated; the accusations against the Society were multiplied without number, and especially with that insatiable avidity of temporal possessions with which it was reproached. Hence the rise not only of those well-known troubles which brought so much care and solicitude upon the Holy See, but also of the resolutions which certain sovereigns took against the said order.

"It resulted that, instead of obtaining from Paul V., of blessed memory, a fresh confirmation of its institute and privileges, the Society was reduced to ask of him that he would condescend to ratify and confirm, by his authority, certain decrees formed in the Fifth General Congregation of the Company, and transcribed word for word in the Brief of the said Pope, bearing date September 4, 1606. In these decrees, it is plainly acknowledged that the dissensions and internal revolts of the said companions, together with the demands and appeals of strangers, had obliged the said companions assembled in congregation to enact the following statute, namely:

" 'The Divine Providence having raised up our Society for the propagation of the Faith, and the gaining of souls, the said Society can, by the rules of its own institute, which are its spiritual arms, arrive happily, under the standard of the Cross, at the end which it has proposed for the good of the Church and the edification of our neighbours. But the said Society would prevent the effect of these precious goods, and expose them to the most imminent dangers, if it concerned itself with temporal matters, and which relate to political affairs and the administration of government; in consequence whereof, it has been wisely ordained by our superiors and ancients, that, confining ourselves to combat for the glory of God, we should not concern ourselves with matters foreign to our profession but whereas, in these times of difficulty and danger, it has happened, through the fault perhaps of certain individuals, through ambition and intemperate zeal, that our institute has been ill spoken of in divers places, and before divers sovereigns, whose affection and good-will the Father Ignatius, of holy memory, thought we should preserve for the good of the service of God; and whereas a good reputation is indispensably necessary to make the vineyard of Christ bring forth fruits; in consequence hereof, our congregation has resolved that we shall abstain from all appearance of evil, and remedy, as far as in our power, the evils arisen from false suspicions. To this end, and by the authority of the present decree of the said congregation, it is severely and strictly forbidden to all the members of the Society to interfere in any manner whatever in public affairs, even though they be thereto invited, or to deviate from the institute, through entreaty, persuasion, or any other motive whatever. The congregation recommends to the fathers-coadjutors; that they do propose and determine, with all diligence and speed, such further means. as they may think necessary for remedying this abuse.'

"We have seen, in the grief of our heart, that neither these remedies, nor an infinity of others, since employed, have produced their due effect, or silenced the accusations and complaints against the said Society. Our other predecessors, Urban VII., Clement IX., X., XI., and XII., and Alexander VII. and VIII., Innocent X., XII., and XIII., and Benedict XIV., employed, without effect, all their efforts to the same purpose. In vain did they endeavour, by salutary constitutions, to restore peace to the Church; as well with respect to secular affairs, with which the Company ought not to have interfered, as with regard to the missions; which gave rise to great disputes and oppositions on the part of the Company with the ordinaries, with other religious orders, about the holy places, and communities of all sorts in Europe, Africa, and America, to the great loss of souls, and great scandal of the people; as likewise concerning the meaning and practice of certain idolatrous ceremonies, adopted in certain places, in contempt of those justly approved by the Catholic Church; and further, concerning the use and explanation of certain maxims, which the Holy See has with reason proscribed as scandalous, and manifestly contrary to good morals; and, lastly, concerning other matters of great importance and prime necessity, towards preserving the integrity and purity of the doctrines of the gospel; from which maxims have resulted very great inconveniences and great detriment both in our days and in past ages; such as the revolts and intestine troubles in some of the Catholic states, persecutions against the Church, in some countries of Asia and Europe, not to mention the vexation and grating solicitude which these melancholy affairs brought on our predecessors, principally upon Innocent XI., of blessed memory, who found himself reduced to the necessity of forbidding the Company to receive any more novices; and afterwards upon Innocent XIII., who was obliged to threaten the Company with the same punishment; and, lastly, upon Benedict XIV., who took the resolution of ordaining a general visitation of all the houses and colleges of the Company in the kingdom of our dearly beloved son in Jesus Christ, the most faithful King of Portugal.
" The late apostolic letter of Clement XIII., of blessed memory, our immediate predecessor, by which the institute of the Company of Jesus was again approved and recommended, was far from bringing any comfort to the Holy See, or any advantage to the Christian republic. Indeed this letter was rather extorted than granted, to use the expression of Gregory X. in the above-named General Council of Lyons.

"After so many storms, troubles, and divisions, every good man looked forward with impatience to the happy day which was to restore peace and tranquility. But under the reign of this same Clement XIII. the times became more difficult and tempestuous; complaints and quarrels were multiplied on every side; in some places dangerous sedition arose, tumults, discords, dissension, scandals, which, weakening or entirely breaking the bonds of Christian charity, excited the faithful to all the rage of party hatreds and enmities. Desolation and danger grew to such a height, that the very sovereigns, whose piety and liberality towards the Company were so well known as to be looked upon as hereditary in their families—we mean our dearly beloved sons in Christ, the Kings of France, Spain, Portugal, and Sicily found themselves reduced to the necessity of expelling and driving from their states, kingdoms, and provinces, these very Companions of Jesus persuaded that there remained no other remedy to so great evils; and that this step was necessary in order to prevent the Christians from rising one against another, and from massacring each other in the very bosom of our common mother the Holy Church. The said our dear sons in Jesus Christ having since considered that even this remedy would not be sufficient towards reconciling the whole Christian world, unless the said Society was absolutely abolished and suppressed, made known their demands and wills in this matter to our said predecessor Clement VIII. They united their common prayers and authority to obtain that this last method might be put in practice, as the only one capable of assuring the constant repose of their subjects, and the good of the Catholic Church in general. But the unexpected death of the aforesaid pontiff rendered this project abortive.
"As soon as by the divine mercy and providence we were raised to the chair of St Peter, the same prayers, demands, and wishes were laid before us, and strengthened by the pressing solicitations of many bishops, and other persons of distinguished rank, learning, and piety, but, that we might choose the wisest course in an affair of so much importance, we determined not to be precipitate, but to take due time; not only to examine attentively, weigh carefully, and wisely debate, but also, by unceasing prayers, to ask of the Father of Lights his particular assistance under these circumstances; exhorting at the same time the faithful to co-operate with us by their prayers and good works in obtaining this needful succour.
"And first of all we proposed to examine upon what grounds rested the common opinion, that the institute of the Clerks of the Company of Jesus had been approved and confirmed in an especial manner by the Council of Trent. And we found that in the said Council nothing more was done with regard to the said Society, only to except it from the general decree, which ordained that in the other regular orders, those who had finished their novitiate, and were judged worthy of being admitted to the profession, should be admitted thereto; and that such as were not found worthy should be sent back from the monastery. The same Council declared, that it meant not to make any change or innovation in the government of the clerks of the Company of Jesus, that they might not be hindered from being useful to God and his Church, according to the intent of the pious institute approved by the Holy See.
"Actuated by so many and important considerations, and, as we hope, aided by the presence and inspiration of the Holy Spirit; compelled, besides, by the necessity of our ministry, which strictly obliges us to conciliate, maintain, and confirm the peace and tranquility of the Christian republic, and remove every obstacle which may tend to trouble it; having further considered that the said Company of Jesus can no longer produce those abundant fruits, and those great advantages, with a view to which it was instituted, approved by so many of our predecessors, and endowed with so many and extensive privileges; that, on the contrary, it was very difficult, not to say impossible, that the Church could recover a firm and durable peace so long as the said Society subsisted; in consequence hereof, and determined by the particular reasons we have here alleged, and forced by other motives which prudence and the good government of the Church have dictated; the knowledge of which we reserve to ourselves; conforming ourselves to the examples of our predecessors, and particularly to that of Gregory X. in the general Council of Lyons; the rather as, in the present case, we are determining upon the fate of a society classed among the mendicant orders, both by its institute and by its privileges; after a mature deliberation, we do, out of our certain knowledge, and the fulness of our apostolical power, SUPPRESS AND ABOLISH THE SAID COMPANY: we deprive it of all activity whatever, of its houses, schools, colleges, hospitals, lands, and, in short, every other place whatsoever, in whatever kingdom or province they may be situated; we abrogate and annul its statutes, rules, customs, decrees, and constitutions, even though confirmed by oath, and approved by the Holy See or otherwise; in like manner we annul all and every its privileges, indults, general or particular, the tenor whereof is, and is taken to be, as fully and as amply expressed in the present Brief as if the same were inserted word for word, in whatever clauses, form, or decree, or under whatever sanction their privileges may have been conceived. ...

. It shall be lawful to unite in one or more houses the number of individuals that remain, nor shall others be substituted in the room of those who may die so that the houses which become vacant may be converted to such pious uses as the circumstances of time and place shall require, in conformity to the holy canons, and the intention of the founders, so as may best promote the divine worship, the salvation of souls, and the public good. And to this end a member of the regular clergy, recommendable for his prudence and sound morals, shall be chosen to preside over and govern the said houses; so that the name of the Company shall be, and is, for ever extinguished and suppressed.

"In like manner we declare, that in this general suppression of the Company shall be comprehended the individuals thereof in all the provinces from whence they have already been expelled; and to this effect our will is, that the said individuals, even though they have been promoted to holy orders, be ipso facto reduced to the state of secular priests and clerks, and remain in absolute subjection to the ordinary of the diocese, supposing always that they are not entered into any other regular order.



Posted by: Tom Wetmore

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 11:04 AM

So, how did that "PERMANENTLY suppressing" thing work itself out?

In addition to what I previously posted:

Quote:
As the Napoleonic Wars were approaching their end in 1814, the old political order of Europe was to a considerable extent restored at the Congress of Vienna after years of fighting and revolution, during which the Church had been persecuted as an agent of the old order and abused under the rule of Napoleon. With the political climate of Europe changed, more stable and the powerful monarchs who had called for the suppression of the Society no longer in power, Pope Pius VII issued an order restoring the Society of Jesus in the Catholic countries of Europe. For its part, the Society of Jesus made the decision at the first General Congregation held after the restoration to keep the organization of the Society the way that it had been before the suppression was ordered in 1773.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 10:24 PM

A few posts ago, someone asked who wrote "The Secret Terrorists". It was Bill Hughes, a historian and SDA pastor who graduated from Andrews University. The book has been distributed, mainly without charge, to about 4,000,000 individuals worldwide. Is also available at Amazon.
Bill Hughes' research fills in the gap where Great Controversy left off, up to the present time of the plans of the Vatican to set up its world government.
These are not so-called "conspiracy theories" but historical facts. As Adventists, we accept that the pope is to become the dominant world authority. Sister White says that prophecy should be a main study, and it's hard to see how people can say the church has more important matters to face.
The "Great Controversy" book is the history of that "conspiracy" by Satan to ruin God's plans for the Second Coming. I deeply hope that people who don't believe conspiracy is going on will read Great Controversy again,because that is what the book is about. Since the year that E.G.White wrote the last page, Satan has continued his plans, his conspiring, to steer political events for his own ends. He has also seen to it that the phrase "conspiracy theory" has a sort of magical effect on people to make them feel "wised up" and thereby never really get wised up on what's going on in modern history and politics.
If you believe Jesus is coming again soon, perhaps you can also see that Satan would not just sit around twittering his thumbs, waiting for the heavy foot to fall.
Anyone interested in reading "The Secret Terrorists" can have a book free of charge by emailing Bill Hughes directly at n3232@cs.com, or go read it on line at www.pacinst.com.
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/19/11 11:24 PM

Whether there be Jesuits, papists or what ever among us, it can not be worse or any more destructive than our own deceitful hearts.
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/20/11 02:48 AM

I think I understand what you're getting at CoAspen. It's that the most important concern is to be right with God in the final world events. Sister White says that, too, when she describes how our relationship with God is what counts first. It's better to know God and not know prophecy, than to know every detail of prophecy but fail to get right with God.I agree with that.
Also, people are different in the way they need to face trouble. Some people are too stressed by a lot of news on current world events and prefer to leave the worrying up to God. That's okay. But some of us feel better to see and know everything. It's different styles we have in facing life.
But the main thing is to give our hearts to the Lord and have His Holy Spirit within, getting us ready for whatever is coming.That is what will see us through.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:05 PM

Originally Posted By: karl
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
And how many Jesuit priests have you known, Karl?





Only one, and his passion was treating drug and alcohol addiction.

I wasn't speaking to any fact about Jesuit infiltration. I was just trying to imagine a reason why they might want to infiltrate? We pose no threat whatsoever to the Catholic Church at this point in time.


The SDA organization (new movement) poses no threat to them anymore. That's a fact.

sky
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:12 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
There's plenty of it if you want to see it. This is nothing new, but it tends to just get poo pooed around here, as if it were just unthinkable.


Questioning Jesuit infiltration within the SDA organization is a sign of spiritual blindness.

Some are even admitting having received a Jesuit education.

sky
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Restin
I think I understand what you're getting at CoAspen. It's that the most important concern is to be right with God in the final world events. Sister White says that, too, when she describes how our relationship with God is what counts first. It's better to know God and not know prophecy, than to know every detail of prophecy but fail to get right with God.I agree with that.
Also, people are different in the way they need to face trouble. Some people are too stressed by a lot of news on current world events and prefer to leave the worrying up to God. That's okay. But some of us feel better to see and know everything. It's different styles we have in facing life.
But the main thing is to give our hearts to the Lord and have His Holy Spirit within, getting us ready for whatever is coming.That is what will see us through.


I agree that what we need to worry most about is whether we are one with Christ or not.

"The storm is coming, relentless in its fury. Are you prepared to meet it? Are you one with Christ as He is one with the Father?" 4 RH 242. "The only condition upon which the freedom of man is possible is that of becoming one with Christ." D.A.466.

sky
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:19 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
No, so far the only case that has been made {is] that they are not NOW what history says they WERE.


Because they are such nice people.

I can see where that takes it out of the realm of possibility. What was I thinking?



Yeahh what were you thinking Richard? :)
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Woody
Originally Posted By: abelisle
I'm curious, does anyone have definitive evidence of any Jesuits impersonating an Adventist?

Alex


Good Question Alex. But I am confident that you will not get a response for this one. They just prefer to go on with the conspiracy theories and gossip. Being blind does not matter to them. Let them believe in the boogie man if they want.


Judging from your posts, you could be one of them! :)

sky
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Kevin H
I like the last couple of posts on where the world is going ecomomically. What we need to remember is the beast in Rev. 13 has 7 heads, and based on Daniel 2, 7, and 8 we find them to be Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (including Papal Supreamicy), the deadly would (this is the head with the 10 horns the crowns of the horn where the beast is and is not and is yet to come, a period of no great world empires but several independent nations) then the deadly wound healing. It heals to a 7th head, not a return to the 5th head. Revelation 18 especially, but other parts to talk about the 7th head, and it is all economic cooperation. The focus goes from the great political-religious powers of the past to the merchants of the earth.

Yes, the papacy has had a tendency to join with the wrong side in the great issues of history and will probably do it again, but if we are looking for the deadly wound to be a return to head 5 instead of moving on to head 7 we might miss the boat.



The fifth head is Papal Rome which fell in 1798; the sixth head is Atheistic France after 1798; the seventh head (yet to come) is Apostate Protestantism in the US (union of church and state enforcing Sunday; image of the papacy) and the eighth is Papal Rome which is of the seven, the beast that was before 1798, is not after 1798, and yet is again.

sky
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:49 PM

I invite Jesuits to come to the Adventist Church.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Restin
I learned about the Jesuits and their plans for the world (especially the last days) from reading the book, "The Enemy Unmasked", by Bill Hughes,an SDA pastor. You can also read his book "The Secret Terrorist", online by looking up that as a subject.
Moderator John, I hope it's okay to post this recommendation, let me know if not.


I have a copy of these books. I have read them more than once and they are excellent books, very well documented.

sky
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
I invite Jesuits to come to the Adventist Church.


You're late Stan. They did not wait for us to invite them. They have been coming in droves for decades.

sky
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 12:52 PM

Tell me of one.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/21/11 02:12 PM

We're not supposed to know who they are Stan.

sky :)
Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/24/11 08:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
So, how did that "PERMANENTLY suppressing" thing work itself out?



Sadly - they managed to come back.

Which is when Ellen White penned this comment about the organization.

Quote:

Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time, the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from every earthly tie and human interest, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to upholdthe banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy. {GC 1888, p 234.2} (also in GC 1911 234.2 and so on)

When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this [color:#CC0000]blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means[/color]. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites. All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind, and dazzle and captivate the imagination; and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC 1888, p 234.3}

To give them greater power, a bull was issued re-establishing the Inquisition. Notwithstanding the general abhorrence with which it was regarded, even in Catholic countries, this terrible tribunal was again set up by popish rulers, and atrocities too terrible to bear the light of day were repeated in its secret dungeons. In many countries, thousands upon thousands of the very flower of the nation, the purest and noblest, the most intellectual and highly educated, pious and devoted pastors, industrious and patriotic citizens, brilliant scholars, talented artists, skillful artisans, were slain, or forced to flee to other lands. {GC 1888, p 235.1}

Such were the means which Rome had invoked to quench the light of the Reformation, to withdraw from men the Bible, and to restore the ignorance and superstition of the Dark Ages. But under God’s blessing and the labors of those noble men whom he had raised up to succeed Luther, Protestantism was not overthrown. Not to the favor or arms of princes was it to owe its strength. The smallest countries, the humblest and least powerful nations, became its strongholds. It was little Geneva in the midst of mighty foes plotting her destruction; it was Holland on her sand-banks by the Northern Sea, wrestling against the tyranny of Spain, then the greatest and most opulent of kingdoms; it was bleak, sterile Sweden, that gained victories for the Reformation. {GC 1888, p 235.2}

Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/24/11 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
Tell me of one.




Samuele Bacciocchi




Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/24/11 10:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
Tell me of one.


One man says to the other "I think there are Russian and Chinese spies currently active in the Pentagon".

The other says back "name one".

in Christ,

Bob
Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/24/11 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
I invite Jesuits to come to the Adventist Church.


I too would welcome someone who claimed to be a Jesuit - to attend my church.

Those who come in by the front door are far less of a problem.

in Christ,

Bob
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 10:26 AM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
Tell me of one.




Samuele Bacciocchi






Richard, did u notice, he seems to be doing some sign with his left hand.

sky
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
Tell me of one.




Samuele Bacciocchi






Not a chance, and neither were his parents
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 03:42 PM

Of course I have no way of knowing for sure, but I do know that some of the stuff he wrote was wrong. This is just something I found on the internet.

______________________________________

Below picture is of Samuele Bacchiocchi on Jesuit Graduation day at "Pontifica Universitas Gregoriana

There are a few Pagan symbols in this picture. A few that jump right out are...

1. Notice the Pagan clothing of this "SDA" minister

2. Notice the Three Finger (Trinity) Salute of Pagan Rome ( Click here for more info on this Pagan gesture

VIDEO~ In this video you will see Rome as well as Nazi's using this 3 finger salute )

VIDEO- Ex-Jesuit Rivera admits on film t...the SDA church

3. Notice the solar discs of Baal on his chest

Read email response from Samuele Bacciocchi when I asked him about this picture.



Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 04:33 PM

is that not the graduate gown for that university?
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 04:35 PM

I was wondering the same thing Stan.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 04:37 PM

there are people who really think that the book "from Sabbath to Sunday", was something to promote Jesuits and expose Sabbath Keeping error?????

R E A L L Y????
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 04:42 PM

Interesting Stan, I never knew that. Seems really far fetched that people would get that from that book.
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/25/11 11:05 PM

P T Barnum is still laughing....a sucker is born every minute......

LOL
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/26/11 10:25 AM

SDA's no threat to Catholic church anymore? Just wait until the world wants a Sunday law and it gets to be a national legal issue. prayer
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/26/11 11:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Restin
SDA's no threat to Catholic church anymore? Just wait until the world wants a Sunday law and it gets to be a national legal issue. prayer

Most will comply Restin. Compromise with the world has become the norm for the ministry and laity alike. Ecumenism has changed the SDA faith. At one time we were Protestants, but no longer. Sabbath is now time for business meetings.

"The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it."

1 Selected Messages 204-5 (1904)

Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/26/11 10:44 PM

I see what you mean, Gordon. Maybe that's why Sister White refers to the Adventists who endure through the tribulation, as "the little company."
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/27/11 12:08 AM


The closest example could be WWII Germany. The Third Reich (German Nazi government under Hitler) had signed a concordat with the Vatican. The Nazis followed the Jesuit teachings to implement The Final Solution in removing undesirables from the land - Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. German SDAs were at first tolerated until the Sabbath became an issue. But most of the church and leadership capitulated to Nazi demands and gave up Sabbath observance. Some faithful SDAs who continued to honour the Sabbath were turned in by the Church authorities. Just as EGW says will happen in the final days.

Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/27/11 12:18 AM


Church leaders say "We're Sorry":

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92

Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 01:05 PM

Right on Gordon1.

Stan & pk, as our professed SDA leadership have given up their aversion to Roman Catholicism, the way has been opened for them to begin to cast away God's true Sabbath for sunday as the Lord's day. It is this that prepared the way for a new book of a new order: From Sabbath to Sunday. This book written by Samuele Bacchiocchi, once a professor at Andrews University, is the only protestant to have graduated from the highest Catholic training school--the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome. He graduated with the highest honors in his class, and it is there that he wrote that book.

This book is published by the Pontificial Gregorian University Press in 1977. The pope even gave his approval for its publishing. (see p.4.5 of his book) If From Sabbath To Sunday contains only truth and no error, then why is the pope approving its publication? The pope even gave Bacchiocchi a medal! When have you ever heard of the pope blessing a heretic?

These questions alone should warn our people to beware, but this is not all. Our own professed SDA church exalts this book as being a great work. Yet in this book the "Lord's day" is referred to as being sunday and not saturday. This great error that the Lord's day is sunday occurs over 51 times in just the first 160 pages.

Bacchiocchi, in reference to Revelation 1:10 "I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...", argues that the "Lord's day", referred to in this text, is one of three things. Either it refers to it being a weekly sunday, or an easter sunday, or it refers to it being at the time of Chrst's second coming--the parousia. (See p.122-23 of his book)

Mrs. White says about Revelation 1:10:

"'I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...' The Lord's day is the seventh-day, the Sabbath of creation. On the day that God sanctified and blessed, Christ signified 'by His angel unto His servant John' things that must come to pass before the close of the world's history..." Testimonies, Vol.6,p.128.5

"The Lord's day mentioned by John was the Sabbath, the day on which Jehovah rested after the great work or creation, and which He blessed and sanctified because He had rested upon it." The Sanctified Life, p.74.4.

In the 1977 edition of From Sabbath to Sunday, Bacchiocchi states that his viewpoints "differ radically" from the traditional position of the SDA church. But in the 1979 edition, he states that his viewpoints "differ somewhat" from the traditional position of the SDA church. His arguments did not change one bit. So it must be the traditional position of the SDA church that has changed. What is the professed SDA church's position on Revelation 1:10?

In the book called, THE SABBATH IN SCRIPTURE AND HISTORY, published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association in 1982, they state: quote,

"... the phrase 'the Lord's day' in Revelation 1:10... More attention should be given to the possibility that the phrase refers to an annual resurrection celebration." p.127.8.

Truely, our professed SDA church has changed their position on the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation 1:10. To them it no longer means, unquestionably, the Seventh-day Sabbath, but now it could mean easter! Truely, they are working to be just like the world and to give up God's true Sabbath for sunday.

Bacchiocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:16,17, says that Paul was warning against those who promote the moral law Sabbath as being an indispensable aid to Christian perfection. He also states that Paul was saying that the Sabbath was a shadow. (see p.356.4 and 369.3)

Mrs. White says, "The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government." 1 S.M.239-40.

Then Baccihocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:14-16, says:

"In this case Paul is warning against the observance of yearly, monthly, weekly, and holy days in general including the moral Sabbath." p.360.7.

On p.163.2 Bacchiocchi calls the moral Sabbath a Jewish institution and on p.368.2 he calls it ceremonial. What error and deception!

Why did the professed SDA leaders allow him to promote this book in SDA churches? Why did they allow him to remain a professor at our Andrews University, and to teach our future SDA ministers? Why did they allow him to deceive our people?

But this is not all. On p.4, of From Sabbath to Sunday, the word "Imprimatur" is used. This word is used to designate Roman Catholic teachings or doctrine! And our professed SDA leadership accepts and exalts this book as a great work!

sky


Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 01:18 PM

>>> Stan & pk, as our professed SDA leadership have given up their aversion to Roman Catholicism

And they are even reading the SOP on how to deal with Catholics... and your statement is way overstated..
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 03:47 PM

What happened to the conspiracy forum?

peace
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Church leaders say "We're Sorry":

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92



Thank you for posting this. It is good to see. Our church has done the right thing in making this apology. Many in our church in Europe were certainly in the wrong, yet we also need to remember the many SDAs who suffered hardship and even death rather than go against what they knew to be right. In this instance, the SDA Reform Movement proved to be right.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: skyblue888


.... our professed SDA leadership have given up their aversion to Roman Catholicism...


Speaking of which, it is worth noting that the Andrews Study Bible does not identify the Roman Catholic Church as the little-horn of Daniel 7 and 8 or 11, nor does it identify the Catholic Church or the papacy as the fulfillment of prophecy in Rev. 13, 14 to 19. The closest it comes to identifying the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies is found in the comments at Rev. 13: 1-7, where it merely says, "Protestant scholars through the centuries have identified this beast [the earth beast] with the papacy of the Middle Ages." Notice it does not even say whether the commentators of the Andrews Study Bible agree with the Protestant scholars on the identity of the papacy.

QUESTION: Given the beliefs of the SDA church as reflected in the writings of Ellen White as well as in the SDA Bible Commentary, why does the Andrews Study Bible neglect to speak clearly about the identity of the Catholic Church and the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation?

Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: John317

QUESTION: Given the beliefs of the SDA church as reflected in the writings of Ellen White as well as in the SDA Bible Commentary, why does the Andrews Study Bible neglect to speak clearly about the identity of the Catholic Church and the papacy as the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation?



Good question. Also we never hear anything about that, or any part of the three angels' messages from the pulpit anymore. At least not in this part of the world. And haven't for many years.
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 06:34 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Good question. Also we never hear anything about that, or any part of the three angels' messages from the pulpit anymore. At least not in this part of the world. And haven't for many years.


I agree Richard, but I must say that Doug Batchelor, Shawn Boonstra, and a few others that are considered more as evangelists definitely do have that in there sermons.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Bacchiocchi, in reference to Revelation 1:10 "I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...", argues that the "Lord's day", referred to in this text, is one of three things. Either it refers to it being a weekly sunday, or an easter sunday, or it refers to it being at the time of Chrst's second coming--the parousia. (See p.122-23 of his book)

Mrs. White says about Revelation 1:10:

"'I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...' The Lord's day is the seventh-day, the Sabbath of creation. On the day that God sanctified and blessed, Christ signified 'by His angel unto His servant John' things that must come to pass before the close of the world's history..." Testimonies, Vol.6,p.128.5

"The Lord's day mentioned by John was the Sabbath, the day on which Jehovah rested after the great work or creation, and which He blessed and sanctified because He had rested upon it." The Sanctified Life, p.74.4.

In the 1977 edition of From Sabbath to Sunday, Bacchiocchi states that his viewpoints "differ radically" from the traditional position of the SDA church. But in the 1979 edition, he states that his viewpoints "differ somewhat" from the traditional position of the SDA church. His arguments did not change one bit. So it must be the traditional position of the SDA church that has changed. What is the professed SDA church's position on Revelation 1:10?

In the book called, THE SABBATH IN SCRIPTURE AND HISTORY, published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association in 1982, they state: quote,

"... the phrase 'the Lord's day' in Revelation 1:10... More attention should be given to the possibility that the phrase refers to an annual resurrection celebration." p.127.8.

Truely, our professed SDA church has changed their position on the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation 1:10. To them it no longer means, unquestionably, the Seventh-day Sabbath, but now it could mean easter! Truely, they are working to be just like the world and to give up God's true Sabbath for sunday.

Bacchiocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:16,17, says that Paul was warning against those who promote the moral law Sabbath as being an indispensable aid to Christian perfection. He also states that Paul was saying that the Sabbath was a shadow. (see p.356.4 and 369.3)

Mrs. White says, "The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government." 1 S.M.239-40.

Then Baccihocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:14-16, says:

"In this case Paul is warning against the observance of yearly, monthly, weekly, and holy days in general including the moral Sabbath." p.360.7.

On p.163.2 Bacchiocchi calls the moral Sabbath a Jewish institution and on p.368.2 he calls it ceremonial. What error and deception!

Why did the professed SDA leaders allow him to promote this book in SDA churches? Why did they allow him to remain a professor at our Andrews University, and to teach our future SDA ministers? Why did they allow him to deceive our people?


I think this deserves our close attention. Thanks for pointing these things out to us.



Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 06:52 PM

Originally Posted By: pkrause
Originally Posted By: RLH
Good question. Also we never hear anything about that, or any part of the three angels' messages from the pulpit anymore. At least not in this part of the world. And haven't for many years.


I agree Richard, but I must say that Doug Batchelor, Shawn Boonstra, and a few others that are considered more as evangelists definitely do have that in there sermons.


They also have something else in common: Independent Ministries.
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 07:05 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
They also have something else in common: Independent Ministries.


Good point Richard.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 06/28/11 09:48 PM

Originally Posted By: John317
[quote=skyblue888]
Bacchiocchi, in reference to Revelation 1:10 "I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...", argues that the "Lord's day", referred to in this text, is one of three things. Either it refers to it being a weekly sunday, or an easter sunday, or it refers to it being at the time of Chrst's second coming--the parousia. (See p.122-23 of his book)

Mrs. White says about Revelation 1:10:

"'I (John) was in the Spirit on the Lord's day...' The Lord's day is the seventh-day, the Sabbath of creation. On the day that God sanctified and blessed, Christ signified 'by His angel unto His servant John' things that must come to pass before the close of the world's history..." Testimonies, Vol.6,p.128.5

"The Lord's day mentioned by John was the Sabbath, the day on which Jehovah rested after the great work or creation, and which He blessed and sanctified because He had rested upon it." The Sanctified Life, p.74.4.

In the 1977 edition of From Sabbath to Sunday, Bacchiocchi states that his viewpoints "differ radically" from the traditional position of the SDA church. But in the 1979 edition, he states that his viewpoints "differ somewhat" from the traditional position of the SDA church. His arguments did not change one bit. So it must be the traditional position of the SDA church that has changed. What is the professed SDA church's position on Revelation 1:10?

In the book called, THE SABBATH IN SCRIPTURE AND HISTORY, published by the Review and Herald Publishing Association in 1982, they state: quote,

"... the phrase 'the Lord's day' in Revelation 1:10... More attention should be given to the possibility that the phrase refers to an annual resurrection celebration." p.127.8.

Truely, our professed SDA church has changed their position on the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation 1:10. To them it no longer means, unquestionably, the Seventh-day Sabbath, but now it could mean easter! Truely, they are working to be just like the world and to give up God's true Sabbath for sunday.

Bacchiocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:16,17, says that Paul was warning against those who promote the moral law Sabbath as being an indispensable aid to Christian perfection. He also states that Paul was saying that the Sabbath was a shadow. (see p.356.4 and 369.3)

Mrs. White says, "The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government." 1 S.M.239-40.

Then Baccihocchi, in reference to Colossians 2:14-16, says:

"In this case Paul is warning against the observance of yearly, monthly, weekly, and holy days in general including the moral Sabbath." p.360.7.

On p.163.2 Bacchiocchi calls the moral Sabbath a Jewish institution and on p.368.2 he calls it ceremonial. What error and deception!

Why did the professed SDA leaders allow him to promote this book in SDA churches? Why did they allow him to remain a professor at our Andrews University, and to teach our future SDA ministers? Why did they allow him to deceive our people?


I think this deserves our close attention. Thanks for pointing these things out to us.
________________________________

Your welcome John.

sky :)

Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 03:48 AM

Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10?

WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 07:33 AM

What Jesuits are good at is suggesting doubts. Their goal is to just cause people to entertain doubts-- about everything, and especially about the truth. They realize that if people merely entertain those doubts long enough, they will sooner or later reap a harvest.

We are not encouraged by our Saviour to cherish doubts and fears and distressing forebodings; these bring no relief to the soul and should be rebuked rather than praised. We may have joy unspeakable and full of glory. Ev. 180


Those who are perpetually talking doubts and demanding additional evidence to banish their cloud of unbelief do not build on the Word. Their faith rests on circumstances; it is founded in feeling. But feeling, be it ever so pleasing, is not faith. God's Word is the foundation upon which our hopes of heaven must be built. {HP 106.2}

If we have scattered darkness, if we have accumulated rubbish and hoarded doubts, if we have planted seeds of doubt and discouragement in the minds of others, may God help us to see our sin. We cannot afford to drop a single word of doubt, for it will germinate and grow and bring forth a bitter harvest. We should take heed to the exhortation, "Be ye holy in all manner of conversation" (1 Peter 1:15). One seed of doubt sown, and it is beyond the power of man to kill it. God alone can pluck it from the soul. . . . {HP 106.4}

Men, prompted by Satan, raise doubts as to the truth of God's Word, and exercise their independent judgment. They choose darkness rather than light at the peril of their souls; for God does not propose to remove every objection against his truth which the carnal heart can offer. The mysteries of the Word of God remain such forever to those who refuse to accept the precious rays of light which would illuminate their darkness. {3SP 13.1}

Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 10:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10?

WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley.


I guess there will always be those in the church who cannot see the truth even when it is plain as day.

sky :)
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 10:58 AM

Originally Posted By: skyblue888
Originally Posted By: Overaged
Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10?

WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley.


I guess there will always be those in the church who cannot see the truth even when it is plain as day.

sky :)
But it's not "as plain as day;" and I am sick of people saying it is when it isn't and when proof is no really all there.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 12:39 PM

What more evidence do you want when it is staring at you right in the face?

sky :)
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By: pkrause
Originally Posted By: RLH
They also have something else in common: Independent Ministries.


Good point Richard.


The "irregular lines" you mean?

sky :)
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10?

WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley.


You make a good point. I'm guessing your a SB fan? I've really liked every book of his I've read and not one of them has lead me to believe that I should leave the Adventist church. And as far as I can tell of all those that I know that have left not one has said it was because of SB, its been more because of the bickering that they see within the church, of members coming up with stuff like this.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/01/11 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
>>> Stan & pk, as our professed SDA leadership have given up their aversion to Roman Catholicism

And they are even reading the SOP on how to deal with Catholics... and your statement is way overstated..


I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people. I'm glad our General Conference president doesn't agree with that idea, but I have heard it often. I called about 10 churches close to Loma Linda and asked the secretaries and pastors how often they preached on the Investigative Judgment and the Three Angels Messages, and I only found one church which said they studied and spoke of those things fairly often. One pastor I talked with told me that he didn't even believe in the Investigative Judgment. Another well-known pastor told me that he didn't know for sure what happened in heaven on Oct. 22, 1844. Still another well-known SDA pastor said that he didn't believe that the Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon or that the Sabbath would ever be a test.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: pkrause
Originally Posted By: Overaged
Well; if I was a Jesuit, I wouldn't fiddle around with the Sabbath question much. It would be easier to lead the sheep to their DECEPTION by changing the way people view God's Word. Is Bachiochi doing this just because of what he says re Rev 1:10?

WOW, I guess there will always be those in the church who see a demon under every doyley.


You make a good point. I'm guessing your a SB fan? I've really liked every book of his I've read and not one of them has lead me to believe that I should leave the Adventist church. And as far as I can tell of all those that I know that have left not one has said it was because of SB, its been more because of the bickering that they see within the church, of members coming up with stuff like this.
Actually; no. I am not an "SB Fan" at all. I don't like his writings much. But even at that, when things are said that there may not be a basis for, I feel bound to say something.

The whole Jesuit thing has been blown out of proportion, so that now, people would never recognize one if they saw one. They [Jesuits] would laugh at threads like this, and the stuff said about SB. it's kinda like the devil gettin everyone to believe the devil has a pitchfork and horns and a forked tail/tongue.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 03:26 AM

Originally Posted By: John317
Still another well-known SDA pastor said that he didn't believe that the Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon or that the Sabbath would ever be a test.
This i would have no trouble believing as I have seen similar things here in Canada too.
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 01:40 PM

I really appreciate your posts on this even more OA. It shows that you have no bais one way or the other about Dr. SB.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By: John317

I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people.

This was the sentiment under Neal Wilson's leadership - and published in the Indianapolis Star in July 1990, when that city hosted the GC Session. Shirley Burton, the GC spokesperson was quoted describing the "anti-Catholic" stance as pertaining to a 'small fringe group' only; no longer part of SDA mainstream.

The group had been distributing an abridged version of the Great Controversy in downtown Indianapolis.

Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 03:52 PM

Originally Posted By: pkrause
I've really liked every book of his I've read and not one of them has lead me to believe that I should leave the Adventist church.

The role of Jesuits is not to empty the churches but to sow confusion in them. To introduce a mixed multitude, even increasing membership, but diluting truth with specious fables, so the people are unsure of their foundations. Deep Bible study is passé. "If we can't understand, Jesus will tell us in heaven".

"It's a mystery. Don't worry, be happy."

"Either...or" doctrine is fine with them. Keep the people amused, happy, fed, a good social club. Encourage mingling of the youth, imprudent marriages, soft-pedal calls to repentance.

Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1
Originally Posted By: John317

I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people.

This was the sentiment under Neal Wilson's leadership - and published in the Indianapolis Star in July 1990, when that city hosted the GC Session. Shirley Burton, the GC spokesperson was quoted describing the "anti-Catholic" stance as pertaining to a 'small fringe group' only; no longer part of SDA mainstream.

The group had been distributing an abridged version of the Great Controversy in downtown Indianapolis.



Yes, I'm aware of that. That was one of the incidents I was thinking of when I wrote what I did above. It is ironic that now it's Neal Wilson's son who plans for the distribution of the entire book, Great Controversy. I believe he's right to do it.

In 1975-6, I knew and worked with Neal Wilson's father, and I'm positive he didn't agree with the view of Shirley Burton.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 05:10 PM


The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people.

Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people.



I believe you are right about that Gordon. I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1
Originally Posted By: John317

I'm concerned, though, when I see SDA leaders who don't believe The Great Controversy and believe that we shouldn't give that book to the people.

This was the sentiment under Neal Wilson's leadership - and published in the Indianapolis Star in July 1990, when that city hosted the GC Session. Shirley Burton, the GC spokesperson was quoted describing the "anti-Catholic" stance as pertaining to a 'small fringe group' only; no longer part of SDA mainstream.

The group had been distributing an abridged version of the Great Controversy in downtown Indianapolis.

There's a right way and a right time and a right place for everything. Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people.



I believe you are right about that Gordon. I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.
The regular version we use today works just fine, and there is nothing wrong with it. As one who has gone door to door with all of our books; I can easily demonstrate this. The real problem is not usually the books; it is the person, and how they use the book. And that would also apply to the Bible.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The 1884 Great Controversy will better wake the people.



I believe you are right about that Gordon. I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.
Why have them if they are hidden?
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 08:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.


I don't think so O/A. Your statement seems to trust in the arm of man, and not God. Here is what God's messenger had to say about it:

The book Bible Readings was crowded in before Great Controversy, which was already printed, and which should have been placed in the canvasser's hands first because it contained important matter, which the people needed to have as soon as possible. It seemed that I was mocked because of my intense earnestness in regard to that book, and what it might have done had it not been dropped as it was, and through unsanctified influences and selfish, unprincipled methods shut away from the people. This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God. {PM 237.2}

Men who have not had a vital connection with God see no real necessity of the book Great Controversy coming to the people, because they have eyes but see not. This book should be circulated all through this city. {1888 772.1}

And in the very next paragraph:

The Lord presented the matter before me, that we must make haste. Let the light come to the people in warnings, right here. But those who were seeing only gain, who saw no necessity of urging and making special efforts to get this word from the Lord before the people, were neglecting their God-given duty. I felt intensely, but what could I do? Strong-minded, stubborn men, unworked by the Spirit of God, priding themselves in their wisdom, would follow a course of their own devising, let the result be as it would. The men will have to answer in the day of God for their neglect of this place. Light must shine forth. {1888 772.2}

I arose early, attended morning meeting, and read an article written in regard to the canvassers working so largely for one book, Bible Readings, and letting Volume IV [The Great Controversy] fall dead from the press. The very matter that the people are in need of they do not have, because there is no interest manifested to circulate it. {MR1033 15.2}

There are more statements, but I see no reason to bombard you with them.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Why have them if they are hidden?


Because I bought them years ago before I left the church to go and waste most of my life. I have only been back for a relatively short time, and was just now reminded of them when Gordon said: "1884 GC"
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 08:31 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
I have a whole case of those in paperback here somewhere, if I can find them.

Purple cover?

Interesting to note that the Spirit of Prophecy series Vols. l - 4 (& Sketches from the Life of Paul) were never indexed in print by the White Estate. Nor do they contain their own indexes.

i.e. - Neither the 1926 single-volume EGW Index, nor the 1962-3 three-volume Index, include these precious books.

Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 08:52 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
"This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God."

"Strong-minded, stubborn men, unworked by the Spirit of God, priding themselves in their wisdom...and letting Volume IV [The Great Controversy] fall dead from the press."


Good digging Richard. Plain evidence that Ellen White had little control over which books were printed or distributed.

People need to know that she was hated & abused by men who "will have to answer in the day of God for their neglect."

Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1
Originally Posted By: RLH
"This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God."

"Strong-minded, stubborn men, unworked by the Spirit of God, priding themselves in their wisdom...and letting Volume IV [The Great Controversy] fall dead from the press."


Good digging Richard. Plain evidence that Ellen White had little control over which books were printed or distributed.

People need to know that she was hated & abused by men who "will have to answer in the day of God for their neglect."

Richard's quotes are quite irrelevant to what I said; as I was specifically referring to the militant fanatics such as we have seen at certain GC meetings, like the one in Indianappolis.

It is not wrong in cases like this to speak against it; and Ellen White was NOT saying in any of those quotes that we must always use great controversy first. The quotes speak clearly to a localized issue where a few men at the top tried to minimize use of the book by literature evangelists. This was clearly wrong; but in denouncing it; Ellen White never once tried to say that the great controversy could/should be used in fanatical militant ways that reeked of hatred and abuse.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:19 PM

Actually; if Richard would have put it in a proper context; he would have quoted "the rest of the story."

Quote:
Let us not open a door whereby Satan shall find easy access. We want large, sound souls. The windows of the soul must always open heavenward. We must see that the danger is great in the work of reconsidering past royalties and making restitution. Some who have received all the real value of their books will think them of much greater value than they are. Their windows are opened earthward and not heavenward. Throw open the windows heavenward, and let the sunshine of Christ's righteousness in, and the windows of the soul now opened earthward will close of themselves. {PM 237.1}
No one can have been hurt financially more than I was hurt when The Great Controversy lay for nearly two years dead in the office. Just work was not done in this matter. The book Bible Readings was crowded in before Great Controversy, which was already printed, and which should have been placed in the canvasser's hands first because it contained important matter, which the people needed to have as soon as possible. It seemed that I was mocked because of my intense earnestness in regard to that book, and what it might have done had it not been dropped as it was, and through unsanctified influences and selfish, unprincipled methods shut away from the people. This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God. {PM 237.2}
But I would not now take any restitution money. I accepted the lowest royalty on my books, under a most solemn promise that they would be pushed forward vigorously. This promise was not kept. There was fraud in the management. But I want no restitution; I want no increase of royalty for any books of mine sold in the past. God forbid, when the pressure is strong and means limited, that I should draw one penny from the resources for the carrying forward of the work. {PM 237.3}
So essentially; this was really just a situation between Ellen White and the publisher of her books at that time; and this situation had the effect of witholding the great controversy from the literature ministry; but to try and make this out to be an issue where our leaders now say such things about that book; is just plain not doing your homework and telling the truth about the matter.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:23 PM

How in the world do you connect the distribution of the "Great Controversy" with words like "fanatical, militant, hatred, and abuse"? That to me, is a bizarre statement to say the least. And I've never seen anything like that done. How could anybody distribute that book with hatred and abuse?

Please enlighten me.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:26 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
How in the world do you connect the distribution of the "Great Controversy" with words like "fanatical, militant, hatred, and abuse"? That to me, is a bizarre statement to say the least. And I've never seen anything like that done. How could anybody distribute that book with hatred and abuse?

Please enlighten me.
Well; you must have your horse-blinkers on. I just stated the context of my posts several times.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
but to try and make this out to be an issue where our leaders now say such things about that book; is just plain not doing your homework and telling the truth about the matter.


Originally Posted By: Overaged
if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that.


Hmmmm. Of course you are free to believe and follow whoever you want to. But the "truth" of the matter seems to be that they try to suppress the book more now than they did then.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:40 PM


The 1884 GC is notably different from the 1911 version now in circulation.
The 1884 is (very roughly) about one-half the word count. (If anyone has the figures, please post).

And the chapter titles are much more descriptive of the Advent movement.
Overall the 1884 GC is a more compact read for a busy schedule.

Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Overaged
but to try and make this out to be an issue where our leaders now say such things about that book; is just plain not doing your homework and telling the truth about the matter.


Originally Posted By: Overaged
if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that.


Hmmmm. Of course you are free to believe and follow whoever you want to. But the "truth" of the matter seems to be that they try to suppress the book more now than they did then.
Not true; and the quotes you provided don't even come close to proving this statement. Seems to me this "arm of man" you accuse me so confidently of has started growing on you. What on earth do you mean "seems to be?" Don't we need a lot more than a half-baked "seems to be" in order to call it "truth?"
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Well; you must have your horse-blinkers on. I just stated the context of my posts several times.



No, you merely referred to "militant fanatics" like the ones in Indianappolis. How were they militant fanatics, with hatred and abuse in their hearts? I wasn't there, so I'm asking.

Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:45 PM

And how much do the SDA leaders of today long to have this religion accepted among the large Sunday-keeping denominations?!
The Great Controversy book speaks for itself, sets its own tone of exposing the past to warn of the future... emphasis on the word "warn".
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:47 PM

Here is how it came together.

Spiritual gifts, the small volume set, each contained two books
as knowledge and writing skills increased became
Spirit of Prophesy set of 4 books
Book 4 became what we call The Great Controversy (Not EGW choice of name btw)
Several revisions over the years, I have an 1885 edition, there is no record of such

all four books, along with Life Sketches of Paul
became

The Conflict of Ages set, as we know it now.

EGW writing skills along with her editors end up with a great well written product.

With every revision, paranoia grew, and still does. ALLMOST like she did not learn anything over 50 years.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:49 PM

ever notice that it is people who often do not go to Church proclaim Jesuit infiltration?

WHY IS THAT?
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Not true; and the quotes you provided don't even come close to proving this statement.


The quotes I provided as proof of the statement came from you.

Quote:
if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed"... I am all with that.


Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
ever notice that it is people who often do not go to Church proclaim Jesuit infiltration?


No, I haven't. Who are you referring to?
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
ever notice that it is people who often do not go to Church proclaim Jesuit infiltration?

WHY IS THAT?
Yes, this is mostly true. Mind you I have actually talked to people who said they have just joined the Adventist Church to "change it from within;" and while some of us can point out a genuine example or two of this, there has developed over the years a whole cult following of this Jesuit paranoia and hub bub.

I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 10:12 PM


Spiritual Gifts and the Spirit of Prophecy volumes are all well-written books.

Stan, who selected The Great Controversy as a title, if not EGW or James?

This was used for the 1858 version (Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1)

Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 10:20 PM

I don't remember the details... She wanted it changed to "Triumph of God's Love" this could have been later on when they were going to sell it aggressively to the General Public.

Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 10:33 PM

Thanks Stan, that's the title of my first SDA book.
The Triumph of God's Love - a paperback version of the 1911 GC.

Purple cover with yellow lettering. A 1971 edition by Pacific Press.

But as I understand it, the 1884 was also a big mover when it was published. Apparently the plates were worn out due to a wide public circulation. I recall 50,000 as the figure.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 11:44 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
quote=Overaged]Not true; and the quotes you provided don't even come close to proving this statement. /quote]

The quotes I provided as proof of the statement came from you.

quote]if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed"... I am all with that./quote]

Why are you insisting on quoting small snippets of what people say or write, and making that their message? You know that is wrong to do. Lets look at your hawkish comment a little closer then if you insist on going this route.

Who or what was I talking about when I said "If a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" then I am all with that?" Why did you just quote part of what I said? Are you so desperate to prove a lie that you would start slandering your own brethren?
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/02/11 11:52 PM

When I managed an Adventist Book Centre, someone asked one of the staff if he could buy an 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, he wanted it from a publisher that was long ago our of business as far as we could tell.

He put in his news letter that I was a Jesuit who had infiltrated and I refused to sell the book Great Controversy.

Even after he finally respond to me, he kept this in his newsletter for months.

Great fundraising scam. He was in Los Angeles, and was either a MD taking law, or a Lawyer going back to school to be an MD.


That is not the only time w winner has tried to expose me as a Jesuit.

I can say this, there are a lot of gullible folks who fall for sensational things.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
...There's a right way and a right time and a right place for everything. Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.


I do agree that there are times when Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Steps to Christ, Ministry of Healing or even short chapters of these books would be more fitting to give away. Not all people are going to read the Great Controversy, so in some instances it might be a waste of good material.

As a former tutor in reading & writing at the public library, I can tell you that many, many adults wouldn't even be able to read The Great Controversy, at least with any real comprehension.

Yet I think it is important to remember that of all her books, Ellen White said that she felt the most burden to see The Great Controversy have a wide distribution. I have to believe that it was God who gave her that burden.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 12:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Why are you insisting on quoting small snippets of what people say or write, and making that their message?


I left out the words "in such ways". What would be a bad way to give out GC books?

And you never did answer my question about Indianappolis. How were they militant fanatics, with hatred and abuse in their hearts?

And before you protest, and say that you didn't use the word "hearts", I AM assuming that they didn't carry it in their pockets.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
When I managed an Adventist Book Centre, someone asked one of the staff if he could buy an 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, he wanted it from a publisher that was long ago our of business as far as we could tell.

He put in his news letter that I was a Jesuit who had infiltrated and I refused to sell the book Great Controversy.


And of course you were perfectly willing to sell him the 1911 edition of The Great Controversy.

Sounds like what he did was far worse than what he was accusing you of.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
When I managed an Adventist Book Centre, someone asked one of the staff if he could buy an 1888 edition of the Great Controversy, he wanted it from a publisher that was long ago our of business as far as we could tell.

He put in his news letter that I was a Jesuit who had infiltrated and I refused to sell the book Great Controversy.

Even after he finally respond to me, he kept this in his newsletter for months.

Great fundraising scam. He was in Los Angeles, and was either a MD taking law, or a Lawyer going back to school to be an MD.


That is not the only time w winner has tried to expose me as a Jesuit.

I can say this, there are a lot of gullible folks who fall for sensational things.
Jesuit Wolf Stan
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 01:48 AM

Stan, you should have poked him in the eye with your pencil when you had the chance! LOL
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Overaged
Why are you insisting on quoting small snippets of what people say or write, and making that their message?


I left out the words "in such ways". What would be a bad way to give out GC books?

And you never did answer my question about Indianappolis. How were they militant fanatics, with hatred and abuse in their hearts?

And before you protest, and say that you didn't use the word "hearts", I AM assuming that they didn't carry it in their pockets.
You left out more than that and you know it. I have already stated quite clearly what the partial quote you are twisting refers to. You have done the same with the church and taken a small portion of what was written in Publishing Ministry to try to accuse/prove church leaders today of something not even half true.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 02:00 AM

Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: Overaged
...There's a right way and a right time and a right place for everything. Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.


I do agree that there are times when Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Steps to Christ, Ministry of Healing or even short chapters of these books would be more fitting to give away. Not all people are going to read the Great Controversy, so in some instances it might be a waste of good material.

As a former tutor in reading & writing at the public library, I can tell you that many, many adults wouldn't even be able to read The Great Controversy, at least with any real comprehension.

Yet I think it is important to remember that of all her books, Ellen White said that she felt the most burden to see The Great Controversy have a wide distribution. I have to believe that it was God who gave her that burden.
True, there was a time when she had this burden; but I would draw the line at making that burden apply everywhere, all the time.
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 07:15 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
You left out more than that and you know it. I have already stated quite clearly what the partial quote you are twisting refers to. You have done the same with the church and taken a small portion of what was written in Publishing Ministry to try to accuse/prove church leaders today of something not even half true.


Still no answer eh? I guess it is easier to jump up and down and call me a liar because I didn't quote the whole stupid page. Who does that anyway? I quoted the part I was addressing, so that there is no confusion over what exactly I am talking about. If you think the rest is so important, why not just incorporate it into your answer, instead of calling me names?

Oh that's right, you don't have an answer. I think we've talked enough.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 07:56 AM

Tone it down.
Posted by: 'nuff sed

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 08:03 AM

If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH
Originally Posted By: Overaged
Groups that over-emphasize certain points usually do it to the point of being abusive, and worse, such as the quacks who shove great controversy materials down everyone's throats at those meetings. They have arisen a few times like this in a few places; and if a leader says they don't think the great controversy should be "distributed" in such ways, I am all with that. Shirley's description was quite fitting. Your "concern" is not in the right place here.


I don't think so O/A. Your statement seems to trust in the arm of man, and not God. Here is what God's messenger had to say about it:

The book Bible Readings was crowded in before Great Controversy, which was already printed, and which should have been placed in the canvasser's hands first because it contained important matter, which the people needed to have as soon as possible. It seemed that I was mocked because of my intense earnestness in regard to that book, and what it might have done had it not been dropped as it was, and through unsanctified influences and selfish, unprincipled methods shut away from the people. This was a dishonest transaction toward me, and it was unfaithful stewardship toward God. {PM 237.2}

Men who have not had a vital connection with God see no real necessity of the book Great Controversy coming to the people, because they have eyes but see not. This book should be circulated all through this city. {1888 772.1}

Unfortunately; this is not all there is to the story, and I say unfortunately because some like to use just this part of the story to say things about church or church leaders today which are not true. There are also times and places where Ellen White says the same high emphasis should be placed on Christs Object lessons and Ministry Of Healing:

Quote:
In many instances if promising youth were wisely encouraged and properly directed, they could be led to earn their own schooling by taking up the sale of Christ's Object Lessons or The Ministry of Healing. In selling these books they would be acting as missionaries, for they would be bringing light to the notice of the people of the world. At the same time they would be earning money to enable them to attend school where they could continue their preparation for wider usefulness in the Lord's cause. In the school they would receive encouragement and inspiration from teachers and students to continue their work of selling books; and when the time came for them to leave school, they would have received a practical
527
training, fitting them for the hard, earnest, self-sacrificing labor that has to be done in many foreign fields, where the third angel's message must be carried under difficult and trying circumstances. {CT 526.2}

Note that she specifically advises this in countries where "the third angel's message must be carried under difficult circumstances." No mention of the great controversy here at all. To say what you are saying about the church is not only out of context; it is not the truth at all. The 2 small quotes you gave from PM reprove the fact that some were trying to make more money by not selling the great controversy; yet in the quote I just provided, she says to do the opposite. She advises to sell COL & MH to MAKE MONEY. If we go with your take on this; we also make Ellen White a liar. Or is this what you want to do?
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 03:52 PM

Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed
If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed


Thanks for posting that....have had that thought every time this subject comes up.

(We have met the enemy and he is us!)
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 04:33 PM

Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed
If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed


thumbsup
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: CoAspen
Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed
If I were a Jesuit I would be laughing my fool head off right about now!!!! Nuff sed


Thanks for posting that....have had that thought every time this subject comes up.

(We have met the enemy and he is us!)
Yes indeed. If I were a Jesuit; I would be quite happy (and laughing) at anything in this topic, as long as people didn't start to believe the truth. You are right - a lot of us get too carried away with this.
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 09:43 PM

Dear Overaged, on page 46 you said this: "I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories."
In response to your comment, I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world. If that book is not to reveal conspiracy of Satan against God, then what is it supposed to be about?
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 09:52 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Originally Posted By: John317

Yet I think it is important to remember that of all her books, Ellen White said that she felt the most burden to see The Great Controversy have a wide distribution. I have to believe that it was God who gave her that burden.


True, there was a time when she had this burden; but I would draw the line at making that burden apply everywhere, all the time.


There is no question that she believed there were times when some of her other books would be best to give to people.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/03/11 09:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

The 1884 GC is notably different from the 1911 version now in circulation.
The 1884 is (very roughly) about one-half the word count. (If anyone has the figures, please post).


Ellen White approved of the printing of both the 1884 and 1911 editions. They were intended for different audiences.

I study from both volumes. They both tell the same basic story and contain the same fundamental truths.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 12:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Restin
Dear Overaged, on page 46 you said this: "I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories."
In response to your comment, I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world. If that book is not to reveal conspiracy of Satan against God, then what is it supposed to be about?
You ask a good question; and a fair question.

By "conspiracy theories," I mean the kind that accuse the Adventist Church; and so I would have to still say that she did not write the book for the express purpose of doing this to the Adventist Church.

A lot of people do correctly state that GC reveals Satan's workings; yet what we often find missing from that is Christ's workings. The book is about Christ's workings, first and foremost. "The Triumph Of God's Love" was one of the most fitting titles ever given to this book. It is one of the most Christ-entered books I know of except for the Bible; but not many are willing/able to put this kind of emphasis on it.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 12:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Restin
I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world.
You might also be interested in reading the following comments Ellen G White wrote about The GC:

Quote:
Ellen G. White’s Statement
Regarding the 1911 Edition of The Great Controversy

A few days ago I received a copy of the new edition of the book The Great Controversy, recently printed at Mountain View, and also a similar copy printed at Washington. The book pleases me. I have spent many hours looking through its pages, and I see that the publishing houses have done good work.

The book The Great Controversy I appreciate above silver or gold, and I greatly desire that it shall come before the people. While writing the manuscript of The Great Controversy, I was often conscious of the presence of the angels of God. And many times the scenes about which I was writing were presented to me anew in visions of the night, so that they were fresh and vivid in my mind.

Recently it was necessary for this book to be reset, because the electrotype plates were badly worn. It has cost me much to have this done, but I do not complain; for whatever the cost may be, I regard this new edition with great satisfaction.

Yesterday I read what W. C. White has recently written to canvassing agents and responsible men at our publishing houses regarding this latest edition of The Great Controversy, and I think he has presented the matter correctly and well.

When I learned that The Great Controversy must be reset, I determined that we would have everything closely examined, to see if the truths it contained were stated in the very best manner, to convince those not of our faith that the Lord had guided and sustained me in the writing of its pages.

As a result of the thorough examination by our most experienced workers, some changing in the wording has been proposed. These changes I have carefully examined and approved. I am thankful that my life has been spared, and that I have strength and clearness of mind for this and other literary work.

While preparing the book on the Acts of the Apostles, the Lord has kept my mind in perfect peace. This book will soon be ready for publication. When this book is ready for publication, if the Lord sees fit to let me rest, I shall say Amen, and Amen. If the Lord spares my life, I will continue to write, and to bear my testimony in the congregation of the people, as the Lord shall give me strength and guidance.

There is now a great work of soul-saving to be accomplished in the home field. There should be a general awakening on the part of the people, and fresh efforts made to get the light of present truth before the world. In cities and villages and towns, in every possible way, let the light shine forth. Missionaries are needed everywhere, and hundreds of workers from our ranks should be carrying the light of truth to those who know it not. The messengers of truth must be wide awake. The Lord says to them, "Let light go forth in warnings and in opening and explaining the scriptures to the people."

Day by day golden opportunities are opening for our publications to go forth as silent messengers of truth. Let men and women be selected for the canvassing work—not from the floating, careless element, but from those who carry a burden for the extension of the knowledge of truth. Keen foresight and consecrated ability are needed at this time. Let those be selected for the canvassing work who are adapted to this line of work. Let not these feel that they must work hard to obtain a license to preach. The Lord is calling for efficient laborers in many lines of service. If there is one work more important than another, it is that of getting before the people the publications that will explain to them the Word of God.

Parents should consider that their children are constantly beset by temptation. They would receive strength to resist temptation if they would study with deep searching of heart the books containing the light of truth for this time. Parents, do not encourage your children to read literature that will be no help to them spiritually. Do not encourage them to read the story of the life of Christ in the form of a novel. We need to make solid, earnest preparation for the great day of God.

God calls for missionary work to be done in our homes. Years have passed into eternity leaving undone the work of conversion that should have been accomplished in our families. Many of our youth are not being fitted for the work that needs to be done. They are to let the light of truth shine forth in their lives.--Letter 56, 1911. (To F. M. Wilcox, July 25, 1911, from Sanitarium, California.)

Ellen G. White Estate
Washington, D. C.
March, 1962. Retyped March, 1989.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 12:39 AM


Originally Posted By: John317

Ellen White approved of the printing of both the 1884 and 1911 editions. They were intended for different audiences.

Both books were intended for general circulation to the public.

Some try to claim the 1884 GC was 'for the church only', but this contradicts her own wishes that this book should have wide circulation, and that the plates were worn out from a printing of 50,000 copies - and this by 1887 or 1888.

Even by 1892, the total SDA membership, domestic & foreign was only 33,775. (Statistical Report, 1893 GC Bulletin)

So the 1884 GC was obviously intended to reach beyond the church members.

John, if you have a different story, please indicate which were the different audiences you mentioned and your sources for this info.

Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 02:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
Ellen G. White's Statement
Regarding the 1911 Edition of The Great Controversy

A few days ago I received a copy of the new edition of the book The Great Controversy, recently printed at Mountain View, and also a similar copy printed at Washington. The book pleases me. I have spent many hours looking through its pages, and I see that the publishing houses have done good work.

The book The Great Controversy I appreciate above silver or gold, and I greatly desire that it shall come before the people. While writing the manuscript of The Great Controversy, I was often conscious of the presence of the angels of God. And many times the scenes about which I was writing were presented to me anew in visions of the night, so that they were fresh and vivid in my mind.

Recently it was necessary for this book to be reset, because the electrotype plates were badly worn. It has cost me much to have this done, but I do not complain; for whatever the cost may be, I regard this new edition with great satisfaction.

Yesterday I read what W. C. White has recently written to canvassing agents and responsible men at our publishing houses regarding this latest edition of The Great Controversy, and I think he has presented the matter correctly and well.

When I learned that The Great Controversy must be reset, I determined that we would have everything closely examined, to see if the truths it contained were stated in the very best manner, to convince those not of our faith that the Lord had guided and sustained me in the writing of its pages.

As a result of the thorough examination by our most experienced workers, some changing in the wording has been proposed. These changes I have carefully examined and approved. I am thankful that my life has been spared, and that I have strength and clearness of mind for this and other literary work.

While preparing the book on the Acts of the Apostles, the Lord has kept my mind in perfect peace. This book will soon be ready for publication. When this book is ready for publication, if the Lord sees fit to let me rest, I shall say Amen, and Amen. If the Lord spares my life, I will continue to write, and to bear my testimony in the congregation of the people, as the Lord shall give me strength and guidance.

There is now a great work of soul-saving to be accomplished in the home field. There should be a general awakening on the part of the people, and fresh efforts made to get the light of present truth before the world. In cities and villages and towns, in every possible way, let the light shine forth. Missionaries are needed everywhere, and hundreds of workers from our ranks should be carrying the light of truth to those who know it not. The messengers of truth must be wide awake. The Lord says to them, "Let light go forth in warnings and in opening and explaining the scriptures to the people."

Day by day golden opportunities are opening for our publications to go forth as silent messengers of truth. Let men and women be selected for the canvassing work&#151;not from the floating, careless element, but from those who carry a burden for the extension of the knowledge of truth. Keen foresight and consecrated ability are needed at this time. Let those be selected for the canvassing work who are adapted to this line of work. Let not these feel that they must work hard to obtain a license to preach. The Lord is calling for efficient laborers in many lines of service. If there is one work more important than another, it is that of getting before the people the publications that will explain to them the Word of God.

Parents should consider that their children are constantly beset by temptation. They would receive strength to resist temptation if they would study with deep searching of heart the books containing the light of truth for this time. Parents, do not encourage your children to read literature that will be no help to them spiritually. Do not encourage them to read the story of the life of Christ in the form of a novel. We need to make solid, earnest preparation for the great day of God.

God calls for missionary work to be done in our homes. Years have passed into eternity leaving undone the work of conversion that should have been accomplished in our families. Many of our youth are not being fitted for the work that needs to be done. They are to let the light of truth shine forth in their lives.--Letter 56, 1911. (To F. M. Wilcox, July 25, 1911, from Sanitarium, California.)

Ellen G. White Estate
Washington, D. C.
March, 1962. Retyped March, 1989.


Thanks for posting this. Well worth studying and keeping in mind.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 02:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

So the 1884 GC was obviously intended to reach beyond the church members.

John, if you have a different story, please indicate which were the different audiences you mentioned and your sources for this info.



When Ellen White wrote the 1884 edition of The Great Controversy, she was writing primarily with the SDA church in mind, whereas by 1911 Ellen White's idea of her audience had greatly expanded. That is why she gave consideration to how Catholics and others would react to her language. That is also why she included an Introduction in which she explained things that SDAs were already aware of. I'm not denying that Ellen White had hoped and wanted the 1884 edition to be read by non-SDAs. But the design of the two books and the main emphasis of her thinking in the writing was different in 1884 compared to 1911.
Posted by: Restin

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 09:09 AM

I hear you, Overaged.
I have a copy of "Triumph of God's Love", about 8"x 10", generously illustrated with pen & ink drawings. From the 1950's some time. I cherish it very much...tho wish that artist got a little credit for such excellent work.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: Restin
I hear you, Overaged.
I have a copy of "Triumph of God's Love", about 8"x 10", generously illustrated with pen & ink drawings. From the 1950's some time. I cherish it very much...tho wish that artist got a little credit for such excellent work.
True; there are a number of different covers/artwork on the various titles for this book. I imagine it is related in some ways to the author/publisher, and some ideas about it they want to impress upon people in a particular time of place. There is even a gender-neutral version of The Great Controversy out, which I think is a good idea too. It is for certain times and certain people groups to whom this would be important.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 09:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Restin
Dear Overaged, on page 46 you said this: "I really object to the idea we see here of using Ellen White's writings to "prove" any such related conspiracy theories."
In response to your comment, I thought Sister White wrote Great Controversy specifically to reveal how Satan works through the Jesuits and Catholic Church to manipulate political leaders, kings, and nations, to defeat the plans of God to save this world. If that book is not to reveal conspiracy of Satan against God, then what is it supposed to be about?


Right on!

In 1896 a testimony was sent to the effect that as a people we had lost our bearings. Isn't it time for us to find our bearings back?

sky :)
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: skyblue888
Right on!

In 1896 a testimony was sent to the effect that as a people we had lost our bearings. Isn't it time for us to find our bearings back?

sky :)
Not quite. Whatever "testimony" you are referring to is being used here out of context. Some have. Some have not. Jeremiah 3:15 is a promise that I have personally seen come true just last week.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 01:18 PM

"The people to whom God has entrusted eternal interests, the depositories of truth pregnant with eternal results, the keepers of light that is to illuminate the whole world, have lost their bearings." T.M.397.

I never said that we had to wait for the whole church to find her bearings. This is an individual responsibility but once the Lord has helped us find our bearings back, it is our duty to share with others how.

sky
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 02:24 PM

Ellen White on Jesuits:

Quote:
Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time, the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from every earthly tie and human interest, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy. {GC88 234.2}
When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering
to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites. All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind, and dazzle and captivate the imagination; and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC88 234.3}

... Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 10.] See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC88 565.3}
Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 566.1}


Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/04/11 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: John317

Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?


thumbsup
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 01:55 AM

Originally Posted By: John317
Ellen White on Jesuits:

Quote:
Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time, the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from every earthly tie and human interest, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy. {GC88 234.2}
When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering
to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of State, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants, to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites. All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind, and dazzle and captivate the imagination; and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC88 234.3}

... Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 10.] See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC88 565.3}
Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 566.1}


Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?
Pretty strong meat here, for sure. I see no reason to not believe it though. I wonder too; do Adventists still believe this:

Quote:
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Thanks for searching out these quotes John 317. They are worth studying in the light of Bible prophecy.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 07:55 AM


In decades past, most public libraries carried numerous Protestant books warning of Jesuit aims & methods to control society and bring the world into subjection to Rome.

And for this reason, libraries have been specifically targeted in order that such books be removed from circulation or placed in special collections. Jesuits or their agents join library boards and implement policy changes.

So, few people have read the older books. Today the ideals of Protestantism have lost almost all meaning as the ecumenical movement takes hold.

The good works of the Jesuit Order are for increasing their influence in society, inheriting estates, etc. No crime is forbidden if it can extend Rome's reach. "The end justifies the means".



Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: John317
Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

Do you find it in the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe.."?

Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 10:14 AM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

In decades past, most public libraries carried numerous Protestant books warning of Jesuit aims & methods to control society and bring the world into subjection to Rome.

And for this reason, libraries have been specifically targeted in order that such books be removed from circulation or placed in special collections. Jesuits or their agents join library boards and implement policy changes.

So, few people have read the older books. Today the ideals of Protestantism have lost almost all meaning as the ecumenical movement takes hold.

The good works of the Jesuit Order are for increasing their influence in society, inheriting estates, etc. No crime is forbidden if it can extend Rome's reach. "The end justifies the means".



I don't know man...that's a lot of "stuff" to say without any real proof - not to mention, Do you know how many "Jesuits" it would take to do all that? I think the whole thing is not understood well. Not that I don't believe what Ellen White wrote - just saying I don't think we are reading it right.
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 11:07 AM

Do you know how many "Jesuits" it would take to do all that?

As many as needed.

I think the whole thing is not understood well. Not that I don't believe what Ellen White wrote - just saying I don't think we are reading it right.

How do you read it?

sky
Posted by: RLH

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 04:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1
Originally Posted By: John317
Question: Do we Seventh-day Adventists still believe this?

Do you find it in the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe.."?



Nope....sure don't.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/05/11 11:49 PM

Originally Posted By: RLH

Do you find it in the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe.."?

/quote]

Nope....sure don't.
Guess it's been a while since you read that book eh?
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/06/11 01:01 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I don't know man...that's a lot of "stuff" to say without any real proof - not to mention, Do you know how many "Jesuits" it would take to do all that? I think the whole thing is not understood well. Not that I don't believe what Ellen White wrote - just saying I don't think we are reading it right.


Yes Overaged, and there's more. How many would it take? The Jesuits established their first North American college in Quebec around 1633. I believe they were in the Chinese Royal court before this (Ricci). Over 3 or 4 centuries, one can cover much ground. They are focused and dedicated to one aim. Mostly unmarried with almost infinite resources at their disposal if required. Relatively few Adventists are interested in Reformation history, but here we find the modern roots of the church.

Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/06/11 01:45 AM

I would be interested in this "history" IF it can be validated. Trouble with most of what has been said here except for a bit by Ellen White; is that it is not validated/proven. No reference whatever for a lot of it.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/07/11 10:05 AM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
I would be interested in this "history" IF it can be validated. Trouble with most of what has been said here except for a bit by Ellen White; is that it is not validated/proven. No reference whatever for a lot of it.


Yes. One would hope these matters of history would be common knowledge, at least amongst the remnant, but these facts have been hidden so long or obscured by sports scores that now they wear the cloak of 'conspiracy theory' or heresy.

When there's an extra minute, I'll post links, but here are some references which can be Googled:

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Have you read any old books (100 yrs.+)written by Protestants?

For starters, The Great Controversy pp. 234-236 as I recall.

All Christians should read Fifty Years in the Church of Rome by Quebecer Charles Chiniquy (1885). An autobiographical classic.

All SDAs should view Jim Arrabito's 2 hour video Behind the Door detailing Jesuit Infiltration of the SDA Church. (c. 1986) Disturbing testimony by many SDA workers, most now in the grave. Jesuits will enter the SDA seminary, marry a nice SDA girl and proceed into the ministry. It should be no surprise. The Jesuits are the intelligence arm of the Vatican. Modern government spy agencies are modeled on their blueprint. See it on YouTube or GoogleVideo.

The Black Pope is the Superior General of the Society of Jesus, (The Jesuits) founded by Ignatius Loyola c. 1540 for the express purpose of crushing the Protestant Reformation, and hence labeled the counter reformation.

Spirituallysmart.com
has many photos demonstrating the Vatican's influence over present-day politicians and exposure of the Jesuit role. A wake-up for SDAs.

The founder of the Morse code was Samuel Morse who wrote a book about the Jesuit plans for the U.S. From memory this was in 1835.
________________________________________

Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/07/11 11:12 PM

I did Google.... a lot of conspiracy sites!!!

Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/08/11 01:07 PM

Does it really matter that there should be many conspiracy sites?

Facts are facts and the truth is still the truth.

sky :)
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/08/11 11:08 PM

Read Stans posted about the so called Alberto Rivera.....GIGO, yes it is.
Posted by: Stan Jensen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/08/11 11:11 PM

here it is....

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459243
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/08/11 11:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Yes. One would hope these matters of history would be common knowledge, at least amongst the remnant, but these facts have been hidden so long or obscured by sports scores that now they wear the cloak of 'conspiracy theory' or heresy.

This whole Jesuit thing has gotten really stupid, and blown way out of proportion. Yes; they do exist, and for a select purpose, but all this mucilaginous voodoo conspiracy theory stuff is impossible to believe.
Posted by: BobRyan

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/09/11 05:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen


That was a helpful post.

So also this one

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post459327


And as already seen - Popes themselves had some pretty harsh words for the real practices of Jesuits as viewed over centuries of time.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/454571/Re_If_You_Were_a_Jesuit.html#Post454571

So does all that add up to the specific case of Alberto Rivera being correct? How can you possibly know for sure either way?

in Christ,

Bob
Posted by: skyblue888

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 10:09 AM

John317 posted this on that other thread:

"But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants Look at the growth of ritualism in England, and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel.
Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see, and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism, and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC88 565, 566}

This is well documented in the book, The Jesuits, by Vatican insider, Malichi Martin. His other book, The Keys of This Blood, is also well worth reading. He shows in that book the interest the Vatican leaders take in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and in what other Christian churches teach. Martin was not anti-Catholic; in fact, he was a staunch defender of the Catholic Church and an admirer of the pope, although he was critical of some of the teachings of the Church about the papal system.

If people who become aware of Rivera's being a fraud think that it means everything he said was a lie, they would be making a big mistake. The reason he was so persuasive is that much of what he said was true.

Jesus said that we should be innocent as doves but wise as serpents, and then He gave us certain principles to apply to test the prophets. We need to use those same principles to test people who come to us with stories such as Alberto Rivera did.

john317
_______

Personally I have never liked Rivera's denunciations of the Catholic Church or of the Jesuits. His work went totally contrary to the following inspired counsel:

"God has jewels in all the churches, and it is not for us to make sweeping denunciations of the professed religious world, but in humility and love, present to all the truth as it is in Jesus. Let men see piety and devotion, let them behold Christlikeness of character, and they will be drawn to the truth." RH Jan,17,1893.

Of course that does not mean that we should not be aware of what the Jesuits are about or what they might be doing behind the scenes but one thing is certain and that is that sweeping denunciation of them is not the way but presenting the truth as it is in Jesus is.

sky
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: john317
The reason he was so persuasive is that much of what he said was true.

Yes John, but much more, he was repeating the same history told in countless Protestant & even Roman Catholic books over the centuries. And his testimony is corroborated by numerous SDA old-timers on Jim Arrabito's Behind the Door, a two hour video on this topic. Arrabito travelled the world documenting locations where the Sabbath had been kept by small groups through the ages. And recording the Pagan relics and symbols of Rome's belief system which were merged with the true faith to bring about Sunday worship.

These images were published in the New (Illustrated) Great Controversy which retained the full 1911 text. The photos were also displayed poster-size in a salon at the 1990 GC Session in Indianapolis. A few weeks later Jim Arrabito died with two of his sons while piloting a private plane in Alaska.

Behind the Door video (2 hr.):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5730251808212460790

Alberto Rivera was a whistleblower. Standard practice is to smear these men and paint them in the darkest hue. Nothing new here.


Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 01:36 PM


Those who have researched the old books will know that Rivera's story is true.

But as John says, even Vatican insider Malachi Martin openly published much of the same quite recently. Why so open? They now have little fear of exposure. The public are asleep.

Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 02:09 PM

I agree with your post, sky.
Posted by: John317

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 02:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1
And his testimony is corroborated by numerous SDA old-timers on Jim Arrabito's Behind the Door, a two hour video on this topic. Arrabito travelled the world documenting locations where the Sabbath had been kept by small groups through the ages. And recording the Pagan relics and symbols of Rome's belief system which were merged with the true faith to bring about Sunday worship.

These images were published in the New (Illustrated) Great Controversy which retained the full 1911 text. The photos were also displayed poster-size in a salon at the 1990 GC Session in Indianapolis. A few weeks later Jim Arrabito died with two of his sons while piloting a private plane in Alaska.

Behind the Door video (2 hr.):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5730251808212460790


Yes, I have copies of that Illustrated Edition of Great Controversy. Arrabito did wonderful work. I'm only sorry he wasn't able to finish it. There is no doubt of the truth of what Ellen White wrote in the Great Controversy.

Even if it were to turn out that Alberto Rivera was a fraud, it wouldn't change the main message since that is based on well-established historical facts. Yet we know, too, that Satan loves for disreputable people to become associated with the truth because he knows this will cause many people to doubt or reject the truth.
Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 02:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1
quote=john317]The reason he was so persuasive is that much of what he said was true./quote]
Yes John, but much more, he was repeating the same history told in countless Protestant & even Roman Catholic books over the centuries.
Which Roman Catholic books would you be talking about? Books, and page numbers please.
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 02:56 PM


I speak of those books published with or without Vatican approval which unabashedly declare her real doctrines and aims. John's example of Malachi Martin's works is a good start, but it reaches far back. For example The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1930) by Rev. Peter Geiermann which admits the Roman Church's change from Saturday to Sunday (p. 50) - and reprinted by an SDA publisher. This is merely a start. The bulk of course are Protestant books which speak more plainly.

Did you check the references posted earlier at your request Overaged? If you're just trolling please own up.


Posted by: Overaged

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

I speak of those books published with or without Vatican approval which unabashedly declare her real doctrines and aims. John's example of Malachi Martin's works is a good start, but it reaches far back. For example The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1930) by Rev. Peter Geiermann which admits the Roman Church's change from Saturday to Sunday (p. 50) - and reprinted by an SDA publisher. This is merely a start. The bulk of course are Protestant books which speak more plainly.

Did you check the references posted earlier at your request Overaged? If you're just trolling please own up.


I thought we were talking about history of the Jesuits?
Posted by: CoAspen

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 03:21 PM

Any one with song writing ability....I hear a song ever time I see the thread title...'If I were a Jesuit'....sung to the tune of 'If I were a rich man', from Fiddler on the Roof!!

rollingsmile
Posted by: pkrause

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 03:40 PM

Originally Posted By: CoAspen
Any one with song writing ability....I hear a song ever time I see the thread title...'If I were a Jesuit'....sung to the tune of 'If I were a rich man', from Fiddler on the Roof!!

rollingsmile



LOL good one CoAspen
Posted by: Gordon1

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By: Overaged
I thought we were talking about history of the Jesuits?
Good point. I meant the soundness of Rivera's story describing the aims of the papacy, including the role of the Jesuits - the pointy end of that assault. From memory it's all Protestant or former Jesuit writers.

Posted by: aldona

Re: If You Were a Jesuit.... - 07/11/11 07:04 PM

Originally Posted By: CoAspen
Any one with song writing ability....I hear a song ever time I see the thread title...'If I were a Jesuit'....sung to the tune of 'If I were a rich man', from Fiddler on the Roof!!

rollingsmile


Please, continue with your song idea! Post the result here or on one of the music forums.


AJ