Dr. Shane Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Just because someone has lived in the Arab world wouldn't make them more of an authority on the issue. In fact, it could actually hinder them by clouding their prospective. I get my world news from Al Jazeera English which is available for free for anyone that buys the Glorystar satellite which also has the Hope Channel and 3ABN. So while I have a very western perspective, I am getting the news from the Arab perspective. Bravus can correct me if I am wrong but I think he was referring to the American practice of pornography. That I simply cannot defend. More and more Americans are viewing pornography as simply an act of free expression much like art. Many American parents would never ever consider ever approving of their children to pose for pornographic pictures or star in porno videos but then too, many Arab parents would never approve of their children being suicide bombers. Yet many American parents are not too bothered or ashamed by their children working in the sex industry and many Arab parents are not bothered or ashamed by their children committing suicide as a means to kill Jews. Now the case can be made that the Arab extreme (suicide bombing) is more immoral. Suicide bombing kills both the person doing it and other innocent people. Pornography kills neither the perpetrator or its victim. The victims of a suicide bomber are not willing victims and the victims (consumers) of pornography are willing victims. So while I agree that American acceptance of pornography does show a lack of love for our children, it is not on the same level as parents sending their children off strapped with bombs. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Shane, did you catch anything I've said about marginalization, and desperation? Notice that this stuff does not happen in UAE, or IRAN. It only happens to occur in Iraq, Palestine and other occupied territories. Do you think that MAYBE it has something to do with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 It doesn't happen where the Islamic clerics rule the land because the Islamic clerics are behind it. It's only connection to "occupation" is that the Islamic clerics have declared holy war or jihad on those that are not Islamic. They are not really into the free thought thing. They don't go for the idea of free will and everyone having the right to choose their own religion. So in areas where there is a little freedom - like Iraq and Israel - the Islamic clerics have declared jihad. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 18, 2009 Members Share Posted January 18, 2009 Like I have said in a few posts already. Jews and Palestinians have lived together for many years. Than the british who were in control of the area promised both sides the same piece of land, and so the the UN. The Jews accepted this but the Arab countries in the area didn't. So when Israel became a recognized Nation the Arab countries really got upset. So they started screwing with the heads of the Palestinians. They started out hijacking planes and blowing them up and/or taking them to other countries. So when Israel stop that, than the terrorists started getting suicide bombers all over the place. But Israel put a stop to that to by inclosing Gaza and the west bank with lots of check points and guess what they put a stop to the suicide bombings or at least to a halt. So now we have the rocket attacks. So no matter what Israel does the terrorists find another way of killing Israelis. And unfortunately, at least in my eyes, its not the palestinians fault, its the terrorists, who are probably not palestinians but syria, lebanon, saudi arabia, jordan, and egypt. With help from Iran, who is supply all these weapons. Obviously there are palestinians involved also, but thats because they keep buying into the terrorist propaganda. I know its not an easy sell, and it doesn't help that all these christian groups keep helping more and more jews to move into this little area. But that is also due to the fact that the Jews are persecuted no matter where they live. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 There were problems in Palestine before Great Brittan became involved. The Ottoman Empire controlled the area prior to WW1. The British had signed onto the Zionist movement prior to WW1 but not being in control of Palestine were not in the position to do a lot until after they won the war and control of Palestine with it. But that is all history and doesn't help anyone out at this point. We hear the mantra that the Hews are persecuted no matter where they live but it isn't true. The Jews are safe in the United States of America. Let's not forget that. Many Jews believe Palestine belongs to them because of a promise made to Abraham by God. As Seventh-day Adventist Christians we do not believe that but many Christians believe as Jews do in that respect. However the fact remains that Jews do trace their heritage to that land. Regardless if they have a right to it or not, they do trace their heritage to that land. The Jews are there to stay. That is a fact. If there is ever going to be peace the Arab nations have to accept that. I support a two state solution. I would like to see the Gaza Strip and the West Bank become a separate state for the Palestinians. I think it is a mistake for them to fight over Jerusalem. Israel won Jerusalem in a war started by the Arabs. Israel doesn't want to give it up. Wars have consequences. If the Arabs don't want to risk losing land they shouldn't start wars. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 That's why I support the intervention and pressure from outside to solve this conflict. Mainly because it has a potential to unravel into full scale WWIII is not curbed. Yet, many countries utilize this conflict for political reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 19, 2009 Members Share Posted January 19, 2009 Actually I think the British just made matters worse. The Ottoman Empire actually removed jews that were living in Palestine and than would not allow more than 50 families to purchase land. When the british took over they reversed this. But you are correct about Israel taking control of Jerusalem and that if the arabs don't want to loose anymore they showed not start up what they can't finish. The Jews have been persecuted here in the US at one time. But they have survived where ever they have been anyway. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I heard on the news that 13 from Israel have been killed in this war. I think it is such a shame. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Toward the end of the Ottoman Empire they were trying to get Jews out of the Palestinian area but earlier they had encouraged Jews to settle there and escape the Catholic persecution of the Spanish inquisition. The Arabs conquered the land in the seventh century and thus want to claim ownership. But in the past the same land has been conquered by Egyptians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans and Turks. Just because the Arabs conquered it once upon a time doesn't mean it is theirs forever and ever. The real problem is the union of church and state. If Israel-Palestine had a secular government and the people wanted to live in peace with each other they could. But neither wants a secular government. Israel wants a Jewish state and the Palestinians want an Islamic state. There will never be a lasting peace like that. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I think it's important to understand the involvement in all of this. This is essentially a modern day Vietnam War that US simply outsourcing to Israel. Back in the Afgan-Russian war days, US re-inforced radical Islamists and supported them with whatever they needed. So, the moral superiority is out of question here IMO. Just quoting Brzezinski in interview: Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today? Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire. Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists? Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 It's ironic that Brzezinski name floats up once again as president's elect mentor. Yet the foreign policy of countries around the globe are Machiavellian in nature... the ends justify the means. So what if people die? Any number justifies the breakdown of the Soviet Union... or Israel(from the opposing side), or Iran and Iraq... you name them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Would Afghanistan been better off if the USSR would have conquered them and turned their children into atheists? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 See, that's exactly of the kind of Machiavellian ideology I'm talking about. So what you are saying that lies and deceit, and loss of life are justifiable because of the somehow "moral superiority" of the end goal? On top of that, it's kind of hard to answer your question in light of US teaching an atheistic world view in schools (both during the conflict years, and today). Soviet-Afgan relations did not just surface in 70s. There was a long history of support right after the conception of Communism. Brzezinski himself admitted that the Afgan liberation was not the purpose of the war. The purpose was to weaken the Soviet Union, and he went on to say that this resulted in it's downfall. So, the moral problem is that extremism is encouraged when it serves your political goals, and it is fought when it works against these. Especially, the hypocrisy of it all is evident when considering the reasons why the mujahadeen did not like the Communist government ideology, and were passing new laws that allowed for gender equality. The same thing that you are criticizing the same people for. What I laugh at is that the same "strapping the children" and using women for shields tactics were used back then, but these were overlooked, and instead Russia was demonized. There's an old saying... you reap what you sew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 No, what I am saying is that in Afghanistan we had a choice of doing nothing and letting the USSR force atheism on the people there or doing something which actually allowed the people there to force Islam on the people. Neither are very good choices. There is a big difference between forcing atheism on people and teaching it in a free society. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Oh, no doubt about that. Yet, jumping from supporting radicals to all of a sudden fighting them... it just does not look that great in light of what's going on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2009 Oh, no doubt about that. Yet, jumping from supporting radicals to all of a sudden fighting them... it just does not look that great in light of what's going on now. But if we examine why we are fighting against them now, it makes good sense. We're fighting against them because they're fighting against the freedom of the people. If the Taliban had their way, women would not be able to be educated, and there would be no democracy. They executed homosexuals. They would not even let people use satelite dishes to watch TV or telephones to contact relatives in the US. We have friends from there whose parents died without being able to talk to the children before they passed away. They also couldn't send money directly to their relatives in Afghanistan but had to send it through Pakistan because the Taliban wouldn't permit citizens any direct contact with the West. While the USSR was occupying Afghanistan, those same radicals were fighting against atheism and against an opponent of democracy. We supported them because we had a common enemy. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 It makes good sense politically, but not a good sense morally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Well ... Hamas has declared victory. How is that victory? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 20, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2009 Well, I agree there. We live in a dog-eat-dog world for sure. It's going to be interesting to see how things change-- if they do-- under Obama, and just how they change. It is actually very likely that Obama is going to go after Osama bin Laden harder than Bush did. He also plans to do in Afghanistan what Bush did in Iraq. What do you think about these things? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2009 Very interesting questions, but it might be time for a new thread to get into them... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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