What I Learned About Abortion & the Adventist Church

[Nic Samojluk]

You are concerned about the life of the unborn, unwanted, & uninvited, how about the victim of rape? How about the 13 or 14 yo impregnated by a close kin? You want to ruin her life too? Or would you rather sacrifice the mother to save the unborn?

I am concerned about both victims. Rape is a terrible crime, but murder is even a worse criminal act. I posted a portion of a document called “Didache,” which represents the teachings of the Apostles. In this document the apostles referred to abortion as murder.

When society or parents induce the girl to seek an abortion, the girl becomes a victim of a second violation, a violation with the instruments of the abortionists. She was first violated by the rapist, and now she is violated by the abortionist.

An abortion does not unrape the victim and the memory of having killed her own baby is something which will haunt her for the rest of her life. Is this what you want for the innocent girl?

[GreatLakesGramma]

A 13 or 14 year victim of incest already has had her life ruined.

[teresaq]

The best way of handling the issue of abortion is to do what the Christian Church did for two thousand years. The Church condemned the killing of the unborn. Have you read the Didache which contains the teaching of the apostles? Notice the use of the adjective "murder" in connection with abortion.

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You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

This teaching was inherited by the Catholic Church, and Rome has never deviated from this teaching of the Apostles. ..

[Gerr]

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2. I am not aware that abortion was even an issue with our pioneers. I found no reference at all in the writings of EGW. Could you provide some references? And BTW, many of our early pioneers did not believe in the Trinity, should we go back to their lead?

1) No Gerry, I didn't read all of your posts in this thread but I'm familar with what Nic believes and was responding to your assertion (which you didn't respond to)

If you have not read all my posts, then perhaps you missed my response? I have been trying to refute as many of his statements that I disagree with as I could. Which one did I miss?

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Biblical boundries when he presents his position as the biblical one. I asked you what IS the biblical position? And why is Nic out of line?

I suggest we you go over the thread carefully because that is what I have been trying to show. I hate to keep repeating myself.

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2) Yes, abortion WAS an issue with our founders, and while it is true the EGW didn't directly address it in her writings,James White, J.N.Andrews, Uriah Smith, J.H.Kellogg, and Kate Lindsey did. Since EGW never criticized their publicly open condemnations of abortion, on what basis do you believe that Nic's parallel expression is different?

I have access to all the writings of EGW. I have not seen one reference to abortion. Surely, if the issue is as cut and dry as Nic seems to indicate that it would have been covered in her voluminous work? And You drop some names but I have not yet seen any references. And as I have already indicated, our early pioneers had some theological views that we don't hold today, should we go back to them?

[Nic Samojluk]

And when you say "life", what exactly do you mean? A mere existence? What kind of "life" does a severely retarded have in an institution unwanted and unloved by its mother, and perhaps treated mostly indifferently by the institution employees?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And when you say "life", what exactly do you mean? A mere existence? What kind of "life" does a severely retarded have in an instution unwanted and unloved by its mother, and perhaps treated mostly indifferently by the institution employees?

I've also heard of cases where the expectant parents were told their child would be retarded or defective, but refused to consider abortion, and when the child was born, it was completely free of the predicted defect. I can't help but wonder how many normal, healthy babies have been aborted because of such erroneous predictions.

Very true. I have read several such cases. Thanks for bringing this up!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

[

There is nothing wrong with presenting life for the unborn as an option. But I believe you are overstepping Biblical bounds when you present YOUR view of anti-abortion in all cases as THE Biblical view.

Why do you believe that, Gerry? Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW. In addition, every historic prominent Christian expositor has presented the same view.What is THE biblical view that those who advocate this position are overstepping? Isn't this the same argument that is used against Adventists regarding Sabbath, once saved, always saved, IJ, Creation, homosexuality, ect...ect...? What biblical evidence do you offer from the Scriptures, history, or science that would validate your opposition to this view of the value of the unborn? What Scriptures indicate that the unborn is either not fully human, of a lesser human value, are simply in a different human category that has no inherent right to live?

Excellent questions!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry

You are concerned about the life of the unborn, unwanted, & uninvited, how about the victim of rape? How about the 13 or 14 yo impregnated by a close kin? You want to ruin her life too? Or would you rather sacrifice the mother to save the unborn?

I am concerned about both victims. Rape is a terrible crime, but murder is even a worse criminal act. I posted a portion of a document called “Didache,” which represents the teachings of the Apostles. In this document the apostles referred to abortion as murder.

You keep making assertions that aborting the product of rape is murder as though you are speaking ex cathedra (?) yet have not produced one logical or Biblical reason why such a pregnancy cannot be aborted?

1. That it is an intruder, an UNWELCOME/UNINVITED GUEST?

2. That you are calling a fertilized ovum a human. Again, I ask you, do you call a fertilized egg a chicken? Do you call an acorn an oak?

3. With your position, you are not only doing further damage to the victim of rape by making them feel guilt where there should be none, but want to take away their freedom to choose, impose your own will and compel them to carry something they might not want to do?

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When society or parents induce the girl to seek an abortion, the girl becomes a victim of a second violation, a violation with the instruments of the abortionists. She was first violated by the rapist, and now she is violated by the abortionist.

You're against instruments? What if we just used a pill?

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An abortion does not unrape the victim and the memory of having killed her own baby is something which will haunt her for the rest of her life. Is this what you want for the innocent girl?

Haunted only if people like you keep pounding it their heads that they are guilty of murder when it is not so. If a girl/woman is by conscience convicted not to abort such pregnancy, there is NOTHING in my position that mandates that such pregnancy be terminated, and not all parents nor all of society are inducing rape victims to do so.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Every one of our SDA founders presented the same exact view as Nic believing that it was THE BIBLICAL VIEW.

It is really hard to believe that our founders believed in the union of church and state to the point that Nic does.

You may need to read a little bit more about the views of the early Adventist pioneers. Are you aware of Ellen White views on our Adventist participation in the slavery and the prohibition movements? Look what Uriah Smith stated about our political views.

Uriah Smith

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You show me a church that fails to take a stand on political issues that involve moral principles, [6] and Ill show you a church that is spineless, irrelevant, and morally bankrupt. . . . No issue is too controversial for us to address and honestly in pages of our church paper.

http://sdaforum.com/page114.html

[Gerr]

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There is no neutrality in this controversy between good and evil. This was made very clear by Jesus Christ who stated:

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"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters. [Luke 11:23]

I admire your zeal for taking a stand when it comes to right and wrong. My beef with black and white thinkers is that they don't realize there are plenty of gray areas where the demarcation line between right and wrong varies with each individual. In such matters, let us not preempt the person's will or conscience.

[Gerr]

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Could you please provide a reference where I have undervalued the unborn?

I am still waiting for the reference.

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I am against Nic's absolutist position that all abortions are wrong. Examine God's own 10 commandments and you will see there are many exceptions!

First, Nic's absolutist position does NOT CONDEMN aLL ABORTIONS so it's not an absolutist position.In fact, I don't know of anyone who opposes elective abortion that doesn't empathize with the mother's choice if her life is in danger.Even Roe v. Wade overturned a law that allowed exceptions for the life threatening situation.

I am happy to see that Nic allows sacrificing the life of the unborn to save the mother. If this can be done, why then can this not be done in case of rape or for a genetic defect that we know results in severe retardation where no meaningful existence can be expected? I am not saying this should be mandated, but that the option should be available to the mother/parents/family.

[Dr. Shane]

The best way of handling the issue of abortion is to do what the Christian Church did for two thousand years.

Kill the heretics! Burn them at the stake.

I guess I am just too American to want to go back to the Dark Ages.

[Dr. Shane]

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You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

I don't have a problem with this religious teaching. However just because I believe something is a sin doesn't mean I believe we should appeal to the civil government to pass legislation enforcing our religious beliefs. The best way to reduce abortions is to allow them to be legal but restrict them. We see evidence of this in multiple countries and states.

I will add that I don't believe stealing is wrong in every circumstance. A starving man, willing to work that steals for his family has committed no sin. In much the same way, there are circumstances when it is not sinful to lie or to have an abortion. In Paradise we will never have to lie, steal or kill but in this sinful world sometimes circumstance mean that what would normally be a sin is the least of two evils. Lying to Nazis to save a hidden Jew was the least of two evils.

[Dr. Shane]

We breed the best plants and animals to get the healthiest and the best, why the objection when it comes to humans?

Now doctor, don't you think that is going a little too far? Christ clearly taught that humans are valued more than are the birds of the sky.

[doug yowell]

[

I admire your zeal for taking a stand when it comes to right and wrong. My beef with black and white thinkers is that they don't realize there are plenty of gray areas where the demarcation line between right and wrong varies with each individual. In such matters, let us not preempt the person's will or conscience.

Is your belief that black and white thinkers don't realize that there are grey areas a black and white truth or do you allow that maybe some actually think these grey areas through? Grey areas exist in every question of life so are you implying that there are no black and white answers, or are you applying it only to the areas that you find grey? You're beef is a slap in the face to a lot of very deep thinkers who differ with your conclusions.

[Gerr]

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First, Nic's absolutist position does NOT CONDEMN aLL ABORTIONS so it's not an absolutist position.In fact, I don't know of anyone who opposes elective abortion that doesn't empathize with the mother's choice if her life is in danger.

I could be wrong on this, but my understanding of the Catholic position which Nic claims has preserved the apostolic view on abortion is that they would prefer the fetus/baby to live when it comes to a choice between the mother and the baby.

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And your reference to the exceptions in the 10 Commandments I'm having a hard time locating.Can you give an example. I'm not understanding what you're meaning.

Read Mt 12, Mk 2 & Lk 6, where the black and white thinking Pharisees reproved Jesus for breaking the Sabbath commandment that prohibits work on that day.

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When we allow for the intentional killing of human beings that potentially will not function at full human capacity, we . declare that they have less human value than the fully functional ones. We put them in a different human category.When we put the unwanted human in that category we declare their value to be subjective to the whims of whoever decides to terminate them.Are you convinced that God looks at the deformed human being in this way?

If every union of a spermatozoon and an ovum = a human being as you espouse, let me remind you that there are probably thousands and thousands of of spontaneous abortions every year many if not most of which a woman many not even be aware of because it happens so early in pregnancy. That is usually due to a serious genetic defect. Some fall through nature's cracks and are born. Will God take them all to heaven? The Bible is silent, but I rather doubt it. Will God take to heaven the severely retarded who look human but have never had the capacity to know right from wrong? If you have Bible reference that God will do so, I'd like to see it, but I rather doubt it. Perhaps God will treat them "as though they have never been."

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

The best way of handling the issue of abortion is to do what the Christian Church did for two thousand years.

Kill the heretics! Burn them at the stake.

I guess I am just too American to want to go back to the Dark Ages.

Pay attention, Shane. 2000 years ago! Not the dark ages!!

[Dr. Shane]

You may need to read a little bit more about the views of the early Adventist pioneers.

Originally Posted By: Uriah Smith

You show me a church that fails to take a stand on political issues that involve moral principles, [6] and Ill show you a church that is spineless, irrelevant, and morally bankrupt... No issue is too controversial for us to address and honestly in pages of our church paper.

The Adventist church has taken an issue on abortion. Our position is that we are not going to lobby Congress to enforce our morality. Instead we are going to preach the love of Christ and pray that He wins hearts and minds.

[Dr. Shane]

Pay attention, Shane. 2000 years ago! Not the dark ages!!

I was paying attention. Nick said "FOR 2000" years. He did not say "2000 YEARS AGO". I was going to correct him and tell him it was 1,810 years - not 2,000, but I let that go.

[John317]

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GreatLakesGramma: A 13 or 14 year victim of incest already has had her life ruined.

Not necessarily, although you're probably right about most instances. It definitely does damage to them, but many of them do go on to live full, well-adjusted lives as adults. I know personally of at least two examples of girls (cousins) who were molested for years by their fathers (brothers), and after one of the dads spent time in jail for what he did, he now has a good relationship with his daughter, who is happily married and has children with her husband. One of the brothers never was punished for it because he and his wife denied it and so did the daughter when the state made inquiry.

Incest is a terribly common problem-- far more than most people would imagine-- and in my judgment it should be punished much more severely than it is. But many times it is covered up by both parents as well as by the child.

[Gerr]

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Is your belief that black and white thinkers don't realize that there are grey areas a black and white truth or do you allow that maybe some actually think these grey areas through? Grey areas exist in every question of life so are you implying that there are no black and white answers, or are you applying it only to the areas that you find grey? You're beef is a slap in the face to a lot of very deep thinkers who differ with your conclusions.

My apologies if I slapped anyone in the face. None such was intended. Black and white thinkers by definition as I understand it, tend to have very little room for grey areas.

I have no problem with people who disagree with my position, but I do have a grave problem with people who impose their views on others who may disagree or see it as a grey area where a person's conscience should be allowed to guide them.

Or do you think that people who disagree with you and Nic have not considered the problem deeply either?

[doug yowell]

[if every union of a spermatozoon and an ovum = a human being as you espouse, let me remind you that there are probably thousands and thousands of of spontaneous abortions every year many if not most of which a woman many not even be aware of because it happens so early in pregnancy. That is usually due to a serious genetic defect. Some fall through nature's cracks and are born. Will God take them all to heaven? The Bible is silent, but I rather doubt it. Will God take to heaven the severely retarded who look human but have never had the capacity to know right from wrong? If you have Bible reference that God will do so, I'd like to see it, but I rather doubt it. Perhaps God will treat them "as though they have never been."

You have described the effects of sin on the human genetic makeup very well. It, without any conscious decision on our part, destroys us both physically and spiritually.But Jesus spoke directly to the human participation in that process:"It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him thru whom they do come!"And what happens to both the unborn and the newborn at the second coming is irrelevent to how we are required to treat them today. "What is that to you? Feed my sheep." Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these..."

[John317]

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Nic Samojluk: You might have heard about Dr. Allred. His dream was to become a SDA minister; but later on he switched to medicine. He graduated from Loma Linda back in 1964 and built a chain of over twenty abortion clinics. He became a millionaire and eventually left the church....

Recently, he retired and sold his lucrative business to another Adventist. One day his daughters with their families perished in an airplane accident.

Is this the doctor:

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Most recently, Irving “Bud” Feldkamp, owner of the nation’s largest privately-owned abortion chain (17 family planning clinics) and member of the Adventist church made news. His two daughters, two sons-in-law and five grandchildren were killed in a Montana plane crash.

Source: http://arthurandteresabeem.blogspot.com/2009/05/ten-commandments-and-abortion.html

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

We breed the best plants and animals to get the healthiest and the best, why the objection when it comes to humans?

Now doctor, don't you think that is going a little too far? Christ clearly taught that humans are valued more than are the birds of the sky.

I would be going too far if I were to impose my views on society. But as I have already stated, severely retarded people or drug addicts or anyone, I might add, who would/could bring into the world children who would be a burden to society, should not have the right to reproduce and impose that burden on society.

Would you marry a girl that you know would have a very high probability of giving you severely handicapped children?

[Nic Samojluk]

I would also like to see where any of our sda pioneers believed in any kind of union of church and state....?