Women in Ministry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Quote:There are more men than women examples in the Bible of people being demon possessed. Maybe that shows they are less likely to be deceived and better candidates for leadership.

Because there are more men spoken of in the Bible, might that have something to do with it? Look at the geneaology for instance, women are rarely mentioned.

Also, the devil knows who to attack; men in whom God could do a great work through.

[Gregory Matthews]

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Do you know if, during Ellen White's time, credentials of an ordained minister were ever issued to any other woman by the SDA church?

Not really important, as I see it.

It was done once. That establishes something.

[Woody]

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Because there are more men spoken of in the Bible, might that have something to do with it? Look at the geneaology for instance, women are rarely mentioned.

Also, the devil knows who to attack; men in whom God could do a great work through.

Norman ... I think it would be good to concede while you can without digging your grave deeper with statements like this sexist remark.

Insinuating that God can't work through women is not sustainable. It will not win you much support. For it is unBiblical.

[carolaa]

the devil knows who to attack; men in whom God could do a great work through.

Are you using the term "men" in reference to all mankind, or just to men?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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I hate to shop, and I know other women who hate to shop. I also know men who love to shop. Let's not make stereotypes the basis for doctrine.

I guess you didn't see the smiley face, that was supposed to be a joke.

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Regarding your first two myths, those are addressing the issue of marriage, nothing else.

Not so, that's your opinion. You are lacking facts that I won't even bother to mention because it will do no good.

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Adam committed the worse sin by going into it with his eyes wide open.

That is how you see it but here's how Paul sees it For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Also, Adam knew what he was doing as you say but it was not because he wanted to wilfully disobey God and that made him a more wicked sinner, he did this because he LOVED HIS WIFE WITH ALL HIS HEART. God understood this and this did not change his ability to see right from wrong infact in enhanced it.

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I don't understand your comment about ordained women being deceived by evil men and bringing shame to the church.

be opened and watch what will begin to happen soon. Youwill be brought back to this discussion and then understand.

Norman

[Dr. Shane]

I think this is a conversation that we need to continue having. I haven't read much of anything new in this thread. I personally support the ordination of women as pastors but I also think we have too many pastors in North America and it has resulted in many of the laity getting lazy. I think a district should have 5 to 8 churches and be assigned both a pastor and counselor. Of course, Christ will come before that ever happens. But I think our churches would become much healthier and sustain growth.

Since we are part of a world church and it is a "WE" organization and not a "ME" organization, I believe we should follow the world church's will while trying to persuade them otherwise.

[John317]

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Do you know if, during Ellen White's time, credentials of an ordained minister were ever issued to any other woman by the SDA church?

Not really important, as I see it.

It was done once. That establishes something.

Yet would you be willing to concede that it may not be just coincidental that the one and only credential of an ordained minister ever issued to a woman by the SDA church (during the time Ellen White was alive) was to an individual the church believed to be a prophet of God?

I haven't totally made up my mind on the issue of making woman pastors of churches but I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to what seems to me to be clear Biblical directions on it in the Pauline Epistles. My concern is that if we say Paul was simply giving his culturally conditioned opinion about women, we could also say the same thing about homosexuality as well as some other things. In fact, as you know, that is the very argument that is already being made in many churches, including our own.

[Woody]

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I haven't totally made up my mind on the issue of making woman pastors of churches

Interesting. But the church that you are a member of HAS decided this. AND ....

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"But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." {9T 260.1} and the Church Manual

You said ....

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Yet would you be willing to concede that it may not be just coincidental that the one and only credential of an ordained minister ever issued to a woman by the SDA church (during the time Ellen White was alive) was to an individual the church believed to be a prophet of God?

Just a couple of thoughts on this .... One being that there was NOT only ONE credential given to EGW. She was given multiple credentials by different conferences and the General Conference.

Two ... if it was not right for a woman to be ordained and carry such credentials then surely EGW would have clarified her actions.Three ... she never claimed to be a prophet so this point of it being OK only for a prophet does not carry weight.

[John317]

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Yet would you be willing to concede that it may not be just coincidental that the one and only credential of an ordained minister ever issued to a woman by the SDA church (during the time Ellen White was alive) was to an individual the church believed to be a prophet of God?

Just a couple of thoughts on this .... One being that there was NOT only ONE credential given to EGW. She was given multiple credentials by different conferences and the General Conference.

Yes, I know. It was given both times to the same person, who happened to be an individual the church believes is a prophet of God.

That was the exception. It's obvious that the reason they made an exception was due to her prophetic office. What other explanation is there? Ellen White traveled the world and spoke for the church and to the church. They believed it was appropriate to give some sort of official recognition that she had authority to speak on behalf of the church. The church had no credential for "prophet" or "Lord's messenger," so it makes good sense that they would provide her with the credential that was available.

[Taylor]

It might also be considered, that in her day there were such few females involved in anything except nursing, secretarial, or teaching that they felt they needed to officially recognize her in her role since she was preaching so much. She wasn't given creditentials as a prophet but credentials like that of a pastor, she just happened to be female. (In those days there were no female chancelors of schools, presidents of countries, and very very few female doctors. So to add legitimacy to her calling they gave her credentials so she would be recognized as it being as much acceptable for her to be in a pulpit as a male. )

I think a calling to ministry has MUCH more to do with attitude and dedication to God than it does gender. I know pastors of both genders that are incredible and pastors of both genders that probably shouldn't be in the ministry. The heart is what God is after, not the gender or the title. We are all called to minister, to preach the gospel, to tell anyone and everyone what God has done for us. We might get paid for it or we might not, but our mission is the same.

[Woody]

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I think a calling to ministry has MUCH more to do with attitude and dedication to God than it does gender. I know pastors of both genders that are incredible and pastors of both genders that probably shouldn't be in the ministry. The heart is what God is after, not the gender or the title. We are all called to minister, to preach the gospel, to tell anyone and everyone what God has done for us. We might get paid for it or we might not, but our mission is the same.

Go for it. Preach. Honestly ... I would be willing to be in the same sanctuary with you if you preached. I don't think it matters if you were a man or a woman. I would listen.

The qualifications for preaching should be ability, dedication and Spirit. It should Not be Gender.

And YES. HE has "called" all of us to be Pastors/Ministers. We are all a part of the Priesthood.

But we can not attack culture. Ellen White saw this wisdom. Like you said ...

"In those days there were no female chancelors of schools, presidents of countries, and very very few female doctors. "

With that background ... I think it was wise of the church and Ellen White to go slowly with the official professional advancement of women. We do have to be sensitive to culture as Jesus was. But we should not be stuck in the old cultural ways and not advance in a positive way.

Anyway ... Thank you for your insightful post.

[John317]

Thanks for your post. You've made some excellent points, I think. I completely agree that all Christians are called by God to minister and tell everyone what God has done for us.

I also agree that Ellen White was not given a credential as a prophet. A prophet really needs no license or credential because a prophet is appointed or ordained by God alone and therefore their authority is not derived by a vote or credential. But as you mention, Ellen White traveled to many churches and spoke for the church, and so it was felt that she needed some kind of permission by the church leadership. The best way to do that was by issuing her a credential.

Do you know if the SDA church in General Conference has voted in favor of making women pastors of churches throughout the world conferences?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

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Do you know if the SDA church in General Conference has voted in favor of making women pastors of churches throughout the world conferences?

This is a good question. My "impression" of what was voted on was that they gave permission for the world church to decide on a conference by conference basis. Thereby saying that it was Ok, blessed it but also recognizing that some cultures were not ready for it. I could be wrong.

They also voted clearly on the issue of world wide acceptance of women in "leadership over men" by voting for a Women Vice President to the World-Wide Church of Seventh day Adventists.

I think we can put to rest the issue of "leadership of women over men" . That issue was clearly decided on. It can no longer be an issue against women.

[Taylor]

I am not sure if the decision is conference by conference or Union by Union or Division by Division but yes that is how I understand it as well.

[John317]

I'm concerned with the Bible and Ellen White viewpoints on women's ordination.

The following is an attempt to understand what the Bible teaches in regard to this issue: http://drpipim.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=46

A different viewpoint, that of a woman's organization in favor of ordination of women:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Thanks for the correction Taylor. I don't actually know either. It was just my impression that it was conference. I see the church in an effort to move more control locally. I think it is a good move.

[Woody]

I'm concerned with the Bible and Ellen White viewpoints on women's ordination.

The following is an attempt to understand what the Bible teaches in regard to this issue: http://drpipim.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=46

A different viewpoint, that of a woman's organization in favor of ordination of women:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/wo/index.htm

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

I am not going to bother clicking on any work of Pipim. I personally own a number of his books. I have seen enough.

[Woody]

NAD figures ....

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. Of the 4,600 churches in the NAD, only 100 of them have women pastors. Of the 10,000 local elders in the division, 1,500-2,000 are women.

So, there is STILL much work to be done to improve matters.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Norman ... I think it would be good to concede while you can without digging your grave deeper with statements like this sexist remark.

Insinuating that God can't work through women is not sustainable. It will not win you much support. For it is unBiblical.

Redwood, please go back and read what I wrote I never said anything of what you are trying to attribute to me. Also to you it may appear sexist, but it is the truth. I'm not pointing to women and saying "Yucky stinky girls you can't play with us boys," I've grown up and am posting what I read from scripture. This is not a game for me to get one up on anyone nor to make anyone look bad or unqualified.

I will simply tell you what I have said to spare you the reading: There is no scriptural support for the ordination of women as pastors. It's just not there. I am not saying nor have I ever said that women can't do anything because they are women.

I can't say for sure since I haven't read this but EGW never asked to be ordained. I have read where she counseled against it because of how it wouldmake us look. She based that on the fact that we are perceived as a strange people to start with lets not give them more to consider us strange. Those are my words but that is what she was conveying. Since she said that and I have rad that I find it hard to believe that she would ask to be ordained.

The women today are a far cry from what she was and the men are a far cry from what James White was too. The land is filled with weakness and selfpity; blind, stupid fools are the majority of the people in North America and sad to say our church is not far behind.

What is needed are men who are true to God, who will not compromise with evil, who are sold on principle and who love God and their neighbor as themselves. But men have been a shameful display of ungodliness and have not been the leaders they/we have been called to be. God help us.

[olger]

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I've grown up and am posting what I read from scripture. This is not a game for me to get one up on anyone nor to make anyone look bad or unqualified.

That was well put, Norman.

oG

[John317]

I am not sure if the decision is conference by conference or Union by Union or Division by Division but yes that is how I understand it as well.

I believe that the church in General Conference voted overwhelmingly against women's ordination, but a few individual conferences, such as Southeastern California conference, voted to go ahead with it anyway. That is my understanding of what has happened. I'm going to do more study both on the issue itself Scripturally and on what happened at the conference level.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

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John 3: 17---I haven't totally made up my mind on the issue of making woman pastors of churches

Isn't it true that the last time the world church in General Conference voted on the issue of women's ordination, it voted overwhelmingly against it?

It seems to me then that the ones who are going against the decision of the general body are the individual conferences, who are refusing to abide by the position of the General Conference.

If I am wrong in this, perhaps you could point me to a link that has the official statement of the GC on this, if one exists.

What do you understand happened?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Denise]

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What is needed are men who are true to God, who will not compromise with evil, who are sold on principle and who love God and their neighbor as themselves. But men have been a shameful display of ungodliness and have not been the leaders they/we have been called to be. God help us.

Amen on that! I agree on that!

[John317]

This is true and a very relevant point. She was never ordained and never asked to be ordained.

[Tom Wetmore]

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"Resolved, that the highest authority under God among Seventh day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference when acting within its proper jurisdiction; and that such decisions should be submitted to by all without exception." RH. vol 50 No.14, p.106

If they go against Scripture they are out of their jurisdiction. Their jurisdiction comes from the Bible and there is no presidence for this, period.

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They authorized a woman as Vice President ... what more proof do you need. If she is not in leadership over men ... then just who is in leadership?

Error does not make truth. Remeber this? "Though hand join in hand the wicked shall not be unpunished" Ps 11:21...

Interesting that those very points against clear actions by the General Conference in Session are very much forgotten, turning silently to dust in your mouth when it is an action to the opposite effect as happened 1990 and 1995. Suddenly, in reference to those actions those in your corner chastise those supporting women in ministry by local ordination are "rebelling" "going against the authority of the Church" and even acting "against the clearly expressed will of God."

Originally Posted By: Norman

Stick to your Bibles folks, there can nothing good comes from listening to the doctrines of men that are unsupported in the Bible.

And Norman, that is precisely what has lead me to reach the exact opposite conclusion from what you are so vigorously advocating. Some of the most careful and conservative Biblical scholars have indeed reached the conclusion that women in pastoral ministry is indeed well supported Scripturally.

Tom