As I have opined previously, the atonement/reconciliation, which is because of Jesus' sacrifice actually began before the creation of the world (in the heavenly realm). Enoch, Moses and Elijah are covered by the same sacrifice as we are. Enoch lived before the Flood; and we have very little information on the pre-flood culture. It was likely so different from what we have now that our present-day world view can't fathom it. As for Moses and Elijah, they are the first-fruit representation of the righteous dead and the righteous living who will never see death. However, I am humbled (not in a bad way) by Windsor's earlier post (thanks again, Windsor); and am more open to other's thoughts.

Gerry, I'm still not convinced that Jesus entered the MHP in 1844; because I'm not convinced of the validity of the day-for-a-year concept as it pertains to prophecy. My read of those verses in the OT apply to judgement, not prophecy. Again, I'm open to other opinions. In the name of consistency, why would John talk about Satan being bound for 1,000 years if elsewhere in Revelation he used the the day-for a year concept? Using that concept, is it possible that Satan will be bound for 360,000 years? I find that hard to believe. Could the 2,300 days, 1,260 days, 1,290 days, and 1,335 days be literal?

If that is the case than you'll have to come up with the events that would correspond to those dates! Because right now the events that correspond to the dates are pretty firm, I'd say.

And you alone are good?

God had made us all holy, that is, he sanctified us through the death of Christ (Heb 10:10), even if you don't believe it. God does not remember our sins (Heb 10:16, 17), even if Robert reminds God Samie is full of sins. Sins committed are not imputed (2 Cor 5:18, 19), even if Robert imputes to Samie all sins. So many other Biblical proof.

It's you who must stop with your anti-biblical talk, Robert. You cannot even cite related biblical verse to back up your claim.

And when did I insist that we are under the law? You don't even seem to know what you are talking about. Sorry, but why do I have the funny feeling I am just wasting my time discussing with you? You bring out issues out of the blue. Not a good sign.

Yes, JoeMo, they are literal. And they will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

pkrause, the problem with the given dates is that those were based on what proponents thought as the corresponding event specified by Scriptures, when in fact, they were not. An example is the start of the 2300 days. While Scriptures specify a decree for restoration of Jerusalem, proponents of 457 BC came up with the decree then issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus. But Scriptures tell us that decree was specifically for beautification of the temple in Jerusalem making the funny equation "restoration of Jerusalem" = "beautification of the temple".

This perhaps explains why no one seemed to have came up with a difficult question on the alternative chart I proposed in the OP of another thread entitled "End-Time Prophecies in Daniel". Maybe they believe the chart is biblically unimpeachable? Just maybe.

I did not give any date simply because I cannot. The end-time prophecies are yet to be fulfilled in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming.

I don't think so, Gerry. The prevailing understanding of Daniel 8 & 9 does not seem to consider the plain statements of the Master Teacher Himself in Mat 24:15-31. Those statements make quite an impact in the correct understanding of not only Dan 8 & 9 but also Dan 7, 11 & 12.

The Lord had indicated to His disciples that the setting up of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet will trigger a rapid succession of events starting with the great tribulation at the end of which unusual celestial phenomena will occur and will be capped by the 2nd Coming.

Those words of the Savior indirectly tells us that all prophecies related with the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming. Because Daniel records that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will be preceded by the taking away of the 'daily', all other prophecies in Daniel having to do with the taking away of the 'daily' is likewise directly related with the abomination of desolation.

This then will bring us to the inevitable conclusion that since the 2300 days is related with the taking away of the 'daily', it too will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

Can you think of any bible-based reason why I could possibly be wrong?

God knows our sins, Samie, but because of Christ's doing & dying you have been freed from under the law. The law can't demand your death. Why? Because you died to the law in the humanity of Christ. As far as the law is concerned you have met its justice in Christ.

However, we must never say that we have no sin in our lives. We need not become self-righteous. The minute we view ourselves as righteous that minute we no longer need Christ's righteousness.

For the record, I don't outright reject the day-for-a-year concept; I just question it rather than blindly accept it and reject everything else. Sure; the concept has been used for over 1,000 years. People believed the earth was flat for thousands of years, too: but they were wrong. The ancient practice of astrology (which many still use to guide their lives) is partially based on the concept that the universe orbits the earth - something people believed for thousands of years. They were wrong. Peter and Paul both believed that Jesus would return during their lifetimes. They were wrong. That doesn't mean they were infidels; it just means they were wrong. Could the same be true of EGW and the pioneers of our faith? I just don't want to blindly believe whatever the denomination feeds me to the exclusion of all other possibilities.
Concerning the day-for-a-year principle, Daniel 8 talks about the 2,300 "days" (KJV) in relation to the daily sacrifice. Many other translations refer to "evenings and mornings". Since the context of the passage indicates (to me, at least) that they were referring to the sacrifices (Dan. 8:13-14) could the 2,300 days be referring to the evening and morning sacrifices? If so, one could reasonably conclude that 2, 300 evenings and mornings equals 1,150 days. 1,150 days seems (to me at least) to fit better into the 1,260 days, 1,290 days, and 1,335 days referred to at the end of the book of Daniel.
Furthermore, in Dan. 8:26, the angel says:
“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.” Also see Daniel 8:17 and !0:14.
This tells me that the 2,300 days could not have started during Daniel's life; which is in opposition to the traditional SDA view. I'm not saying the traditional SDA view is absolutely wrong; but I am saying it could be wrong. I'm not throwing out the baby with the bathwater here; I'm just saying an intelligent beings, we cannot exclude other possibilities. I will never reject the Sabbath or my belief that Jesus is coming soon - concepts I think we can all agree on.

Be Blessed,
JoeMo

I see Dan. 8 & 9 as being literal days and the reason why is because of all the problems with the traditional adventist view.

Let’s briefly go thru all the problems (these are just the ones off the top of my head, I’m sure there are more):

1) day for a year. There is only one time prophecy where the day for a year even comes close to being a valid principle and that’s the 70 weeks. When it comes to the 1260, 1290 & 1335 day time periods it doesn’t work it all and it definitely doesn’t work for the millennium. A valid principle is something that works across the board not here and there.

2) start date. No start date is ever given for the 2300 days. To say that the 2300 days have the same start date as the 70 weeks is a guess at best. Daniel was never given the start date and if the 70 weeks are ‘cut off’ from the 2300 days who’s to say they aren’t cut off at the end. Once again a guess. The closest thing to a start date that I have been able to find is the appearance of the ram but even I admit that that’s a guess too.

3) cleansing. At the end of the 2300 days the sanctuary is cleansed (a finished cleansing) but that’s not what happens in the traditional adventist view. In that view at the end of the days Jesus goes into the most holy and begins the cleansing not finishes it. How can anyone say that the sanctuary was cleansed in 1844 when it was supposedly just beginning?

4) temple. Jesus speaks of the abomination of desolation being set up in an earthly temple just prior to the time of trouble/great tribulation. 70AD does not fit the description. Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed but no anti-christ figure ever set up anything close to what Jesus described. Revelation does focus on the heavenly sanctuary but Matt 24 does not. So a 3rd temple will exist in Jerusalem just prior to the time of trouble.

5) day of atonement. The day of atonement is part of the fall feasts (trumpets, DOA, tabernacles.) Adventists pull the day of atonement from the fall feasts and say if was fulfilled in 1844 but then fail to show where the trumpets were fulfilled prior and the tabernacles occurred after. The trumpets do not even begin until the 144K are sealed and afflict people who don’t have that same seal. The 144K have not been sealed yet so none of the feasts have been fulfilled including the day of atonement.

Gerry,
Since the angel said the prophecies in Daniel were for the last days, maybe the event(s) that kicks off the 2,300 days haven't happened yet. I've read that the Jews are ready to build a new Temple (i.e., all the timbers and stones are already cut; and the rabbis have inspected and approved of the red heifers). If/when they do build it, maybe that could be the initiating event.

Do you think that when the angel said the events were for the far future, that they could have indeed been initiated in Daniel's lifetime? I'm not saying that what I propose is irrefutable fact; I'm just saying how I read the Bible vs. what EGW and the church state.

Regardless of what the initiating event is, I believe that something to kick off the time of trouble (e.g., war in Middle East, closing of the Straits of Hormuz, collapse of the Dollar/Euro, terrorists setting off a nuke) could happen soon. I'm just not ready to blindly accept our traditional view to the exclusion of every other possibility. It's just a discussion point - not a statement of salvational doctrine.

Nice post, cheddar. You explained the problems with the day-for-a-yeat concept much better than I.

Sunday-keeping had been with us for more than a thousand years likewise, but it does not make sense to you, does it?

It's not what the majority or what the Reformers said. It's what the Master Teacher said. Why not take a glance at the OP of "End-Time Prophecies in Daniel" and tell me where I went against Scriptures in that chart?

Just a thought -

Could the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel be the rebuilding of the Temple and the re-institution of the OT sacrificial system (thus denying the priestly role of Jesus and His all-encompassing sacrifice)? I'm not saying that's what I believe it to be; it's just a thought I had in contemplating this current discussion.

I guess Scriptures have the final say to what the abomination of desolation is:

"abomination" as used in Daniel is from the Hebrew 'shiqquts'; elsewhere in the OT, the same word is used to refer to idols or images representing pagan deity that demands worship (see 1 Kings 11:5-7; 2 Kings 23:13).

Applying the principle that the Bible ought to explain itself (Isa 28:10), the abomination of desolation must necessarily be an "idol" or "image" representing someone who demands worship, or else desolation will follow those who won't worship him.

There is only one such image in the whole of Scriptures that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God, the image of the beast in Rev 13.

It very well could be. I used to think that the AOD was a national Sunday law but that doesn’t fit at all. The AOD might entail Satan rebuilding the temple and marching the ark of the covenant into the most holy place and then him claiming to be God.

I do think there will be a national Sunday law but I think it will happen before that.

No, JoeMoe, cheddar,

Note, the "daily",

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The "daily" is Christ's ministration in the Most Holy place since 1844 and the AOD happens after that.

The 1290 days of Dan. will never come to fruitition because the time is shortened for the elect's sake.

Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

John in his prophecy never mentioned the 1290 or the 1335 days as these will be the days of Dan. that will be shortened, the days amount to 75, 2'1/2 months. The 1260 will be, but is not the 1260 yr prophecy to 1798. This the endtime prophecy of John, Rev 13:

Re 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Re 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

No more continue after that for the beast, so this is endtime literal time prophecy. The fact it being stated "forty and two months" to continue proves it is the end. He can't contimue longer because no more power is given!

Please read and understand what you read!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.