Black Holocaust

[Dr. Shane]

Just for the record, I have stated this before, I am in favor of allowing women the right to abortion in cases of known birth defects, medical reasons (cancer treatment, etc.), rape, incest and to save the mother's life. That is not to say I agree with it but think women should be able to choose for themselves in such circumstances.

Still the issue in this post is how the abortion industry targets minorities for abortions. Shouldn't this outrage those minority groups?

[there buster]

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You are STILL ignoring the two-headed baby. Why? Because it violates your cute 'never abort' stupidity.

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Hard questions make bad laws.

[bevin]

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Still the issue in this post is how the abortion industry targets minorities for abortions.

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No it isn't. The issue in this thread is your initial accusation that millions of women have murdered their babies since 1973, and that the reason is a Holocaust-like attack on Blacks.

I did not point to the two-headed baby as a "should have aborted" instance. I pointed to it as a "here is another case where parents and doctors have deliberately chosen to kill a human being" and to show the difficulty in deciding when an entity is alive enough to conclude that killing it is murder.

Hard examples show the need to for laws that understand that we live in a complex world.

Neither a 12 week old fetus nor a perfectly formed 9 month old head without a body are sufficiently formed to warrant the full protection of "thou shalt not commit murder".

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

We disagree, Brother Bevin. The perectly formed 9 month old head will never form a body - big difference. Doctors in that situation are faced with a difficult decision. Neither is good so they choose the best of the two evils.

A pregnant woman's situation is not comparable. Pregnancy is not terminal. Given nine months the body will get rid of the fetus all on its own. Ever see a woman try to stop labor? Doesn't work too well. Given time that baby will come out in the vast majority of cases. Once out the woman can give it up for adoption. In states like Minnesota, a new mother can drop her child off at a hosptial - no questions asked. Or leave it there if she gave birth there. That is God's design. Baby is concieved - baby is born. Sorry, we don't get to play God. To do so is murder.

Now why do you think an organization like Planned Parenthood, which leads the big abortion industry, targets black women and black babies?

[bevin]

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The perectly formed 9 month old head will never form a body - big difference.

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What is the difference? You think people have to have a body to be alive? Is it okay to abort a fetus just because it has malformed limbs? It is okay to kill a thalidomide baby just because it is born without arms and legs?

Suddenly you are ok with taking beings life, just because it doesn't look like you...

/Bevin

[Bravus]

I've said before that I believe every abortion is tragic and that we should all be doing evry single thing we can to reduce the rate of abortions. (Interestingly, I've been seeing ads on Salon.com calling for cooperation on this issue lately.)

But I think there's one false connection in your premise for the thread, Shane. The correlation is actually not between race and abortion, it's between poverty and abortion. It's just an abiding shame of America that race and poverty are also correlated. I'd be very surprised indeed if the stats for black, brown and white women of the same socioeconomic status aren't very similar indeed.

(Not to get off into another issue, but this is like the administration's argument that black men are penalised by Social Security because they die younger. Shouldn't policies be aiming to *fix that*, particularly in the next 20-30 years which is the time scale for the Social Security changes.)

So I share your concern and accept your observations about who gets abortions, Shane, but I wanted to bring in a strong alternative hypothesis about *why*.

[Dr. Shane]

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The correlation is actually not between race and abortion, it's between poverty and abortion.

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Wrong, wrong, wrong. More poor white people in America than black people. Try again.

[Dr. Shane]

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What is the difference? You think people have to have a body to be alive?

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Your example of a malformed baby is different because the baby isn't normal so the doctors have to make a hard choice.

A 4 week old embreyo is normal. No hard choice needs to be made. Unless it is not normal (product of rape, incest, or has known birth defect)

[Bravus]

I'm afraid I need a little more evidence than finger-wagging and an assertion. There may be more poor whites than poor blacks as a total number, but as a proportion of the total numbers of each race, what proportion are poor? And what are the stats for abortion among poor whites?

[Dr. Shane]

Brother Bravus, you are right that the portions are not the same. For example 60% of blacks may be in poverty and only 14% of whites. Yet the 14% in actual numbers is larger than the 60%.

I don't know how abortion breaks down as race. It should be whites, hispanic, blacks, asians, native americans in that order if it is a cross section of the general population. However we have seen that blacks have more than their share. You think that has to do with them being poor? What about the fact that over 70% if black babies are born out of wedlock? Do these two statistics have nothing to do with each other?

From a strictly business perspective. If I were an abortion provider and knew of a segment of the population whose unwed babies were over 70%, I would market my services to that population. I think the high abortion rate has a lot to do with the high number of unwed black females getting pregnant and Planned Parenthood knowing how to market and run their abortion business.

[bevin]

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Your example of a malformed baby is different because the baby isn't normal so the doctors have to make a hard choice.

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What, precisely, is the hard choice?

The second head was healthy, smiling, active... exactly as is any thalodomide baby.

/Bevin

[Amelia]

All Planned Parenthood offices give condoms away free. As do other places like free clinics. Free birth control is out there for everyone to use including the poor. The problem is that abortion is being used as birth control by the lazy, the stubborn and the controlled whether they be poor or minority. I worked in a SDA low/no cost clinic and heard it all the time. No, he wont use condoms. He doesnt like them. She doesnt say a word and suffers with another pregnancy or abortion or STD.

PS, SDA low/no cost clinics do not give out condoms nor sell them. They do however give advice on where to obtain them.

[fifiqueen]

Shane if you want to really talk about a black holocaust lets talk about slavery and the way that black people were killed, mutilated and tourtured for decades. Lets also talk about a society which still considers them as second class citizens where the media focuses on constantly placing negative images about them in order to justify there treatment.

It never ceases to amaze me how you constantly bring out negative figures and so called facts about the black race. It seems that you also forget, when doing this, to place any negative focus on the the sins of the majority of the population. I am not accusing you of racism, what I am saying is that your consistent highlighting of all things negative about black people negates every thing that is positive. The media does a fine job of doing this and require no help from you.

I challenge you to find positive media and postit. So that you can help each some of the racial tension in the world by helping to iradicate ignorance with positive knowledge.

As for your commit that those who abort in the back alleys get all they they deserve appaulls me. Why? Because no one set you as judge and jury over others and people need compassion as there is so little of it left in this world. We have argued over the abortion issue before, you bring it up almost quarterly. I am not for abortion, but I do understand that there are circumstances that overwhelm a person into making certain choices. When talking about poverty, another mouth to feed can often compound and already disasterous situation.

[fifiqueen]

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But I think there's one false connection in your premise for the thread, Shane. The correlation is actually not between race and abortion, it's between poverty and abortion. It's just an abiding shame of America that race and poverty are also correlated. I'd be very surprised indeed if the stats for black, brown and white women of the same socioeconomic status aren't very similar indeed.

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Bravus, this exactly is the issue, poverty and lack of education is a major issue. Support is also an issue. Although there may be many support organisations out there a major problem is that family support is missing, positive role models are missing. The family has been under attack since its formation in Genesis, people are disenfranchised.

[fifiqueen]

Amelia,

I agree with what you say to an extent, I think that society has a great part in this crisis to play. We are bombared with sexual images from childhood, everything is sold with sex these days (Well it is in the UK) So much emphasis is placed on being with someone that something has become batter than nothing at any cost.

There are many issues around this topic, it shows the demise of our society and morallity.

[Neil D]

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I've said before that I believe every abortion is tragic and that we should all be doing evry single thing we can to reduce the rate of abortions. (Interestingly, I've been seeing ads on Salon.com calling for cooperation on this issue lately.)

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It is also interesting to note, that every president who opposes abortion, and enacts laws and policys to reduce abortion practice, finds that they infact, increase the abortion rate. During Clinton reign, the abortion rate went down for the first time in over 16 years of previous republican rule. Either, the Clinton process did it right, or this is fluke/aboration of stats. Curiously, there are stats that show that abortion rates are on the rise again during Bush's reign...which goes to show, the dems have the process right...

Fact: women will always seek abortion if they feel they need one.

proposal: Let's reduce the number of abortions but let's keep it safe and legal as well. Let's not abandon new moms, let's support our children/mothers with policys that make alternatives to abortion more viable.

This is a practical progressive democratic proposal that works.

[David_McQueen]

Some interesting comments made on this thread. It is so easy to try and give reasons for why people have abortions, and in many ways without a complete survey a lot of will be hearsay. We have a sharp increase in the number of abortions in the UK among the black community as well, but according to such statistics it is mostly by working women. So what then?

Each situation has to be taken on merit. Yeah some of it may be down to laziness, some irresponsibility, some fear, but drawing conclusions without actually talking to people is ignorance. For those who I know who have had an abortion the number of reasons vary immensely. It can be too easy to make a judgement on others readless of backgounrd, race, etc.

Personally I think these kind of reports offer no solutions, neither do they attempt to ask why this is happening, that being the case it is nothing more than a diatribe.

One of the things I love about true Christianity is that not only does it raise and issue, but also looks for a solution, well at least Jesus did anyway.

[Dr. Shane]

Sister Fifqueen, I cannot address racial issues in the UK as I have never lived or visited there. So my comments pertain only to the US.

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lets talk about slavery and the way that black people were killed

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Slavery was terrible and had I lived during that time I would have been as much of an abolitionist as I am pro-life today. Yet it is niave to place all the blame on the white slave owners. The black slaves sold into slavey were sold by blacks in Africa where slavery still exists today. While the vast majority of slaves were black, it was not limited to only blacks. There were white slaves too.

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Lets also talk about a society which still considers them as second class citizens

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That may be true in the UK. It is not true in the US.

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It never ceases to amaze me how you constantly bring out negative figures and so called facts about the black race.

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This thread is not negetive about blacks. For some reason you read it that way. This thread is negetive about abortion providers which seem to be targetting blacks.

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I challenge you to find positive media and post it.

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I have posted stories written by Walter Williams, who I admire greatly and is a black professor and columnist. I have also taken my hat off to Bill Cosby in Townhall.

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As for your commit that those who abort in the back alleys get all they they deserve appaulls me.

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I did not say that. Brother Neil did. I said they get what we all deserve. That includes me and even the pope.

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We have argued over the abortion issue before, you bring it up almost quarterly.

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It comes up often in the news, Sister. And we discuss the news in this forum. You have already admitted the news tends to focus on the black population a lot. Well, that is why you see threads here. We discuss what is in the news.

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When talking about poverty, another mouth to feed can often compound and already disasterous situation.

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Again, I can't address the issues in the UK. In the US no pregnant woman has to keep her baby. In fact, unwed mothers that give their children up for adoption are considered heros for 1. not aborting and 2. giving the child a two parent home. So there isn't even any social preasure placed on an unwed pregnant woman to keep the child.

Thank you for you imput on this important issue.

[Dr. Shane]

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It is also interesting to note, that every president who opposes abortion, and enacts laws and policys to reduce abortion practice, finds that they infact, increase the abortion rate.

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That means nothing. It is like saying the more churches in a community the more crime it has. True, but meaningless. It is something a man empty of meaningful arguments puts forth.

It all comes down to the value of life. How much do you value life? That is what the entire abortion debate is about. Some value life more after 12 weeks. Some value it more once it can live outside the womb. Some value it more when it can suck a nipple. Some value life upon its conception. The Bible leads us to believe God values life before it even begins.

[Amelia]

Yes fifi luv, you are correct. I am amazed by how much 5yr olds know about sex. Stuff they really have no business having an inkling about.

[Amelia]

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That may be true in the UK. It is not true in the US.

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All I can say is, what fantasy world do you live in Shane?

[Dr. Shane]

I live in the United States of America. I don't know where you live. I was born in Iowa raised in Nebreska, Wisconsin, Utah, Colorado, Texas, Washington and Minnesota. I joined and served five years in the Army where I was sent to New Jersy, Missouri, North Carolina and Panama. Studied and graduated from Minnesota State Univeristy, Mankato. That is the world I live in and it is more than just a fantasy.

Now let's address the issue of blacks being second-class citizens in the United States of America. Since the 1970s there has been a policy in place in the United States of America called Affirmative Action. This policy allows minority students, like blacks, to get into colleges and graduate programs with lower test scores than their white peers. Does that make them second-class citizens? Affirmative Action also gives race-based preferences to blacks and other minorities in being hired by corporations. Many times more qualified white applicants are passed over to give a job to a black person. Does that make them a second-class citizens? Affirmative Action also requires a specified percentage of government contracts and subcontracts to be awarded to minority contractors. Often times in the construction industry a contractor is awarded a contract due to their minority status and not any other reason. Does that make them second-class citizens?

Furethermore blacks and other minority students have a world of scholorships available to them that their poverty striken white peers do not have. Does that make them second-class citizens? Such groups like the United Negro College Scholorship fund and the Hispanic Scholorship Fund provide minorities with funds not availble to white students raised on welfare and food stamps. Does that make them second-class citizens.

You see I was born on the wrong side of the tracks. My parents were both alcoholics and divorced when I was quite young. I couldn't even get my driver's lisense until I was 18 because I couldn't afford to go to driver's education. I started working after school at age of 16 and had to give a portion of my earings to my mother. I had no one to help me with homework when I got home. I had no one to help me get into college. And my skin was the wrong color. I was born poor white trash - the forgotten unfortunates. If there are any second-class citizens in the United States of America it is the poor white kids in single-parent homes.

[Neil D]

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That may be true in the UK. It is not true in the US.

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All I can say is, what fantasy world do you live in Shane?

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You know, tomorrow night, Randy Maxwell should be on...or is it Saturday night...

Well, Shane can ask Randy if he thinks that there is any racial problems here in the Adventist Church, or the US.....

Let Shane get a perspecive from a true black brother in Christ....

[Dr. Shane]

I am interacially married. Make no mistake about it. I know about the racial issues in America. That wasn't the point of discussion. The point of discussion was if blacks were second-class citizens. In order to be second-class citizens they need to be denied rights afforded to first-class citizens. Not only are they not denied rights, they are granted extrodinary favors not available to ordinary citizens.

I know there are racists in the church. There are some here in Club Adventist and I have pointed them out in some of my posts.

The fact you think Randy is some kind of authority on race relations just because of the color of his skin would be thought by some as being racist. Most look at him and see a brother in Christ with wisdom and experience to share. Others see a black man who can answers race-based questions.

BTW, a true black brother in Christ was my best friend while I was in college and was my best man at my wedding. What color was the best man at your wedding, Brother Neil? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

[]http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbthreads/attachments/157629-shane_owen.jpg[/]

[Amelia]

Shane, you can state goverment laws and action plans all you want. That doesnt make one person treat another person the way they should. Thats what we are talking about. Treating someone, anyone, like dirt under your feet is making them second class. There are plenty of dirty feet out there.