Scuba Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 The kingdom of God is a kingdom. It has a King and a governmental structure consisting of rules by which the citizens of that kingdom live by. It's like that with any kingdom. The kingdom of God is not of this world. That means you will not be able to bring God's kingdom into the secular kingdoms of this world because they will not accept it. People have to be taken out of the secular kingdoms of this world and become citizens of God's kingdom. God's kingdom can't become part of them, they must become part of God kingdom. In other words, becoming part of God's kingdom must be based on His terms, not theirs. In order for that to happen people must know and understand the rules in which they must live by in order to be part of God's kingdom. If they don't agree and accept the rules as their new way of life they cannot be part of God's kingdom. It's that way with any kingdom, God's kingdom is no different. I don't care if they preach Jesus or if they even call Jesus Lord if they don't accept the principles of God's kingdom and agree to live by them they are not part of God's kingdom nor can they be. Quote Sometimes our behavior needs time to catch up to our salvation...
joeb Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I agree completely. We're either followers of Christ with our entire heart, or we aren't followers of Him at all. IOWs, we can't follow Jesus by not following Him. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
LifeHiscost Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I agree completely. We're either followers of Christ with our entire heart, or we aren't followers of Him at all. IOWs, we can't follow Jesus by not following Him. Let see, that would mean that not too many people have any hope for the future. 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.....Matthew 5 For a long time I have seen that as a goal to reach as opposed to that which I am. And that seems to be especially evident when one believes this statement by Jesus as well as through His servant Paul. …14"But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; 15having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16"In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.…Acts 24 …23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.…Romans 8 6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.....Isaiah 64 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Scuba Posted May 8, 2015 Author Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Let see, that would mean that not too many people have any hope for the future. 48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.....Matthew 5 For a long time I have seen that as a goal to reach as opposed to that which I am. And that seems to be especially evident when one believes this statement by Jesus as well as through His servant Paul. …14"But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets; 15having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16"In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.…Acts 24 …23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.…Romans 8 6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.....Isaiah 64 God is Love! Jesus saves! Being part of God's kingdom is not about being perfect. Being part of God's kingdom is about knowing and accepting the standard of what perfection is and saying, "That's what I want" and then letting God do His good work in you to bring it about. Even if we fall during the process of growth it's not a problem because we get back up again because that's what kingdom people do. The key is to understand and accept the Father's standard knowing that someday we will all be like Him. The Father is the standard for what kingdom people should be like. Edited May 8, 2015 by Scuba bonnie, brotherly love and phkrause 3 Quote Sometimes our behavior needs time to catch up to our salvation...
Samie Posted May 8, 2015 Posted May 8, 2015 The kingdom of God is a kingdom. It has a King and a governmental structure consisting of rules by which the citizens of that kingdom live by. It's like that with any kingdom. The kingdom of God is not of this world. That means you will not be able to bring God's kingdom into the secular kingdoms of this world because they will not accept it. People have to be taken out of the secular kingdoms of this world and become citizens of God's kingdom. God's kingdom can't become part of them, they must become part of God kingdom. In other words, becoming part of God's kingdom must be based on His terms, not theirs. In order for that to happen people must know and understand the rules in which they must live by in order to be part of God's kingdom. If they don't agree and accept the rules as their new way of life they cannot be part of God's kingdom. It's that way with any kingdom, God's kingdom is no different. I don't care if they preach Jesus or if they even call Jesus Lord if they don't accept the principles of God's kingdom and agree to live by them they are not part of God's kingdom nor can they be. Sounds to me like salvation by works. Your position requires a man to do something first before he can be written in the roster of citizens of the kingdom. Here's a better and Biblical alternative. Because of Christ's life, death and resurrection, we were born part of the kingdom, with our names in its roster of citizens - the book of life. All that God requires is for us to overcome evil with good. We may be overcome of evil at times but the game is not over yet. There's still hope of overcoming while alive, being attached to Him Who is our Strength to overcome evil with good. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the roster. With our names in the book of life, we are heaven-bound, unless blotted out at death for continually refusing to overcome evil with good while alive. Just like being in a family. We were born members of our family. And because of Christ, we all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - are all members of the family of God, written in the registry of heaven - the book of life - unless our names are blotted out. Looks to me like a better alternative, isn't it, brother? Quote
Scuba Posted May 8, 2015 Author Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Sounds to me like salvation by works. Your position requires a man to do something first before he can be written in the roster of citizens of the kingdom. Here's a better and Biblical alternative. Because of Christ's life, death and resurrection, we were born part of the kingdom, with our names in its roster of citizens - the book of life. All that God requires is for us to overcome evil with good. We may be overcome of evil at times but the game is not over yet. There's still hope of overcoming while alive, being attached to Him Who is our Strength to overcome evil with good. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the roster. With our names in the book of life, we are heaven-bound, unless blotted out at death for continually refusing to overcome evil with good while alive. Just like being in a family. We were born members of our family. And because of Christ, we all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - are all members of the family of God, written in the registry of heaven - the book of life - unless our names are blotted out. Looks to me like a better alternative, isn't it, brother? No it's not a salvation by works, it's living as citizens in God's kingdom because we have been saved. Entering into God's kingdom is when God translates you from one kingdom to another. This, translating from one kingdom to another, has nothing to do with works. Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. Basically we are saying the same thing. Edited May 8, 2015 by Scuba Quote Sometimes our behavior needs time to catch up to our salvation...
8thdaypriest Posted May 8, 2015 Posted May 8, 2015 It seems like most of the threads in this forum right now, are arguing about this SAME QUESTION. Do we begin life "in Christ" ("justified", or "in the Book of LIfe", or "members of the family of God") until we choose to continue in sins and are "cut off" from "the camp" ? Or - do we begin life OUTSIDE of "the camp" (NOT "in Christ"), until we BELIEVE and enter into Covenant, and thus ENTER "the camp" of Israel ? No one is saying that one's name cannot be blotted out of the Book of Life prior to the coming of Christ. No once-saved-always-saved. Are we IN until we CHOOSE to leave? OR Are we OUT until we CHOOSE to enter? WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make - the answer to this question? It seems to all go back to the question, "What will God do with all the children, and those who never heard of Him or of Christ" - whose "sins" are only those of ignorance? Samie and Robert and most SDAs and evangelicals would agree that young children are given an automatic pass to immortal life in the Kingdom of God. Ignorant pagans, as well as ignorant slaves are left "as if they never were". They are not punished with the "lake of fire". (Although Baptists and Catholics DO say that they go to "Hell". ) Rachel says that each human being must CHOOSE whom he/she will serve. Whether they begin life IN, or begin life OUT - they MUST CHOOSE, in order to receive immortality. Those who die before they can understand, and thus choose, must be resurrected to continue their lives until they have CHOSEN. That is why I believe that the "rest of the dead" will be those who have not yet CHOSEN, whom they will serve. To say that infants and children will be given everlasting life - without ever having chosen to serve Christ - is to say that God will choose for them. He must then manipulate their minds (without their consent) in order to ensure their continued harmony with others in His Kingdom. THAT is just like UNIVERSALISM. Whether you save all mankind, or just all children - it's the SAME PRINCIPLE. Manipulation without consent. Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted May 8, 2015 Posted May 8, 2015 Hmmmm .... Wasn't this subject debated ad infinitum a few months back? 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 8, 2015 Posted May 8, 2015 NO DESTINY WITHOUT CHOICE ! I appreciate your conclusion, especially as it applies to free will. OTOH did you make a choice to be created? I like to remember this promise below, especially as it reminds me that God can do so much more for my eternal welfare that I'm still unaware of, as long as I do not deliberately refuse what I understand to be His will for me. 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” Let anyone who hears this say, “Come.” Let anyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life....Revelation 22 20Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]—...Ephesians 3 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Samie Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 No it's not a salvation by works, it's living as citizens in God's kingdom because we have been saved. Entering into God's kingdom is when God translates you from one kingdom to another. This, translating from one kingdom to another, has nothing to do with works. Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. Basically we are saying the same thing. Since you said we were basically saying the same thing, then there's no need to be transferred to His Kingdom, having born IN His Kingdom. Unless we were born outside His Kingdom, then transferring is called for. But it would redound to salvation by works when transferring can only proceed AFTER the one for transfer has complied with the requirement. Quote
Scuba Posted May 9, 2015 Author Posted May 9, 2015 Since you said we were basically saying the same thing, then there's no need to be transferred to His Kingdom, having born IN His Kingdom. Unless we were born outside His Kingdom, then transferring is called for. But it would redound to salvation by works when transferring can only proceed AFTER the one for transfer has complied with the requirement. The Bible uses many different words for someone who is saved. Quote Sometimes our behavior needs time to catch up to our salvation...
8thdaypriest Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Hmmmm .... Wasn't this subject debated ad infinitum a few months back? Yes - Here is a list of threads that began with, or morphed into the topic of - Just WHEN is a human being is justified before God, and his/her name written into the Book of LIfe? I only went back 5 pages, so there are probably several more. Are you in or out? - Started by Scuba, May 6, 2015 Romans 8:1-4 - Started by Robert, Apr. 25, 2015 Three Angels Message & the SDA denomination - Started by Robert, Apr. 12, 2015 Are we born justified? - Started by Robert, 17 Mar., 2015 Why is there "none righteous"? - Started by Robert, 15 March The true gospel must legally fulfill God's law. - Started by Robert, Mar. 7, 2015 Whom did God choose & When were their names written in the Book of Life? - Started by Samie, Aug. 22, 2014 The Bible Says - Started by Samie, Feb. 9, 2014 Two Questions - Started by Samie, Feb. 6, 2014 Though it HAS been "debated ad infinitum", it does not seem that we forum posters have reached any consensus. Maybe I should start ANOTHER thread. What do you think? LOL Edited May 9, 2015 by 8thdaypriest Quote 8thdaypriest
Administrators Gail Posted May 9, 2015 Administrators Posted May 9, 2015 Luke 17:21-Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Scuba and Naomi 2 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
LifeHiscost Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Luke 17:21-Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Samie Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 The Bible uses many different words for someone who is saved. Yes, I agree. But when the act of transferring to God's Kingdom comes AFTER man has first complied with a requirement, then it redounds to salvation by works. And sadly, this is the brand of gospel popularly preached to the world. This is why this layman is trying to point out an alternative based on what Scriptures say, so that we can all join hands in proclaiming the true gospel. This layman believes that Jesus will only come again when the gospel He wanted preached to the world had been proclaimed to all nations. Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) silly me.. and I thought this Thread was talking about belly buttons! But seriously I want to add something to all this. God not only calls us to be Citizens of Heaven. God actually bids us to bring Heaven to everyone you meet or interact with Math 6:10. Let's flesh that out for a moment. When friends,family,co workers,acquaintances,strangers look in your eyes- they will see non condemnation and impartial love. They will see Jesus love for them in all you say and do. Oh GOD what a tall order! How on earth do we do that? When in prayer..in devotions..bible study etc. You yourself find God looking at you as His Beloved Son! You are a child of God ! You see God rejoicing and dancing over you! You see what HE sees! What He says about you! He loves all of the you. Your good days and bad days are HIS! So many scriptures apply to you! All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.[b] 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding. ... and walking in that reality -it will spill unto everyone you come across! This is a good way to tell if indeed who is of the Kingdom of GOD! God Help Us All walk in HIS REALITY OF His heart toward us! ..if we fail or fall short in any of this .. God still loves on us and forgives and leads to grow even more with HIM and HIS BODY! Edited May 12, 2015 by GayatfootofCross JoeMo 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 JoeMo 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Aliensanctuary Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Since everyone who ever lived, except for the 144K, is resurrected at the end of the 1K years for a relatively short period of time, we might see that it is during this time that the Kingdom of YHVH is fully explained to everyone in this surging ocean of humanity by the "3 Angels" and the "2 Witnesses". Now everyone will have a fair chance at understanding the Kingdom and be able to make an informed choice as to which Kingdom they will declare their allegiance: the Kingdom of Light or the Kingdom of Darkness. JoeMo 1 Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451
JoeMo Posted May 12, 2015 Posted May 12, 2015 Since everyone who ever lived, except for the 144K, is resurrected at the end of the 1K years for a relatively short period of time, we might see that it is during this time that the Kingdom of YHVH is fully explained to everyone in this surging ocean of humanity by the "3 Angels" and the "2 Witnesses". Now everyone will have a fair chance at understanding the Kingdom and be able to make an informed choice as to which Kingdom they will declare their allegiance: the Kingdom of Light or the Kingdom of Darkness. I don't know the exact scenario, I do agree that somehow everyone who ever lived will have an opportunity to make an intelligent choice for or against the Kingdom. The end of the 1K makes the most sense to me. There is a great set of studies on this at www.prophecyviewpoint.com. It's called "The 8th Day". One of our very own here at CA is the writer of these studies. (Maybe you can guess who it is!). Quote
Scuba Posted May 13, 2015 Author Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Here is what entering the kingdom and living in the kingdom is like. Are you in or out? Then Matthew 13:36-50 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it. “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Edited May 13, 2015 by Scuba Quote Sometimes our behavior needs time to catch up to our salvation...
GayatfootofCross Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) But seriously I want to add something to all this. God not only calls us to be Citizens of Heaven. God actually bids us to bring Heaven to everyone you meet or interact with Math 6:10. Let's flesh that out for a moment. When friends,family,co workers,acquaintances,strangers look in your eyes- they will see non condemnation and impartial love. They will see Jesus love for them in all you say and do. Oh GOD what a tall order! How on earth do we do that? When in prayer..in devotions..bible study etc. You yourself find God looking at you as His Beloved Son! You are a child of God ! You see God rejoicing and dancing over you! You see what HE sees! What He says about you! He loves all of the you. Your good days and bad days are HIS! So many scriptures apply to you! All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.[b] 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding. ... and walking in that reality -it will spill unto everyone you come across! This is a good way to tell if indeed who is of the Kingdom of GOD! God Help Us All walk in HIS REALITY OF His heart toward us! ..if we fail or fall short in any of this .. God still loves on us and forgives and leads to grow even more with HIM and HIS BODY! 'crickets' I understand that many mindsets of SDA's is all about overcoming and perfection. In my post i addressed something I don't see much of. How we relate to one another as Kingdom People. The heart of the last 6 commandments and Jesus summed up in the Second Great Commandment. are you in or out? the silence screams? GBU ALL Edited May 13, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) what do people here do with people who are honest and say out? still look upon them as unsurpassable worth? I understand the need and desire and the unction to measure oneself but the need to measure others is not a good place to be in one's walk. .. if that is the case Edited May 13, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
brotherly love Posted May 14, 2015 Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) It seems like most of the threads in this forum right now, are arguing about this SAME QUESTION. Do we begin life "in Christ" ("justified", or "in the Book of LIfe", or "members of the family of God") until we choose to continue in sins and are "cut off" from "the camp" ? Or - do we begin life OUTSIDE of "the camp" (NOT "in Christ"), until we BELIEVE and enter into Covenant, and thus ENTER "the camp" of Israel ? No one is saying that one's name cannot be blotted out of the Book of Life prior to the coming of Christ. No once-saved-always-saved. Are we IN until we CHOOSE to leave? OR Are we OUT until we CHOOSE to enter? WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make - the answer to this question? It seems to all go back to the question, "What will God do with all the children, and those who never heard of Him or of Christ" - whose "sins" are only those of ignorance? Samie and Robert and most SDAs and evangelicals would agree that young children are given an automatic pass to immortal life in the Kingdom of God. Ignorant pagans, as well as ignorant slaves are left "as if they never were". They are not punished with the "lake of fire". (Although Baptists and Catholics DO say that they go to "Hell". ) Rachel says that each human being must CHOOSE whom he/she will serve. Whether they begin life IN, or begin life OUT - they MUST CHOOSE, in order to receive immortality. Those who die before they can understand, and thus choose, must be resurrected to continue their lives until they have CHOSEN. That is why I believe that the "rest of the dead" will be those who have not yet CHOSEN, whom they will serve. To say that infants and children will be given everlasting life - without ever having chosen to serve Christ - is to say that God will choose for them. He must then manipulate their minds (without their consent) in order to ensure their continued harmony with others in His Kingdom. THAT is just like UNIVERSALISM. Whether you save all mankind, or just all children - it's the SAME PRINCIPLE. Manipulation without consent. Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com There are a few problems here that i hope you will think about and study. Lets take a look at Catholic dogma. Some say this is a church full of mystery religions and Babylon-this is a view that is simplistic and irrational. Lets take a more specific look at purgatory and baptismal regeneration in relation to the subject. These are the results of the same questions asked on this site and your post. An apolegetic became accepted, and then became dogma over a long time. Purgatory and baptismal regeneration both answer the questions of where do babies go, where do the mentally handicapped go, and where do the people who have never heard of the gospel go-or where do those who have unconfessed sin go-like suicide Correct me if I am wrong, but i will assume that your answer to these same questions would be a resurrection in a semi golden era of the 1000 years? if i am right, it is also an attempt to answer the same questions that purgatory tried to answer. Both purgatory and a semi golden age are hard to obtain from scripture, it is like building an assumption upon an assumption. I will quote you once again "Those who die before they can understand, and thus choose, must be resurrected to continue their lives until they have CHOSEN" The base problem I see here is that a person has to understand in order to be saved, but Jesus told Nicodemus that it was not peoples understanding that condemned them, it was loving the darkness and hating the light. Paul also tackles this topic by explaining that some Gentiles although had no knowledge of the God ofIsrael, they were a law unto themselves. Noah was a prophet, and was called not to bring the Ninevites into Israel, but because they were drawn to the darkness. The knowledge of God was hidden from the majority of the world for eons, but the light was available to all at every moment of time. What do you tell a Japanese person if they ask you about their ancestors who never given the knowledge of God the of Israel-do we respond with purgatory or a resurrection in a semi golden age? The occums razor of the bible is that they had could accept the light, or embrace darkness. As for babies, the bible does give understanding about this-all babies are born into sin, but they are not able to choose sin. when the Israelites embraced darkness, they were not allowed to enter the Land-but the children at that time were not held accountable. Deuteronomy 1:39, “And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.” When the prophetess and Isiah bore a son as a sign to the king that God wold deliver them from their enemies by the time the boy was able to choose good or evil Isaiah 7:14-16: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.” If babies are not able to choose good or evil, when they die they are unaccountable, but will be raised up imperishable, and incorruptible. To raise them up so they could be corrupted has some real problems. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. This is not universalism either, each that has the ability to choose will choose, but the nature of God is that He wants relationship with His Creation, and does not resort to technicalities to hinder this from happenning . Edited May 14, 2015 by brotherly love Quote
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