Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

There is a huge difference between deliberately killing that person who, if left alone, would gradually become more independent and self-sustaining (a baby,) and the pulling of the plug on that person who, if left alone, will die on his/her own (I had to do this with my father a year ago.)

Huge difference. Not even in the same category.

karl, would you say your posts are illustrative of dichotomous thinking? all black or all white?

Eze 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

No, but I think that may be what you're trying to say. If so, why don't you just say it?

Are you seriously saying that you cannot see the huge difference I am pointing out above between deliberately killing a baby who, if left alone, would gradually become more independent and self-sustaining, versus the pulling of the plug on a terminal person who, if left alone, will quickly die on his/her own? Can you seriously not see the difference?

I realize that we're all terminal, but there's a huge difference in the imminence of that terminality. We're talking about the opposite ends of life.

[teresaq]

To me; it is very disturbing to see professing Adventists follow suit, using slightly different pet theories; yet with the exact same results. Almost every anti-abortion source one could name has become fanaticism or worse.

[teresaq]

Are you seriously saying that you cannot see the huge difference I am pointing out above between deliberately killing a baby who, if left alone, would gradually become more independent and self-sustaining, versus the pulling of the plug on a terminal person who, if left alone, will quickly die on his/her own? Can you seriously not see the difference?

I realize that we're all terminal, but there's a huge difference in the imminence of that terminality. We're talking about the opposite ends of life.

meanwhile more children are sold into prostitution.

more children die slow, painful deaths of starvation.

more children are living on the streets surviving the best they can.

more infants and girls are raped because men believe sex with a virgen will cure aids.

thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

im not going to address any more of these meaningless posts in light of what is truly important.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

In the first place, B should not have committed so great a crime as to bring into being children that reason must teach him would be diseased because they must receive a miserable legacy from their parents. .... {2T 379.2}

I'm still trying to understand your position. Is it your position that 1) Ellen White would have considered abortion as a proper remedy for that 'crime'? or 2) Do you consider that abortion is a proper remedy for that 'crime?'

Good question! Murdering the innocent as a solution to the criminal actions of someone else violates the basic principle of justice taught in the Bible. The Bible is very clear about the moral principle that the children should not be punished for the sins of the parents. If society wants to punish the man for his crime of bringing children into the world, justice demands that the man be punished and not his innocent unborn child. Abortion compounds the evil done in the first place. The woman willingly becomes a victim again and her body is violated this time by the abortionists who invades her body to kill her own child.

[Nic Samojluk]

Once the child has been conceived and growing inside the woman, the child is already "in the world". I mean, let's think about it. The child is not on the moon. The child is not on Mars. The child is inside the woman on planet Earth. That is where the child is. The question then becomes, 'how do we deal with this child?' Does this child have any rights? If the child has no rights, when does the child gain rights? After 12 weeks? After 24 weeks? After birth? After two years of age?

Excellent question. My answer would be: The moment the unborn child comes into existence. That happens at the moment of conception when the new human being acquires it own identity and its own DNA. This was the accepted position of science until 1973 when the Hippocratic Oath was thrashed by nine unelected Justices of the Court.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Karl, until you become a woman and are put in a situation where you need to make a choice, you have no business telling anyone what they should or should not do in the case of abortion. It is between the woman and God. Not between the woman and Nic or Doug or Karl or anyone else.

Quote:

Sorry RW, no can do. Nic, Karl and Doug have to answer to a higher authority! OUR WIVES told us we had to represent their opinions whenever abortion was discussed without them or sleep on the couch! So we chose the former option. But,just in case they were wrong in their anti-abortion sentiments, I took the liberty of asking some other women how they approached the situation.

I asked former Adventist Patti McKinney, founder of Women Exploited by Abortion (WEBA); former SDA Teresa Beem (founder of Adventists For Life); Mother Teresa (Teresa Beem's mother?; Kate Lindsay, M.D.(pioneer of SDA nursing work and renown olive taster); Beverly LaHaye (Concerned Women of America); Norma McCorvey (Roe of Roe V. Wade); Sandra Cano (Doe of Doe v. Bolton); Millie Youngberg, Ed.D., Emeritus Professor (SDA); two former Planned Parenthood Abortion clinic managers; Joni Erickson Tada (quadrapelegic); Gianna Gesson (abortion survivor); and Corrie Ten Boom (holocaust survivor)WHEW! This is exhausting! Anyway, they were all sympathetic to our wive's point of view so what do you expect us to do,divorce them?

P.S. Did I happen to mention that every poll ever taken shows that the % of women who oppose abortion is greater than the % of men who oppose it?

Doug,

Wow! That's an impressive list. I would only add that if nine male unelected Justices of the Court were responsible for voiding the right to life of a large segment of the human race, then other men have the sacred responsibility of undoing the greatest injustice committed against humanity. Did I mention that those nine men were male?

Doug, I took the liberty of correcting some of your punctuation marks. I hope you don't mind!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Doug, I took the liberty of correcting some of your punctuation marks. I hope you don't mind!

and I still agree with Doug Y:

Originally Posted By: Doug Yowell

God reveals which choice is right and which choice is wrong so that we can choose the right choice. He then alerts us to the inevitable consequence of making the wrong choice while at the same time guaranteeing us the power to carry thru on the right choice.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

Would you make the same argument in favor of legalizing rape incest, stealing, and murder?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

Would you make the same argument in favor of legalizing rape incest, stealing, and murder?

I have went over this before. Please don't ask me to repeat myself over and over. That gets real tiring.

And it's irrelevant too.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Your second argument is based on statistics usually provided by either Planned Parenthood...

Originally Posted By: Shane

No. The stats I have read come out of the various countries. Living on the border and being bi-lingual, I ofter watch Mexican news from Mexican channels and read Mexican newspapers published in Mexico. Planned Parenthood is not my news source.

Nic "assumes" a lot of things.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: karl

Are you seriously saying that you cannot see the huge difference I am pointing out above between deliberately killing a baby who, if left alone, would gradually become more independent and self-sustaining, versus the pulling of the plug on a terminal person who, if left alone, will quickly die on his/her own? Can you seriously not see the difference?

I realize that we're all terminal, but there's a huge difference in the imminence of that terminality. We're talking about the opposite ends of life.

meanwhile more children are sold into prostitution.

more children die slow, painful deaths of starvation.

more children are living on the streets surviving the best they can.

more infants and girls are raped because men believe sex with a virgen will cure aids.

thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

im not going to address any more of these meaningless posts in light of what is truly important.

So because of all those dangers we should kill them first? With that kind of reasoning, I think you are right not to comment anymore. Go take care of the truly important things.

And about those texts you quoted, I don't see what they have to do with abortion. I didn't see one that says: "I was in danger, so you snuffed out my life".

[Dr. Shane]

Do we as a church have the right to consider ourselves to be “God’s Remnant” on earth, those who “keep God’s Commandments” and at the same time defend women’s right to butcher their own children?

That is not the church's position.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Is this a coded message?

Yes it is....

Can you translate it for me to either English or Spanish?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Yes it is....

Can you translate it for me to either English or Spanish?

LOL = Laugh out loud

[Nic Samojluk]

Ground control to Major Tom.How can anyone resist this logic? First you say a person HAS to be a WOMAN in this position then you say that those women who disagree with you who HAVE BEEN IN THAT POSITION are irrelevent because they don't agree with your position!!!! Hard to reason with that. Heads you win tails I lose. Got it! Wait a minute here. How do YOU KNOW that God cannot and does not reveal His mind on this matter to others? Why is this the only important moral issue that He neglected to check in on? Since you seem pretty confident that your pro-choice view is also God's view please explain why God lets so many of us react wrongfully? Why doesn't he take that pro-choice approach on things like smoking weed, dropping LSD,throwing plastic bottles into the ocean,or even suicide(ala Karl)?You have agreed that abortion was a sin so why is it the only sin that is accountable only between God and the sinner?

Yes. If the Sabbath is attacked, the church reacts in a violent manner; if smoking is defended, the church goes into a tail spin; nevertheless, when fifty million of innocent babies are butchered, the church defends the right to choose, and anyone who dares to sound the alarm becomes an unforgiving, judgemental, and unchristian idividual with no right to speak on the subject.

[Woody]

QR frame.

lol

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If the Sabbath is attacked, the church reacts in a violent manner; if smoking is defended, the church goes into a tail spin; nevertheless, when fifty million of innocent babies are butchered, the church defends the right to choose, and anyone who dares to sound the alarm becomes an unforgiving, judgemental, and unchristian idividual with no right to speak on the subject.

non sequitor

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Doug I understand your frustration. Smoking some gange is one thing, but don't go back to cigarettes!!![/quote'] Hold on a second!! Unless you're in my situation I think it's downright unChristian of you to try to tell me what to do!!! This can only be between me and God.

P.S.Is this an intervention?

Right on! This is quite interesting. If someone defends the slaughter of the innocents, he is unchristian, but if he defends the one killing the innocent, he is exercising the divine right to choose. This means that the innocent victin of abortion is deprived of the right to choose, and whoever speaks on behalf ot the victims of abortion is also deprived of the right to choose to speak in defense of the defenseless. Who concocted this twisted type of justice and fairness?

[Guest]

QR frame.

lol

Don't you ever do ANYTHING original?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

straw man argument... No one has deleted your opinions here. In fact, your *ahem* dissertation was given access and people could read it. Your credentials as an authority were checked, and found wanting. Every time you write something you show your bias and prejudice. It's really sad.

[Guest]

straw man argument... No one has deleted your opinions here. In fact, your *ahem* dissertation was given access and people could read it. Your credentials as an authority were checked, and found wanting. Every time you write something you show your bias and prejudice. It's really sad.

Why are you being so hard on Nic, Pam? He hasn't done anything to you. I liked his dissertation. I thought it was well researched, and well written. It was also very informative.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If you read the thread, you will find that his PhD is from a nonaccredited online school. Nic set himself up as an authority when he brought up the fact of his having a PhD. It is basically worthless, I'm sorry to say.

He dissertation is biased and prejudiced from the outset. It is unprofessionally written. I've addressed specifics in the thread. That is my own opinion. You can disagree if you like.

I'm sorry you feel I'm being hard on Nic, but when someone comes in to the forum waving a tomahawk and wearing a warbonnet, my antennae go up, and my reaction is wary, at best.

[Guest]

If you read the thread, you will find that his PhD is from a nonaccredited online school. Nic set himself up as an authority when he brought up the fact of his having a PhD. It is basically worthless, I'm sorry to say.

He dissertation is biased and prejudiced from the outset. It is unprofessionally written. I've addressed specifics in the thread. That is my own opinion. You can disagree if you like.

I'm sorry you feel I'm being hard on Nic, but when someone comes in to the forum waving a tomahawk and wearing a warbonnet, my antennae go up, and my reaction is wary, at best.

I didn't see him as coming in here waving a tomahawk and wearing a warbonnet, I'm the one who started the thread. I think he is a very humble man. And about the accreditation, he still had to do the work regardless, and he knew the college wasn't accredited. He spent ten years of his life on it.

I know you are entitled to your opinion and all, but it sure would be nice if you could cut my friend some slack. He is only speaking out about his convictions, and what he believes in. Some people have strong convictions to take up certain causes, and they can no more deny their convictions than they could stop breathing on command.

He is one of those.

[Dr. Shane]

Yes. If the Sabbath is attacked, the church reacts in a violent manner; if smoking is defended, the church goes into a tail spin; nevertheless, when fifty million of innocent babies are butchered, the church defends the right to choose...

I think this is a gross mischaracterization of the church's position.

[Nic Samojluk]

The Church, in fact, does have a position on abortions that I think is very balanced. The Church's position is not fairly represented by the OP of this topic. The OP very obviously has other axes to grind with the Church; and the abortion question is a very convenient platform for him. More than once he mentions where he sends his tithes and why, he brings in other subjects all sensationalized with anti-church rhetoric like "Adventist leaders cooperate with Nazi Regime," and many other similar sensationalism, none of which is fairly or accurately represented by him.

Overaged,

I have challenged you in the past to deal with specifics instead of generalities. I am glad that you have chosen to include a few reasons why you have decided to disagree with my position. I will try to respond to said arguments. Nevertheless, what I am most interested is to learn whether you agree or disagree with the heart of my research. I started my doctoral investigation with the premise that the Adventist Church has significantly departed from the clearly pro-life attitude of the Adventist pioneers which founded our church. My hope is that one day you will find the courage to publicly state whether you agree or disagree with this. I wish you would answer the following questions:

1. Do you agree that our Adventist pioneers were opposed to the practice of abortion?

2. Do you agree that the Adventist Church today is sympathetic towards the pro-choice position on the issue?

If you answer “Yes” to both questions, then we agree with the fundamental point of my research. If not, then please give me evidence which would support the notion that I erred on both the premise and the conclusions of my investigation.

Now regarding the side issues which you alluded to in this posting of yours:

A. The SDA “Guidelines on Abortion.” Can you cite where I misrepresented those guidelines? I would prefer that you cite specific references taken from my doctoral dissertation, which is where I am most interested in and which will allow me to correct any factual errors contained therein. Here is the link to my dissertation: http://letsfocusonlife.com .

B. The tithe an offerings issue. I believe that I have done perhaps better than others who have left the Adventist Church over the abortion issue. I was tempted to do likewise, but I decided to listen to Elder Richards of the Voice of the Prophecy who said: Cleaning the church can be done only from the inside. It ws a real spiritual struggle for me to start sending a portion of my tithes and offering elsewhere where the value of the unborn was respected as God commands. You can read about my spiritual pilgrimage in this respect by accessing a parable I wrote a few years ago; Her is the link: "A Stigmata Case in Loma Linda" http://sdaforum.com/page38.html

C. The Adventist Cooperation with the Nazi Regime. Evidently you are unawares that recently the German and Austrian Adventist leaders did issue a public apology dealing with the Adventist cooperation with the Nazi regime. This was published in the Adventist Review. I am surprised that you haven’t heard about this, and now you are trying to use this fact against me. Here is the link: “A corporate Apology by the SDA Church” http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92 .

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

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lol

Don't you ever do ANYTHING original?