Should Adventists own guns?

[Neil D]

Jesus instructed His disciples to carry weapons.

"instructed"...no, asked about weapons...yes...Context shows no intent to use it.. What's your problem with your faith?

If you rely on a gun, you are faithless in those situations where you are to be harmed. I suggest a rereading of Fox's Book of Martyrs and understand what those people went thru. And they had the weapons.....we call it prayer, kindness, compassion...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Jesus instructed His disciples to carry weapons.

"instructed"...no, asked about weapons...yes...Context shows no intent to use it.. What's your problem with your faith?

If you rely on a gun, you are faithless in those situations where you are to be harmed. I suggest a rereading of Fox's Book of Martyrs and understand what those people went thru. And they had the weapons.....we call it prayer, kindness, compassion...

Expect the best, but be prepared for the worst. That's the creed of wilderness survival experts. There are a lot of Adventists who carry guns in the northern area of Idaho where there are plenty of bears and cougars.

[Neil D]

"Expect the worst" in Adventists?

Maybe I should, since you guys bait Cosmin for his opinion, and then when he does give his opinion, you guys accuse him of being judgemental???

If this situation is par for Adventists, then this saying doesn't bode well for adventist in general...

Shame on you adventists who bait and then accuse of judging...You ruin relationships and friendships. You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists..

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

No...I said, "Expect the best, but be prepared for the worst."

I think Cosmin has a right to his opinion. In my experience, if you stray from out of the range of the normative standards of Adventism where you live, (or on a forum), you will be judged.

[Woody]

Quote:

"You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists.".

I hardly think this is the kind of language that this family friendly forum needs. We have to consider how this language will effect others. You may think this language to be fine. You may be used to the use of these words. But this does offend some. Being a moderator ... I am sure you must be aware of the need to not offend.

Please reconsider your choice of words.

"It is not given to any human being to judge between the different servants of God. The Lord alone is the judge of man's work, and He will give to each his just reward." (The Acts of the Apostles; ch 26; p.276)

[bonnie]

Quote:

Shame on you adventists who bait and then accuse of judging...You ruin relationships and friendships. You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists..

Not sure the status of the rest that have dared venture an opinion that disagrees with you,but my birth was legitimate.

Calling others "------"[ed. by moderator] seem such a strange word to be acceptable on a SDA forum and by one that is a moderator.

It is clear from this everyone should be able to use whatever language and whatever excuse to disagree with someone else.

Really not sure where gossipers comes into this but you have certainly clarified "self righteous" better than most have done

[bonnie]

"Expect the worst" in Adventists?

Maybe I should, since you guys bait Cosmin for his opinion, and then when he does give his opinion, you guys accuse him of being judgemental???

If this situation is par for Adventists, then this saying doesn't bode well for adventist in general...

Shame on you adventists who bait and then accuse of judging...You ruin relationships and friendships. You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists..

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.

And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with

– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.

Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

[Woody]

Quote:

"Shame on you adventists"

As an Adventist ... I am offended. I don't need your 'shame'.

[Woody]

Those who are most ready to excuse or justify themselves in sin are often most severe in judging and condemning others. There are many today, like Saul, bringing upon themselves the displeasure of God. They reject counsel and despise reproof. Even when convinced that the Lord is not with them, they refuse to see in themselves. . . the cause of their trouble. How many cherish a proud, boastful spirit, while they indulge in cruel judgment or severe rebuke of others really better in heart and life than they. Well would it be for such self-constituted judges to ponder those words of Christ: "With what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again" (ST Aug. 17, 1882). {2BC 1016.1}

But Christ puts his rebuke upon those who are criticising others, upon those who are self-sufficient, presumptuous, and censorious, judging the motives of others, and seeking to condemn them. This class give evidence that they are looking for failings in others, and these are what they will see and comment upon. They pass by many estimable qualities, to dwell upon and distort and magnify seeming inconsistencies. {ST, March 14, 1892 par. 1}

The practice of passing judgment upon others is common, indeed, it is almost universal, even among those who claim to be Christians. Many regard it as a mark of superior discernment to criticise the motives of others. But in the light of the Saviour's words it is a very serious thing thus to sit in judgment upon another. The wisdom displayed in discerning stains upon the character of others is that described by the apostle James, which "descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish." {ST, March 14, 1892 par. 2}

[bonnie]

Quote:

"You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists.".

I hardly think this is the kind of language that this family friendly forum needs. We have to consider how this language will effect others. You may think this language to be fine. You may be used to the use of these words. But this does offend some. Being a moderator ... I am sure you must be aware of the need to not offend.

Please reconsider your choice of words.

"It is not given to any human being to judge between the different servants of God. The Lord alone is the judge of man's work, and He will give to each his just reward." (The Acts of the Apostles; ch 26; p.276)

[GreatLakesGramma]

"Expect the worst" in Adventists?

Maybe I should, since you guys bait Cosmin for his opinion, and then when he does give his opinion, you guys accuse him of being judgemental???

If this situation is par for Adventists, then this saying doesn't bode well for adventist in general...

Shame on you adventists who bait and then accuse of judging...You ruin relationships and friendships. You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists..

[SivartM]

I really don't think we need guns to fight anyway. :)

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

"Expect the worst" in Adventists?

Maybe I should, since you guys bait Cosmin for his opinion, and then when he does give his opinion, you guys accuse him of being judgemental???

If this situation is par for Adventists, then this saying doesn't bode well for adventist in general...

Shame on you adventists who bait and then accuse of judging...You ruin relationships and friendships. You gossipers and self righteous and false Adventists ..

You are the only one being judgmental here, Neil. For your information, I did NOT accuse Cosmin of judging. He has twice expressed the opinion that gun ownership is in the same category as the use of alcohol, tobacco, and drugs:

[Neil D]

Red,

Is this your way of "judging me"?

You hide behind EGW words, and can not say them yourself? Isn't that a bit ....cowardly? We have see this type of behavior before in church boards and church meeting....This is a way of "shutting someone up"....

Well, what do you do with I and 2 Corinthians ? The bible takes 2 books and counsel us in leadership positions to judge the actions of others.

Since when are you in a leadership position here at ClubAdventist? Last time I checked, you are not a moderator nor an Administrative person here.

Since I am in a leadership position, I would counsel you to not hide behind the words of EGW. It's rude, cowardly, and just not Kosher to do that sort of thing.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

"Expect the worst" in Adventists?

Maybe I should, since you guys bait Cosmin for his opinion, and then when he does give his opinion, you guys accuse him of being judgemental???

If this situation is par for Adventists, then this saying doesn't bode well for adventist in general...

Shame on you adventists who bait and then accuse of judging...You ruin relationships and friendships. You gossipers and self righteous bastards..

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.

And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with

– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.

Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

Is this your way of reminding me not to judge others"...?

I would remind you that others here, ASKED a member their opinion, and then they judged his opinion as being unfair. We call this "baiting" in the internet jargon...Maybe you have heard it. It is rude, and unfair to people who trust others to foster a relationship. You, quite frankly, are siding on the wrong side of this issue.

You want me to do the right thing...Well, I stood up to you who bait people. I told you that you are violating the spirit of the board. And you get all upset over this....Well, EXCUSE ME for doing something right.

[John317]

ALEX

I dont own a gun myself....but I know 2 different

S.D.A. members of the church I attend that do have guns...

I really dont want to own a gun

dgrimm60

There should be no judgment against anyone for either owning or not owning a gun, as long as it is done legally and there is no intention to commit a crime with it.

There is plenty of biblical evidence to show that there is nothing wrong in self-defense if it is truly self-defense. Nor in defending the innocent, as for instance, one's family.

I think that whether people want to own a gun can have its roots in child-hood experiences. For example, if the parents owned guns and took the child on hunting trips or target practicing, the child will far more likely grow up owning a gun himself. While my parents didn't own guns or even use them, my brother-in-law did, and when I was 13 to 17, he would often take me out hunting or target practicing. At first I didn't like it, but after a short time I enjoyed it. I purposely avoided killing animals during that time, but I did very much enjoy the sport of target practicing.

When I went into the military, it was during the Vietnam war, and as a Conscientious Objector, I refused to train or carry a weapon. I had orders to go to Nam and took the "RVN training" in Texas. I and most of the other CO's in my graduating class decided we wouldn't carry a weapon in Vietnam. But some of them said that they would take weapons' training once they got to their posts in Nam. Still others said that they would only use a weapon if their positions were being overrun by VC and they had no choice except to use it in order to save their buddies. I thought that was a good plan, and it's probably what I would have done. I was willing to die rather than use a weapon but I didn't feel that I had the right to make that decision for my army buddies, so I would have shot the weapons to save them from certain death at the hands of an enemy who was overrunning our position.

Fortunately, however, my orders were changed at the last moment to a unit that was training in the desert. I didn't know it for the first 4 months but we were headed to Germany, where, of course, it was highly unlikely that I would ever come under fire. As it turned out, though, once I got to Germany I was attached to an airborne unit which was scheduled to drop into Jordan in order to rescue some Americans who had been taken hostage by Palestinians. I had the choice to take a weapon with me but I chose not to. While waiting for orders to leave, my fellow soldiers were talking about what they wanted to do to the Palestinians and I was trying to make them see that they shouldn't want to kill them. I was soon removed from that assignment because I was causing too much disturbance among the soldiers. The officers wanted the men to be "gung-ho" and I was making some of them have second thoughts.

The unit never did have to go over to Jordan because the American hostages were finally released unharmed.

I had a very godly mother who prayed for me all the time. I'm conviced that if she hadn't been praying for me, I would have been killed-- or killed someone else-- at some point in my teen years or early twenties. But that was before Christ came into my life and changed how I think and feel.

The upshot of all this is that I currently do own and enjoy shooting weapons, but I'm not obsessed with them and I don't hunt any more. I stopped a long time ago after I shot an owl but only wounded it and had to club it to death because I ran out of bullets. I can still see its wondering, frightened eyes looking up at me before I swung the rifle butt.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Well, Catherine...it came across as judgmental to this poster.

Why don't you try giving people the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically attributing the worst possible meaning to what they say? At the very least, it wouldn't have hurt you to ask for a clarification before you started slinging mud.

Most of the time when I come here, I have only a few minutes to check new posts and maybe post a quick comment or two. If I have to take the time to think a long time about everything I have to say, in order to choose the exact words and phrasing to eliminate having people like you misinterpreting what I said, which I have tried in the past, and found that it doesn't work, because no matter how much time I spend or how careful I try to be, someone always jumps on it anyway, then I don't have time for this forum. So I guess I'm done here.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Well, Catherine...it came across as judgmental to this poster.

Why don't you try giving people the benefit of the doubt instead of automatically attributing the worst possible meaning to what they say? At the very least, it wouldn't have hurt you to ask for a clarification before you started slinging mud.

This isn't about me, Catherine...It's about a young internet adventist who hasn't posted here of late since your comment. You would not have had me on your case if it hadn't come accros as an elder who was 'talking down' to a younger person.

Make it right, Catherine and I will be off your case....

And that goes for the rest of the people on this forum who insulted Cosmin. Come on, guys and gals. You don't bait someone by asking him is opinion and then when he does give it, you tell him he's being judgemental. It just ain't right.

[Liz]

Has anyone here read "A Thousand Shall Fall" by Susi Mundy? It is a true story about an Adventist family living in Germany when WWII breaks out, they draft the dad into the army. It talks about miracle after miracle both with the Dad and also with the Mom and kids on the home-front.

One of the miracles was that early on he had decided not to carry a gun, but he would have been shot had he told anyone or even been found without his weapon. So he made a wooden gun that fit inside his holster and threw his real gun into a lake. Out of his whole platoon, at the end of the war, only three people had not been wounded, the Dad, his commanding officer because he had made the Dad his personal protector, and one other person--I can't remember. Imagine his C.O.'s face when he realized that his "personal protector" was carrying a wooden gun--that had to have been priceless.

Anyways, this is a great book, and I thought I would put a plug in for it, because of the topic. Not meant to sway anyone one way or the other about gun ownership. Just plugging a book about how one man lived his convictions.

[SivartM]

That's one of my favorite books, Liz. :D

[bonnie]

Quote:

Is this your way of reminding me not to judge others"...?

I would remind you that others here, ASKED a member their opinion, and then they judged his opinion as being unfair. We call this "baiting" in the internet jargon...Maybe you have heard it. It is rude, and unfair to people who trust others to foster a relationship. You, quite frankly, are siding on the wrong side of this issue.

What is rude and unfair is to label others self righteous BASTARDS

because they say something or hold an opinion other than what you believe

Quote:

You want me to do the right thing...Well, I stood up to you who bait people. I told you that you are violating the spirit of the board. And you get all upset over this....Well, EXCUSE ME for doing something right.

Personally I couldn't care less whether you do the right thing or not.

My life won't change on iota based on your behavior.

No,wrong again,I am not the least upset. It is the double standard that is just amazing.

[oldsailor29]

Yeah, but Jesus was there to heal anyone they hurt.

Moral of the story: If you don't have Jesus with you (or if you don't have even the faith of a mustard seed) to heal those you hurt, then put down your weapons.

Jesus was there and He told them to buy weapons. The Holy Spirit is with us now, and will heal all wounds according to His will.

A stranger and I were walking away from a convenience store last night, and we saw coming toward us two people each with two guns. We passed each other and were thankful that nothing happened, and we went behind the next building and climbed up on the roof, all the while talking about what just happened, and about trying to stay safe. After we saw things were normal and seemed stable, we climbed down and continued talking. I was explaining my decision to buy a revolver, because they are ready to fire, whereas a semi-automatic has to have a bullet chambered before it is ready, and that was when I woke up.

[bonnie]

You resemble the "profile" of another that "claimed clean hands"

You personally are far to christian to defend yourself with a gun but if given the opportunity,would bring others that might do it for you.The below says the reason you would not have a gun for self defense is you may harm yourself or someone innocent. But it is alright for those less than yourself

Quote:

Yes, I would call 911, knowing full well that those coming with weapons have much better training under various circumstances than me, in my excited state, who would either wound himself or actually kill someone, other than the one intended.

I know myself enough to know that those outcomes are very possible. I trust angels to know how to take care of me, and sometimes that does NOT involve the use of guns.

If in fact you trusted the angels to take care of you,you would not be calling 911.

Quote:

But you do what you will, Bonnie...Whatever feels good to you...

Sometimes you seem to confuse your role of moderator with being spokesman for the SDA church.

With or without your blessing I will continue to do what I believe is right. Owning a gun is a personal decision,not one based on your convuluted "I trust God,but will ask others to do what I myself think is wrong"

[Stan]

should have a contest,

Who is the most toxic poster?

[bonnie]

should have a contest,

Who is the most toxic poster?

So far there is only one that calls others "self righteous bastards with the blessing of administration and claiming the right to do that in his role as moderator.

I don't remember responding to cosmin but GLG is far from a self righteous bastard.She is plain spoken but does not try to hurt or offend.

But we have the word and the "clout" of the moderator claiming she is a gossipy-self righteous bastard