Conditional Forgiveness

[pnattmbtc]

Whether you or Waggoner realize it or not, to me he is not only talking about justification but also sanctification.

[pnattmbtc]

This is what is wrong with Traditional, historic Adventism.

What Waggoner taught is not "tradition, historic Adventism." Indeed, even today, those who identify themselves as "historic Adventists" do not teach what Waggoner taught. If you say "this is what is wrong with Traditional, historic Adventism," in response to the cited quoted of Waggoner's, you are either confusing Waggoner's teachings, or the teachings of "traditional, historic Adventism."

[Gerr]

Quote:

As Waggoner explains, to "justify" is from the Latin, which means "to make just." As he explains, God makes a person just when the person believes by declaring the person just. The power of His word does that which He speaks. He declares the person just, which simultaneously makes the person just. This is "justification."

But the NT was not written in Latin. The Greek dikaioo is rendered: 1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. 3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G1344). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

It is NOT "to make righteous".

[pnattmbtc]

"to render righteous" or "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous" is just what Waggoner said. "To render righteous" means "to make righteous" and "to show oneself righteous" is what Waggoner said. That is, Waggoner said:

Quote:

To justify means to make righteous or to show one to be righteous.

which is just what you quoted above for dikaioo.

[pnattmbtc]

More Waggoner, on the idea we've been discussing:

Quote:

Righteousness Declared. To declare righteousness is to speak righteousness. God speaks righteousness to man, and then he is righteous. The method is the same as in the creation in the beginning. "He spake, and it was." "We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:10.

God's Justice in Redemption. Christ is set forth to declare God's righteousness for the remission of sins, in order that he might be just and at the same time the justifier of him who believes in Jesus. God justifies sinners, for they are the only ones who need justification. The justice of declaring a sinner to be righteous lies in the fact that he is actually made righteous. Whatever God declares to be so, is so. And then he is made righteous by the life of God given him in Christ. (Waggoner on Romans, chapter 3)

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

so we dare not try to make any other application than the one Christ made, right?

I don't know what kind of application you are talking about, but what the parable tells me is that because the Father forgives us AS we are forgiven(?), and since the unforgiving servant did not forgive as he was forgiven, therefore he was not forgiven after all.

[/quote']thats too bad. i will have to leave you on, what looks to me like, quicksand.

i have to agree with ellen white on this, for example

Quote:

If your brethren have erred, you must forgive them. You should not say, as some have said who ought to know better: "I do not think they feel humble enough. I do not think they feel their confession." What right have you to judge them, as if you could read the heart? The word of God says: "If he repent, forgive him, And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." And not only seven times, but seventy times seven should you forgive him, just as often as Christ forgives you. {ST, February 14, 1895 par. 2}

God has freely forgiven our sins, not asking us to render any equivalent. The Lord has given us this example in order that men may see how they should treat their fellowmen. As God for Christ's sake has forgiven your sins, you should forgive your brethren who trespass against you. If you are an overcomer at last, it will not be because of your own righteousness, but because of the righteousness of Christ, because of the long forbearance, mercy, and forgiveness of God. The lesson that Jesus would impress upon his disciples is that those who profess his name should not cherish a revengeful spirit, or do an unkind action. The whole work of Christ had a tendency to counteract the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees, who encouraged revenge and retaliation. {ST, February 14, 1895 par. 3}

Quote:

Again, I refer to the Ezek passage & the Heb passage I quoted. Or are you of the opinion that an apostate is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER apostasy?

irrelevant to the question i asked and which we are discussing at the moment. :)

[pnattmbtc]

teresa, the following comes to mind:

Quote:

Satan will be judged by his own idea of justice. It was his plea that every sin should meet its punishment. If God remitted the punishment, he said, He was not a God of truth or justice. Satan will meet the judgment which he said God should exercise (MS 111, 1897).

[teresaq]

I agree with the sentiment of your statement, with the following caveat. The Good News is that justification by faith includes the cleaning up of the sinner the moment he is pronounced righteous. That is, God pronounces the sinner just, and makes Him just, because there is power in His word to accomplish that which He pronounces, and God cannot lie. The sinner is made just, or righteous, which is to say an obeyer of the law. This is what the 1888 messengers taught. Waggoner was especially clear about this.

Quote:

"Being Justified." In other words, being made righteous. To justify means to make righteous. God supplies just what the sinner lacks. Let no reader forget the simple meaning of justification. Some people have the idea that there is a much higher condition for the Christian to occupy than to be justified. That is to say, that there is a higher condition for one to occupy than to be clothed within and without with the righteousness of God. That can not be.(Waggoner on Romans, chapter 3)

this is difficult to understand, i believe, and can be a real stumblingblock...

it seems to be something we need to pray for understanding before "judging" whether it is true or not....

[teresaq]

teresa, the following comes to mind:

Quote:

Satan will be judged by his own idea of justice. It was his plea that every sin should meet its punishment. If God remitted the punishment, he said, He was not a God of truth or justice. Satan will meet the judgment which he said God should exercise (MS 111, 1897).

that is certainly thought provoking...

and that reminds me of

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

which means

Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

[pnattmbtc]

Paul's special term for that gift of divine righteousness is justification or making just, that is, the process whereby divinity makes humanity just...

Is (justification), we might ask Paul, simply God treating the world as if it were just? and to that question Paul would have used his favorite negative in the this letter (Romans): "By no means! For then how could God judge the world?"(3:6). Divine righteousness becomes human justification not by fictional imputation, but by factual transformation.

Recall, from earlier, Paul writing in 2 Corinthians, "And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, 1 are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another," (3:18) and, "If anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new" (2 Cor. 4:16; 5:17). That is transformation, not mere imputation. (From "In Search of Paul")

[Gerr]

Quicksand? For believing this?

Mt 18:

33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’

34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.

35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” ESV

And this?

Mt 6:

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ESV

And this?

1 Jn 4:20-21

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 Jn 3:14-15

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. ESV

{COL 250.3}

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 6:15. Nothing can justify an unforgiving spirit. He who is unmerciful toward others shows that he himself is not a partaker of God’s pardoning grace. In God’s forgiveness the heart of the erring one is drawn close to the great heart of Infinite Love. The tide of divine compassion flows into the sinner’s soul, and from him to the souls of others. The tenderness and mercy that Christ has revealed in His own precious life will be seen in those who become sharers of His grace. But "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Rom. 8:9. He is alienated from God, fitted only for eternal separation from Him.

White, E. G. (1900; 2002). Christ's Object Lessons (251). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

{COL 250.3}

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 6:15. Nothing can justify an unforgiving spirit. He who is unmerciful toward others shows that he himself is not a partaker of God’s pardoning grace. In God’s forgiveness the heart of the erring one is drawn close to the great heart of Infinite Love. The tide of divine compassion flows into the sinner’s soul, and from him to the souls of others. The tenderness and mercy that Christ has revealed in His own precious life will be seen in those who become sharers of His grace. But "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Rom. 8:9. He is alienated from God, fitted only for eternal separation from Him.

White, E. G. (1900; 2002). Christ's Object Lessons (251). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[karl]

Divine righteousness becomes human justification not by fictional imputation, but by factual transformation.

Recall, from earlier, Paul writing in 2 Corinthians, "And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, 1 are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another," (3:18) and, "If anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new" (2 Cor. 4:16; 5:17). That is transformation, not mere imputation. (From "In Search of Paul")

Powerful promises!

Let's believe them.

Even so, come Lord Jesus!

[Gerr]

PS

Teresa, again I ask: Is the apostate ONLY accountable for the sins he commits after his apostasy?

[pnattmbtc]

Quicksand? For believing this?

Mt 18:

33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’

34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.

35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” ESV

And this?

Mt 6:

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. ESV

And this?

1 Jn 4:20-21

If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 Jn 3:14-15

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. ESV

{COL 250.3}

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 6:15. Nothing can justify an unforgiving spirit. He who is unmerciful toward others shows that he himself is not a partaker of God’s pardoning grace. In God’s forgiveness the heart of the erring one is drawn close to the great heart of Infinite Love. The tide of divine compassion flows into the sinner’s soul, and from him to the souls of others. The tenderness and mercy that Christ has revealed in His own precious life will be seen in those who become sharers of His grace. But "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Rom. 8:9. He is alienated from God, fitted only for eternal separation from Him.

White, E. G. (1900; 2002). Christ's Object Lessons (251). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

{COL 250.3}

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 6:15. Nothing can justify an unforgiving spirit. He who is unmerciful toward others shows that he himself is not a partaker of God’s pardoning grace. In God’s forgiveness the heart of the erring one is drawn close to the great heart of Infinite Love. The tide of divine compassion flows into the sinner’s soul, and from him to the souls of others. The tenderness and mercy that Christ has revealed in His own precious life will be seen in those who become sharers of His grace. But "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Rom. 8:9. He is alienated from God, fitted only for eternal separation from Him.

White, E. G. (1900; 2002). Christ's Object Lessons (251). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

so we dare not try to make any other application than the one Christ made, right?

I don't know what kind of application you are talking about, but what the parable tells me is that because the Father forgives us AS we are forgiven, and since the unforgiving servant did not forgive as he was forgiven, therefore he was not forgiven after all.

Again, I refer to the Ezek passage & the Heb passage I quoted. Or are you of the opinion that an apostate is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER apostasy?

[/quote']

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I don't know what kind of application you are talking about, but what the parable tells me is that because the Father forgives us AS we are forgiven(?), and since the unforgiving servant did not forgive as he was forgiven, therefore he was not forgiven after all.

[/quote']thats too bad. i will have to leave you on, what looks to me like, quicksand.

i have to agree with ellen white on this, for example

Quote:

If your brethren have erred, you must forgive them. You should not say, as some have said who ought to know better: "I do not think they feel humble enough. I do not think they feel their confession." What right have you to judge them, as if you could read the heart? The word of God says: "If he repent, forgive him, And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." And not only seven times, but seventy times seven should you forgive him, just as often as Christ forgives you. {ST, February 14, 1895 par. 2}

God has freely forgiven our sins, not asking us to render any equivalent. The Lord has given us this example in order that men may see how they should treat their fellowmen. As God for Christ's sake has forgiven your sins, you should forgive your brethren who trespass against you. If you are an overcomer at last, it will not be because of your own righteousness, but because of the righteousness of Christ, because of the long forbearance, mercy, and forgiveness of God. The lesson that Jesus would impress upon his disciples is that those who profess his name should not cherish a revengeful spirit, or do an unkind action. The whole work of Christ had a tendency to counteract the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees, who encouraged revenge and retaliation. {ST, February 14, 1895 par. 3}

Quote:

Again, I refer to the Ezek passage & the Heb passage I quoted. Or are you of the opinion that an apostate is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER apostasy?

irrelevant to the question i asked and which we are discussing at the moment.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Teresa, again I ask: Is the apostate ONLY accountable for the sins he commits after his apostasy?

how would my agreeing, or disagreeing, prove that the parable

Quote:

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

teaches Gods "conditional" forgiveness?

[Gerr]

"to render righteous" or "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous" is just what Waggoner said. "To render righteous" means "to make righteous" and "to show oneself righteous" is what Waggoner said. That is, Waggoner said:

Quote:

To justify means to make righteous or to show one to be righteous.

which is just what you quoted above for dikaioo.

I could be wrong, but I believe most Protestant scholars hold the definition below rather than "to make righteous."

2. Δικαιόω is a denominative vb. from δίκαιος and means consider just or reasonable as well as judge, punish (Passow I, 688). This basic meaning in Greek usage appears in the NT only in a modified form, with the meaning of justify, represent as just, treat as just and esp. in Paul in the pass. with the meaning receive acquittal and in the act. pronounce righteous or acquit (BAGD ad loc.

Balz, H. R., & Schneider, G. (1990-c1993). Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Exegetisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament. (1:331). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans.

It must be clearly understood that in the NT the verb dikaióō, to justify, never means to make anyone righteous or to do away with his violation of the law, by himself bearing the condemnation and the imposed sentence. In the NT, man in his fallen condition can never do anything in order to pay for his sinfulness and thus be liberated from the sentence of guilt that is upon him as it happens in the mundane world; i.e., when a guilty person has paid the penalty of a crime, he is free from condemnation.

In the NT, dikaióō in the act. voice means to recognize, to set forth as righteous, to declare righteous, to justify as a judicial act. This is clear from Luke 10:25 in which a lawyer who came to Jesus asked Him how he could inherit eternal life. “Willing to justify himself” (Luke 10:29) means that he wanted to establish himself as righteous. So also the Pharisees to whom the Lord said in Luke 16:15, “Ye are they which justify yourselves before men,” i.e., you have set yourselves forth as righteous, as if there is nothing wrong with you if you were to stand in a court of justice. Used in the same sense in Luke 7:29 stating that the people recognized that God acted justly in sending John the Baptist to preach repentance. This was an indirect recognition that indeed man needed to repent.

Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.) (G1344). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

Be justified. Gr. dikaioō, “to set right,” “to regard as righteous,” “to declare righteous,” “to treat as being righteous,” “to present as righteous.” The word occurs 39 times in the NT, 27 of these being in the writings of Paul: The significance of dikaioō is somewhat obscured by the translation “to justify.” In the Greek dikaioō, “to justify,” dikaios, “righteous,” dikaiosunē, “righteousness,” are all built on the same root and the relationship between the three is clearly seen.

As used in the NT with reference to human beings, justification indicates the act by which a person is brought into a right state in relation to God. By this act God acquits a man who has been guilty of wrongdoing or treats as righteous someone who has been unrighteous. It means the cancellation of charges standing against the believer in the heavenly court. “If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous” (SC 62; see on chs. 3:28; 4:25; 5:1)

Nichol, F. D. (1978; 2002). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 6 (500). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

“Justify” (dikaioō) is a legal term, meaning “declare righteous” (not “make righteous”; cf. Deut. 25:1). See comments on Romans 1:17 on Paul’s frequent use of this verb and its related noun “righteousness.”

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:451). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

[WayneV]

Here's an analogy. Say a party has been wronged in a marriage. The offended party has a choice to make. One has the legal right to sue for divorce (I'm speaking of a legal right Biblically) or one can choose to forgive the offending party, allowing for reconciliation. However, even if the choice is made to forgive the offending party, the other party still must repent and accept that forgiveness in order for there to be a reconciliation.

pnat

I am not sure that Hosea, who was commanded to typify God's forgiveness by marrying Gomer, a prostitute, would agree with either your analogy or your assertions.

Agape`

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

"to render righteous" or "to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous" is just what Waggoner said. "To render righteous" means "to make righteous" and "to show oneself righteous" is what Waggoner said. That is, Waggoner said:

Quote:

To justify means to make righteous or to show one to be righteous.

which is just what you quoted above for dikaioo.

I could be wrong, but I believe most Protestant scholars hold the definition below rather than "to make righteous."

2. Δικαιόω is a denominative vb. from δίκαιος and means consider just or reasonable as well as judge, punish (Passow I, 688). This basic meaning in Greek usage appears in the NT only in a modified form, with the meaning of justify, represent as just, treat as just and esp. in Paul in the pass. with the meaning receive acquittal and in the act. pronounce righteous or acquit (BAGD ad loc.

Balz, H. R., & Schneider, G. (1990-c1993). Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament. Translation of: Exegetisches Worterbuch zum Neuen Testament. (1:331). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans.

It must be clearly understood that in the NT the verb dikaióō, to justify, never means to make anyone righteous or to do away with his violation of the law, by himself bearing the condemnation and the imposed sentence. In the NT, man in his fallen condition can never do anything in order to pay for his sinfulness and thus be liberated from the sentence of guilt that is upon him as it happens in the mundane world; i.e., when a guilty person has paid the penalty of a crime, he is free from condemnation.

In the NT, dikaióō in the act. voice means to recognize, to set forth as righteous, to declare righteous, to justify as a judicial act. This is clear from Luke 10:25 in which a lawyer who came to Jesus asked Him how he could inherit eternal life. “Willing to justify himself” (Luke 10:29) means that he wanted to establish himself as righteous. So also the Pharisees to whom the Lord said in Luke 16:15, “Ye are they which justify yourselves before men,” i.e., you have set yourselves forth as righteous, as if there is nothing wrong with you if you were to stand in a court of justice. Used in the same sense in Luke 7:29 stating that the people recognized that God acted justly in sending John the Baptist to preach repentance. This was an indirect recognition that indeed man needed to repent.

Zodhiates, S. (2000, c1992, c1993). The complete word study dictionary : New Testament (electronic ed.) (G1344). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

Be justified. Gr. dikaioō, “to set right,” “to regard as righteous,” “to declare righteous,” “to treat as being righteous,” “to present as righteous.” The word occurs 39 times in the NT, 27 of these being in the writings of Paul: The significance of dikaioō is somewhat obscured by the translation “to justify.” In the Greek dikaioō, “to justify,” dikaios, “righteous,” dikaiosunē, “righteousness,” are all built on the same root and the relationship between the three is clearly seen.

As used in the NT with reference to human beings, justification indicates the act by which a person is brought into a right state in relation to God. By this act God acquits a man who has been guilty of wrongdoing or treats as righteous someone who has been unrighteous. It means the cancellation of charges standing against the believer in the heavenly court. “If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous” (SC 62; see on chs. 3:28; 4:25; 5:1)

Nichol, F. D. (1978; 2002). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 6 (500). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

“Justify” (dikaioō) is a legal term, meaning “declare righteous” (not “make righteous”; cf. Deut. 25:1). See comments on Romans 1:17 on Paul’s frequent use of this verb and its related noun “righteousness.”

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (2:451). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

These are theological explanations, which argue the authors' conclusions. I quoted from the primary definitions you provided to show that Waggoner's explanation is viable. Waggoner's teachings on righteousness by faith was repeatedly and enthusiastically endorsed by a prophet, so has that going for it as well. As well as the arguments, upon inspection, being sound. And also is in harmony with the historical realities, as opposed to trying to back-fit a theology which wasn't developed until over a thousand years later.

Paul's teachings echoes that of Christ. Never do you see Christ suggest the idea of a legal fiction, of a justification which is simply declared. For example, when Jesus said of the publican, "This man went away justified," it's clear that the man's life had been touched in a tangible way. Always Christ taught a righteousness which had a tangible impact on the believer. Consider the Sermon on the Mount as a case in point.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a practical description of what happens when a person is justified by faith:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.(DA 175, 176)

One can see that simply being legally declared righteous isn't what's primarily happening here (indeed, it's not even mentioned).

[Gerr]

That's why I don't like getting stuck with just the court model in explaining the plan of salvation. Like any illustration, there is a point in which it breaks down, just like a parable. That's why I also said that both justification and sanctification take place simultaneously.

[Tom Wetmore]

...So what you are saying then is that the believer who falls away is only accountable for the sins he commits AFTER he falls away? May I ask you to reconcile what you quoted with:

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die." Eze 18:24 NIV

And the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Mt 18:21-35

Are sins blotted out as soon as forgiven?

What do I think? What I believe on this matter is not set in concrete, but until I am clearly shown otherwise, I tend to believe that all who fall away, those who have "once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying one again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt," would actually be more guilty and far more culpable than the one who never heard of the gospel. "To whom much is given, much is required." And the servant who knew his master's will but did not do it will receive the greater condemnation.

How much sin will result in loss of eternal life? Is unforgivingness a sin? Is "falling away" sin?

The penalty of sin is death. Do you want greater condemnation than a death sentence for the multiple offender? How much more dead than dead do you need to punish the one who commits much sin many times?

I think you are confusing what one might try to offer as a defense of their sin, their personal feeling of guilt or rationalizing excuses, with how God regards any sin.

Didn't just one sin get Adam and Eve kicked out of Eden?

Does the Judgment allow as a defense, "Well it was only my first sin"?

[Woody]

Good Points Tom.

There is no excuse for even the first sin. And just one sin will keep you from heaven. We can't get in the business of excusing ANY sin. That is dangerous ground. The Law DEMANDS perfect obedience to the Law.

And when Jesus came to the earth ... what did He do with the Law? He expanded it to include far more than what most thought was the Law. He made it so expansive that even the Jews could not keep it .

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Here's an analogy. Say a party has been wronged in a marriage. The offended party has a choice to make. One has the legal right to sue for divorce (I'm speaking of a legal right Biblically) or one can choose to forgive the offending party, allowing for reconciliation. However, even if the choice is made to forgive the offending party, the other party still must repent and accept that forgiveness in order for there to be a reconciliation.

pnat

I am not sure that Hosea, who was commanded to typify God's forgiveness by marrying Gomer, a prostitute, would agree with either your analogy or your assertions.

Agape`

how do you figure? didnt gomer have to accept hoseas forgiveness for there to be reconciliation? i mean, if she didnt accept it she would leave, so how would there be reconciliation? i may not have gotten my point across as well as i wish. :)

[teresaq]

Good Points Tom.

There is no excuse for even the first sin. And just one sin will keep you from heaven. We can't get in the business of excusing ANY sin. That is dangerous ground. The Law DEMANDS perfect obedience to the Law.

And when Jesus came to the earth ... what did He do with the Law? He expanded it to include far more than what most thought was the Law. He made it so expansive that even the Jews could not keep it .

nor teresa, try as i might. no matter how close i come i find it just became higher and deeper than i had thought before.

[Tom Wetmore]

... and that is why forgiveness is so important and essential to our salvation.

Without it we cannot survive. It is the very lifeblood of eternal life. And it is new life to all who share its life-giving properties.

Forgiveness is always good news, and that is the gospel truth.