The Auto Industry...

[Robert]

Quote:

And the Capitalists here take advantage of this. It is called exploitation.

No its called supply and demand.

No it's called exploitation. It's unfair trade....The only way to compete with such countries is to become a 3rd world country yourself. It's not a level playing field at all unless governments abide by the same rules.

Here in the US we have labor rights. We have minimum wages. We have anti-discrimination laws, etc. Other governments could care less about their people, and so the greedy among us exploit the situation.

[Robert]

its called supply and demand

James 5:1 And a final word to you arrogant rich: Take some lessons in lament. You'll need buckets for the tears when the crash comes upon you. 2 Your money is corrupt and your fine clothes stink. 3 Your greedy luxuries are a cancer in your gut, destroying your life from within. You thought you were piling up wealth. What you've piled up is judgment. 4 All the workers you've exploited and cheated cry out for judgment. The groans of the workers you used and abused are a roar in the ears of the Master Avenger.

[Robert]

its called supply and demand.

Tell that to the African slaves who were brought here to American so that the rich Plantation owners could pursue better profits. They had cotton to sell instead of paying the locals they sought out cheap labor. But that's okay, it's about supply and demand, right?

Now since CNN is just down the road it is not so easy to enslave folks. So the greedy among us have learned how to make economic slaves of folks in other lands. And you thought that the world was becoming a better place....

[Sulla]

Quote:

No it's called exploitation. It's unfair trade....The only way to compete with such countries is to become a 3rd world country yourself. It's not a level playing field at all unless governments abide by the same rules.

Here in the US we have labor rights. We have minimum wages. We have anti-discrimination laws, etc. Other governments could care less about their people, and so the greedy among us exploit the situation.

I would suggest looking at history. Countries tend to start out with cheap labor but then progress. For example Japan, China, South Korea, etc etc. All of these countries have had a huge increase in the standard of living starting from that. The difference is they are all run MUCH better than Mexico ever has been. So the problem is not evil us capatilists is bad Mexican goverment and a culture that takes for granted corruption.

Quote:

Tell that to the African slaves who were brought here to American so that the rich Plantation owners could pursue better profits. They had cotton to sell instead of paying the locals they sought out cheap labor. But that's okay, it's about supply and demand, right?

Now I have no idea what you mean. This has nothing to do with capatilism. Slavery can be used in any system. The communists in russia used people they did not like as slaves. Mao used people he did not like as slaves. Pol Pot used people he did not like as slaves. African tribes used each other as slaves. Muslims used slaves and lots of other cultures in history. Today there are are estimated several million people in slavery world wide. Slavery is no more capatalist that any other crime.

Quote:

Now since CNN is just down the road it is not so easy to enslave folks. So the greedy among us have learned how to make economic slaves of folks in other lands. And you thought that the world was becoming a better place.... saywa

What nonsense. Moving factories to these places have helped them. Thats why china has the fastest growth rates in the world. Why the largest numbers of chines in history have been pulled out of poverty. And why the communists in china turned their back on communist economic ideas.

[Robert]

I would suggest looking at history. Countries tend to start out with cheap labor but then progress.

[Robert]

Countries tend to start out with cheap labor but then progress. For example Japan, China, South Korea, etc etc. All of these countries have had a huge increase in the standard of living starting from that.

First of all let me make some corrections....Japan, South Korea were never 3rd world countries. China and Mexico are....Yes, the elite in China are doing well, but the average Chinese is just barely able to have a roof over his head and food on his plate. And because there are so many of them you will always have a cheap source of labor. Besides, the Communists allow very, very limited unionism. If these Chinese leaders cared they wouldn't allow their people to be run over by folks from abroad (mainly US Capitalist). Also, if America were truly a Christian nation we wouldn't be exploiting them.

Rob

[Robert]

Moving factories to these places have helped them.

Anyway...whatever! The best thing that could possibly happen is for you to have your own job outsourced to some other country. If you think you are safe because you are a white collar, educated person, think again. There are many Indians who are much more educated and will work for 1/10 of your pay. So again, you need to lose it all...you need to be in soup kitchen, then we can talk. Until then, you’ll keep justifying exploitation.

Talk to the hand!

[Sulla]

Quote:

And why does the Capitalist take advantage of this? Please do not hold Capitalism up as some righteous operation. It is based in greed and since this world is under Lucifer it works better than Communism and Socialism. In heaven there will be nothing like this. As John says, "ALL that is in the world...comes not from the Father." And elsewhere we are told that, Satan is the Lord of this world....His principle is seen everywhere. Capitalism is not to be excluded.

I am not talking about whats righteous or holy. Nothing in the world will ever be perfect. I am talking about what works best for the most people and thats capitalism and democracy.

Quote:

Yes, they have their problems, but for you to give the Capitalist a pass shows great blindness. Again, let me spell it out for you, taking advantage of people is called EXPLOITATION!

Let make this simple. This investment in countries with low cost labor can build the country. It will help both parties. This is PROVEN. It does not help people when the country is not run well. This method is the best method in history for improving the standard of living for people.

Quote:

You need to get out more....It helps the owners, but it does very little for those being exploited. If, as you say, these things are good then why the huge...I mean huge trade deficit with China and Mexico?

Answer: Because the exploited can't afford to buy our goods. Yes, we buys theirs. Where does the money go? I can tell very little goes to the poor...it goes to the elite...the corporations.

I think you need to study history a little more. First cheap labor moves after the quailty of living is raised. For example Japan, Taiwan, South Korea etc etc. If a country has an educated and cheap work force it will attract investment and over time will build the country. Then it will slow as it gets harder as the standard of living gets higher and things shift to other countries. So as I said it will help these people. It does not help as much in countries that are not run well.

And the deficeits are because of problems in the US. Rampant comsumerism out pacing what people should be spending. Bad management of some of Americas biggest exporters like the auto industry. Think about this. The US was the leader in electronics. But Japan won because they made better products. The same is true for autos. But now thats starting to shift. Japan has very big problems with its economy and poulation ageing. And lets look at china. It will not continue to grow this fast for ever. And it will soon become the largest consumer country in the world. Being the biggest market for US cars and other products.

Quote:

First of all let me make some corrections....Japan, South Korea were never 3rd world countries. China and Mexico are....Yes, the elite in China are doing well, but the average Chinese is just barely able to have a roof over his head and food on his plate. And because there are so many of them you will always have a cheap source of labor. Besides, the Communists allow very, very limited unionism. If these Chinese leaders cared they wouldn't allow their people to be run over by folks from abroad (mainly US Capitalist). Also, if America were truly a Christian nation we wouldn't be exploiting them.

Never said the were. I said they were examples of cheap labor growing a country and they are. In china since 1981 500 million people have climbed out of poverty. China now is the secound largest car market in the world. And it the fastest growing car market in the world. And india I think is 3rd. And with Chinas 1 child policy they will not always have to many people. 1 child is not enough to make a population grow. And as stated US capitalist have helped china bring 500 million people out of poverty. The most in the history of the world in the same time period.

Quote:

Anyway...whatever! The best thing that could possibly happen is for you to have your own job outsourced to some other country. If you think you are safe because you are a white collar, educated person, think again. There are many Indians who are much more educated and will work for 1/10 of your pay. So again, you need to lose it all...you need to be in soup kitchen, then we can talk. Until then, you’ll keep justifying exploitation.

Talk to the hand!

What ever I would suggest looking at the facts.

[Dr. Shane]

The US has this huge trade deficit with Mexico. They can't afford to buy our goods due to the fact that they are exploited! It's all about cheap labor....

Our trade deficit with Mexico is mostly driven by oil. Mexico and Canada are our two largest sources of crude oil.

Mexicans can afford to buy our goods. Most of our goods are cheaper and of better quality than goods made in their own country. I live in what has been rated the poorest county in the US for several years. Yet our retail industry is booming because of all the Mexicans that come here to purchase goods. Our trucking industry is booming because of NAFTA taking goods into and out of Mexico. American trucks deliver more goods to Mexican destinations that Mexican trucks deliver to US destinations!

Some Mexican workers are exploited but not the ones working at American manufacturing plants. Their wages are set by the government and Mexicans line up for the jobs because they are normally the best paying jobs with the best working conditions in their communities.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Sulla

Now about Mexico. Why does Mexico have cheap labor? Its because they have never been a well run country. They have corruption that runs deep into the culture.

And the Capitalists here take advantage of this. It is called exploitation.

ROb

Prices are driven by consumers. When we go shopping we tell manufacturers what we want. If "Made In The USA" is more important than price then manufacturers would make all their products in the USA. If less expensive products is more important that it being domestically made, then manufacturers will build factories in Mexico and China so they can give consumers cheap products.

Now we have to remember in all this that when most products were made domestically the poor class could rarely afford new clothing or toys for their children. Since more products are made overseas now most of the poor in the US are able to buy their children new clothing and toys. So there is a silver lining to products being made overseas.

[Dr. Shane]

Here in the US we have labor rights. We have minimum wages. We have anti-discrimination laws, etc.

Mexico has labor rights laws. Mexico has a minimum wage. In fact, Mexico has a government department dedicated to investigating workers' complaints about their employers.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Anyway...whatever! The best thing that could possibly happen is for you to have your own job outsourced to some other country. If you think you are safe because you are a white collar, educated person, think again. There are many Indians who are much more educated and will work for 1/10 of your pay. So again, you need to lose it all...you need to be in soup kitchen, then we can talk. Until then, you’ll keep justifying exploitation.

Talk to the hand!

Whatever, I would suggest looking at the facts.

No, your facts are wrong and the best thing to change your mind is for you to lose your job to unfair trade. Until then your acceptance of exploitation is unchristian!

[Robert]

I am not talking about whats righteous ....

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know of any pure capitalistic systems in the world today. In a pure capitalistic system the government would not be building roads, bridges, airports, schools, satellites, spacecraft, establishing minimum wages, labor laws or mandatory retirement and health-car programs.

[Robert]

Prices are driven by consumers. When we go shopping we tell manufacturers what we want.

Typical lame Republican stance! Let me correct your assumption:

Bad trade agreements dictate what consumers want! Naturally, folks will buy against their own economic interest. They don't care if some Chinese worker makes next to nothing as long as they get cheap prices. They only care when they lose their jobs to cheap, unfair trade. Boy, that sure sounds like the love of self to me!

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know any school of business that teaches trade agreements dictate what consumers want. I got my degree at the very liberal Minnesota State University, Mankato and they taught me that the consumer dictates the market. Consumers are all powerful.

Moreover, why do Americans think they own certain industries? What moral or ethic guidelines dictate that a company shouldn't have the freedom to move its factories? The fact is that the wealth in America was created by the private sector. When portions of that private sector start to move to other countries they spread the wealth. What is wrong with that? Why is spreading the wealth to poor, under-developed countries wrong?

At the same time, by moving factories to other countries these companies are able to sell their products cheap enough so that the poorest class of Americans can afford them. America's poor can have HDTVs, microwaves, computers, cell phones, new shoes, air conditioning, new bedding and even a Christmas tree with decorations at the holidays.

If America goes back to the days of protective tariffs it will only serve to hurt the poor. The poor in other countries will be denied employment at American factories which pay the best in their respective communities. The poor in America will go back to buying their clothing at the Goodwill and Salvation Army stores. An old, 13" analog TV will become a treasure they find at a garage sale.

[Robert]

...they taught me that the consumer dictates the market.

[Sulla]

Quote:

No, your facts are wrong and the best thing to change your mind is for you to lose your job to unfair trade. Until then your acceptance of exploitation is unchristian!

Nope sorry my facts are correct. And I have seen no facts from you.

Quote:

That's an understatement! If "coveting" were outlawed the whole Capitalistic system would collapse in one day. According to Paul "all that is in the world" is based in "iniquity". After all the purpose behind Capitalism is the personal pursuit of wealth. That is the essence of iniquity.

There is nothing wrong with the persuit of wealth. Many of the closest people to God in the Bible were wealthy. Its when money becomes a God that its wrong. So no coveting would not make capatilism calapse. If anything it would probably make it more stable.

Robert do something for me. Lay out for us all your plans on how things should be run today. Tell me if you were in charge today how you would change things.

[Dr. Shane]

I live on the Texas/Mexico border. I attend church with my family in Mexico twice a month. The area where we attend church has a lot of American and Japanese factories. The government sets the wage rates for the employees. On top of that the factories give out coupons for the company store as bonuses to employees when they don't miss work for a week or month. These factory jobs are considered to be the best places to work in the community. They stimulate many other jobs like barbers, mechanic shops, dry cleaners, restaurants, little grocery stores, bars, furniture stores, electronic repairs shops, etc. The best way to describe it is "spreading the wealth". These factories give these poor people an opportunity to support their families and communities. The average wage in Mexico in areas with American factories is significantly higher than the average wage in Mexico. It isn't just the workers at the factories making more money. Everyone in the community benefits from the factories.

[Sulla]

Good points Shane. My mother also lives down by Mexico. Matter of fact up until last month they lived directly on the Rio Grand it was in their front yard. And here is another point about Mexico. Even tho it as not done as well as we would have liked its the 12th largest economy in the world give or take.

[Robert]

These factories give these poor people an opportunity to support their families and communities.

These factories are there for the cheap labor. Call it what it is - exploitation! To say it is to spread the wealth is a lie!

[Robert]

There is nothing wrong with the persuit of wealth.

[Dr. Shane]

These factories are there for the cheap labor. Call it what it is - exploitation! To say it is to spread the wealth is a lie!

It is cheap labor by our standards but not by their standards. So it is not exploitation. We are providing these people the best paying jobs they have ever had. That is not exploitation. That is spreading the wealth.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

These factories are there for the cheap labor. Call it what it is - exploitation! To say it is to spread the wealth is a lie!

It is cheap labor by our standards but not by their standards. So it is not exploitation. We are providing these people the best paying jobs they have ever had. That is not exploitation. That is spreading the wealth.

The main reason was not "to spread the wealth", rather it is ALL about labor costs. The Corporations want more profit, so they outsourced American jobs and exploit these Mexicans! Americans then buy these goods that the Mexican workers produce, but these workers can't afford the things we buy. Hence the huge trade deficit.....It's unfair trade.

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

Well,,, it is about labor costs,,, that much is correct. However the rest is a bit off base.

1. Corporations are in business to make a profit. They will always make a profit of go out of business. It doesn't matter if they build factories overseas or not. Corporations exist only to make a profit and for not other reason.

2. Building factories overseas is done so that cheaper products can be sold to the consumer. The key to success in a capitalistic society is to produce a product the masses can afford to buy. Because factories are built overseas the poorest of all Americans can afford to buy their children new shoes. The poorest of Americans can have air conditioning, cell phones and DVD players. Not only can poor Americans afford these items, but many poor Mexicans, Chinese and others in developing countries are able to afford them too.

3. The trade deficit is driven primarily by oil. Our trade deficit with China certainly is off balance and our trade policy with them could use some adjustment. However even there the problem isn't American factories being built there.

4. American factories being built overseas is spreading the wealth. It helps poor Americans here at home and it helps poverty stricken people in areas where the factories are built. No one is being exploited.