Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 12, 2009 Rob, when something is "ruined," what do you do with it? Throw it out, right? But did God throw out His creation? No. So it must not be "ruined," as you say. The Fall damaged the creation of God but not irreparably. Sin defaced God's creation, but the things that God made are still beautiful and He will one day restore them. It hasn't been ruined completely. It still has great and enduring value. If it was completely ruined, God would not have emptied all heaven in the sacrifice of His beloved Son in order to restore it. Bottom line: The Sabbath is still with us and is still meaningful. God wants us to remember Him and what He did both at the Creation and at the Cross. The Sabbath is a good time for this. REMEMBER TO KEEP THE SABBATH HOLY BECAUSE THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH.... And we know who made the universe and the Sabbath-- the same One who died on the cross to give us our liberty from sin and death. So He not only created us but He redeemed us. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The Fall damaged the creation of God but not irreparably. Sin defaced God's creation, but the things that God made are still beautiful and He will one day restore them. It hasn't been ruined completely. It still has great and enduring value. If it was completely ruined, God would not have emptied all heaven in the sacrifice of His beloved Son in order to restore it. You are totally off base....Does God restore the earth when He comes back? Does He dress it up...fix a little here and there? Let's see: "...the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." [2 Peter 3:10] How much of the earth will God improve on? None! The earth will be burned up....Nothing in it is redeemable, nothing! It must be scrapped! Then, when this fallen, ruined world is completely "burned up" God will create a new earth.... The same is true of us....Nothing we have now, our bodies...our humanity, will enter heaven. "Flesh and blood" cannot inherit heaven. Hence, we shall be "changed"....Again, God doesn't improve on what He has now in our humanity....It must die. In its place we receive a new, glorified creation....Then, and only then, will we have a new creation. Thus the Sabbath in the new earth. Then the Sabbath will symbolize a perfect and complete redemption...a complete restoration. Hence, when we rest in heaven it will point to God's perfect re-creation. But as of now the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect creation. Hence God is not resting as He did that original Sabbath some 6000 years ago! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them. But that work is on going...it is never complete....As EGW states, as long as time shall last there will be no stopping point where we can say we have arrived. Furthermore you must look at the context....Much of the book of the law is OC....So you can quote those Sabbath references all you want I am not under law - under the OC....If you are going to insist that I follow these OC, OT regulations, then when someone messes up on his Sabbath keeping you must stone him....You can't just pick and chose....You have to follow all the laws...including the stoning of those who break the sabbath.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Hey Robert,Did they let you off work early because of that bump on your head? Would you like a knot on your head? Bug off, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 But as of now the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect creation. Hence God is not resting as He did that original Sabbath some 6000 years ago! Rob Are you sure about that Rob? You know that the garden of Eden was untouched by the curse and was removed and transferred to Heaven. The Sabbath still points to the garden of Eden, that perfect creation where our citizenship is. The garden of Eden will come down with the New Jerusalem out of Heaven and will be restored to Adam and to the redeemed in its original state. "Our citizenship is in Heaven." Phil.3:20. king James version sky *but i do agree that this earth will be burned up and God will make a new creation just as we need to receive new bodies, incorruptible and immortal bodies at the second coming either by resurrection or translation. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 The Fall damaged the creation of God but not irreparably. Sin defaced God's creation, but the things that God made are still beautiful and He will one day restore them. It hasn't been ruined completely. It still has great and enduring value. If it was completely ruined, God would not have emptied all heaven in the sacrifice of His beloved Son in order to restore it. You are totally off base....Does God restore the earth when He comes back? Does He dress it up...fix a little here and there? ....Nothing we have now, our bodies...our humanity, will enter heaven. "The earth abides forever," and the humanity that God created at the beginning will continue throughout eternity. It will be a glorified humanity and will realize all of God's original plan. 1 Cor. 15; Rev. 21, 22. I don't think anyone can read books such as the Psalms and Isaiah and not see that the creation that God originally made, even though drastically changed by sin, is still beautiful. When we look at God's creation through the eyes of Scripture, we still see His greatness and wisdom. Job 35-41. Humanity is still given the responsibility to help preserve what God has made, showing that God views it as having value even though Satan succeeded in delaying God's plan for humanity and the earth. Ps. 8; 19: 1-6; Rev. 11: 18; Therefore, we still have reason to keep the Sabbath as a memorial of the Lord who both made us and saved us and will recreate the earth. Sin did not change the fact that God is our creator. We need to keep that in mind. We did not make ourselves. God is our Creator and Redeemer and Savior. That's reason enough to keep the Sabbath. It has to do with "remember[ing] the Sabbath to keep it holy BECAUSE the Lord made the heavens and the earth" and everything it them. As long as that's true, the Sabbath will remain. Is. 66. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert You are totally off base....Does God restore the earth when He comes back? Does He dress it up...fix a little here and there? ....Nothing we have now, our bodies...our humanity, will enter heaven. [/quote'] "The earth abides forever," and the humanity that God created at the beginning will continue throughout eternity. No John...the earth as we know it now will cease to exist....In its place God will create a new heaven and a new earth....And our humanity doesn't come out of the grave....We receive a new, glorified humanity from the 2nd Adam on resurrection day....Who are you kidding? There's nothing redeemable in our fallen flesh and world.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Sin did not change the fact that God is our creator. So, since I am a sinner, and since this world is under Satan's rule (god of this world), God is the creator of sin? You said He is my creator, right? Well then, since I'm a sinner and He created me , He creates sinners... .See where your theology takes you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 the garden of Eden was untouched by the curse and was removed and transferred to Heaven. The Sabbath still points to the garden of Eden, that perfect creation where our citizenship is. Dude...good try, but your grasping at straws....God created Eden, true, but He also created the whole world....This world, has been ruined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 12, 2009 ....And our humanity doesn't come out of the grave....We receive a new, glorified humanity from the 2nd Adam on resurrection day....Who are you kidding? There's nothing redeemable in our fallen flesh and world.... We do not receive new personalities or new characters at the resurrection/Second Coming. We will know one another. It's important to realize that our struggles against sin and our experiences on this earth will have an influence throughout eternity. A few examples: Let those who are contemplating marriage weigh every sentiment and watch every development of character in the one with whom they think to unite their life destiny. Let every step toward a marriage alliance be characterized by modesty, simplicity, sincerity, and an earnest purpose to please and honor God. Marriage affects the afterlife both in this world and in the world to come. A sincere Christian will make no plans that God cannot approve. Letters to Young Lovers (1983), page 90, paragraph 1 All the revelations of the past bring added responsibilities upon the workers in these last days. The past, present, and future are linked together. We must learn lessons from the experiences of other ages. If there are any of our brethren who think that they have devised plans by which they can secure a monopoly of any line of God's work, they are released from all such burdens. Individually we form a part of the great whole, fulfilling our part in the scenes foreseen long ages ago. In the counsels of God a place was assigned to every person, and each one is to devote his entire ability, his influence, the energy of his whole being, in an earnest endeavor to discharge the responsibility laid upon him. It is the duty of every human intelligence to put into daily practice the instructions of Christ in the seventeenth chapter of John by living a practical, Christian life. We are to be united to one another in the bonds of Christlike love. This is the path marked out for all. By following in it, without boasting, without self exaltation, we may satisfy the high claims of God upon us. If any are inclined to boast of their superior talents, let them bear in mind that these talents are another's, only lent to them for a season, and that if they are not employed in the Lord's work, they will be taken from them. Make no boasts of your extensive knowledge and influence. The great plan of redemption connects every man with his fellow-laborer. The influence of the past helps to mold the work of the present, and that in its turn enables us to lay hold of the work line after line, upon which we may carry on the future work. All these agencies have a close relation, not only to time, but to the endless ages of the future, reaching into eternity. The Review and Herald, July 23, 1895, paragraph 8 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 We do not receive new ....characters at the resurrection/Second Coming. Okay, but that's not a tangible thing....I see it as frame of mind....the converted mind, who loves the principle of agape....That's the new heart, something the believer is experiencing now.....Yes, that attitude will be taken with him, but that came from the new birth.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 13, 2009 It's true, of course, that nothing physical we will be taken from this present world into the next. However, we don't know the relationship between our present bodies and the bodies we receive at the resurrection. There must be some kind of relationship because when Christ was resurrected, His previous body was not left behind but apparently used in some manner. There was a definite similarity between the physical being of Christ after the resurrection and the way His body was before His resurrection. We are told that He will bear the marks of the crucifixion throughout eternity, and eventually these scars on Christ's body will be the only tangible reminder of sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Hence God is not resting as He did that original Sabbath some 6000 years ago! There's no Biblical foundation for that. It's not even good speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 13, 2009 Since the 7th day Sabbath is called "the Sabbath of the Lord," and since the Sabbath was blessed and made holy, we have to believe that there is some real sense in which God rests on the Sabbath. In other words, there must be some difference in the activity of God on the seventh day as compared to other time. I believe the Bible would have us believe that God actually meets with us through His Spirit on the Sabbath in a way that He does not on other days of the week. I've been aware of this Sabbath blessing almost all my life, even when I wasn't living as a Christian. When I look back, I can see that God used the Sabbath to speak to my heart and mind and remind me of who He was and of who I am. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I've been aware of this Sabbath blessing almost all my life, even when I wasn't living as a Christian. When I look back, I can see that God used the Sabbath to speak to my heart and mind and remind me of who He was and of who I am. I have too. Plus there is nothing in the Bible that says God stopped resting because of sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 ....His previous body was not left behind but apparently used in some manner. 1 Cor 15:42 The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Hence God is not resting as He did that original Sabbath some 6000 years ago! There's no Biblical foundation for that. It's not even good speculation. His rest was eternal....His rest was perpetual....Yet before the fall I would say Adam & Eve recognized the 7th day as a symbol of God's perfect creation....Since the fall the Sabbath no longer represents a sinless and perfection creation. Therefore the Sabbath of creation has lost its original meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Since the 7th day Sabbath is called "the Sabbath of the Lord," and since the Sabbath was blessed and made holy, we have to believe that there is some real sense in which God rests on the Sabbath. Speculation.... The Sabbath is a symbol....When God finished His perfect creation He didn't start improving on it the 8th day (the day after the 7th)....His rest was eternal.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Adventists need to be careful not to do to the Sabbath what the Judaizers did with circumcision.... Let me ask you a question: Was Abraham justified by faith before or after he was circumcised? Paul says before.... Why, years later, was he required to be circumcised? The Sabbath is closely related.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook There's no Biblical foundation for that. It's not even good speculation. His rest was eternal....His rest was perpetual....Yet before the fall I would say Adam & Eve recognized the 7th day as a symbol of God's perfect creation....Since the fall the Sabbath no longer represents a sinless and perfection creation. Therefore the Sabbath of creation has lost its original meaning. I'm not taking your word for it. Where's the proof? Surely you have texts for a claim like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert His rest was eternal....His rest was perpetual....Yet before the fall I would say Adam & Eve recognized the 7th day as a symbol of God's perfect creation....Since the fall the Sabbath no longer represents a sinless and perfection creation. Therefore the Sabbath of creation has lost its original meaning. I'm not taking your word for it. Where's the proof? Surely you have texts for a claim like that. Why did God rest? Was He tired? No....Genesis states that He rested because He was through....He couldn't add to His perfect creation....He stopped working until the fall....Then He started working to bring us back to the point before we fell....IT's called redemption.... So God's not resting from His perfect creation....Why? It's ruined.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I still don't see any texts. Maybe my eyes are getting bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 A claim like that without scripture is just opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I still don't see any texts. Maybe my eyes are getting bad. 1:31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 2:1 1 Heaven and Earth were finished, down to the last detail. 2 By the seventh day God had finished his work. On the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 God blessed the seventh day. He made it a Holy Day Because on that day he rested from his work, all the creating God had done. [MSG] The point is that God rested, not because He was tired, but because His work was finished...it was perfect...it was complete...it was sinless.....He didn't leave anything undone....Hence, His rest was eternal, that is, until sin entered..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook I still don't see any texts. Maybe my eyes are getting bad. 1:31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 2:1 1 Heaven and Earth were finished, down to the last detail. 2 By the seventh day God had finished his work. On the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 God blessed the seventh day. He made it a Holy Day Because on that day he rested from his work, all the creating God had done. [MSG] The point is that God rested, not because He was tired, but because His work was finished...it was perfect...it was complete...it was sinless.....He didn't leave anything undone....Hence, His rest was eternal, that is, until sin entered..... Now my understanding is that when the gospel is fully restored from the perversions of the man of sin over the centuries, the Sabbath will be a sign of the restored gospel....At that time Sunday will be a sign of the false gospel....Signs are not the truth...they point to a truth...they symbolize a truth, therefore what is primarily important is the restored gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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