Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Sonny]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say by quoting the rest of Romans chapter nine.

You have to look at the whole chapter to understand it's meaning. Otherwise you get something like this:

Romans 9:18 So then He [God] has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

If you take this at face value you'll have huge problems. Why?

Go to Romans 3:21

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe

You see God has redeemed the whole world (the human race) in His Son. Yet not all will accept God's finished work. Why? Unbelief!

Now, if you believe that God forces the will (e.g., Pharaoh, etc.) then how do know if it is God's will for you to be saved? Maybe He hates you? Maybe He has assigned you to hell?

This idea that God forces human will also diminishes belief in the Scripture. Keep in mind Romans 3:22, which states that the righteousness of Christ is available to anyone who believes. But if God forces His will then that is no longer true. It's only available to those God has preordained.

Calvinism states that "God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those He has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen."

Here's my take: Calvinism is a hellish doctrine. Even better - it's Satanic.

Why even believe? It doesn't matter! You can believe all you want, but if God hasn't chosen you it doesn't matter. Hence the assurance of salvation goes out the window. This doctrine makes God both a sinner & a hypocrite. Why?

Go to James 2:8

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

You see if God plays favorites then why even believe? He can do as He pleases. He can sin & it's not sin. Such a God is not my God. Those attributes belong to the god of this world, not my Lord & Savior.

[Overaged]

Overaged,

That is hilarious!

LOL, yes, it is a bit funny. It's my abstract way of pointing out that the way we so often tend to talk about God just makes Him out to be a real crack-pot.

[miz3]

Sonny,

I quoted Romans chapter nine NOT TO ENDORSE "CALVINISM"!

I quoted Romans chapter nine to demonstrate that God rules by fiat. That is also Paul's point as well. SDA don't like Romans chapter nine because:

1. Their correct revulsion for Calvinism.

2. Paul in this chapter proves that God rules by fiat. SDA want a more "soft" "humane" (code for more human) God because they believe a God who rules by fiat is a "cruel" despot. However that may be true of human rulers it is not true of God.

The reason to use Romans chapter nine to demonstrate that God does indeed rule by fiat is because God actually does rule by fiat.

It also demonstrates that the Plan of Salvation is carried out by God by fiat in order for God to demonstrate His greatness in everything about everything. The plan of Salvation demonstrates God's infinite Mercy, His infinite Love, His infinite Grace, His infinite Goodness all of which God does by fiat.

We are only the recipients of all those good things by God's ruling everything by FIAT!

This is a hard Doctrine for most humans because the human spirit is so self-centered that it rebels at being left out of anything. In fact the self-centered human entity wants to be the CENTRAL THEME OF THE PLAN OF SALVATION! Thus, cutting God out and making God an "understudy" or "second banana" to our human "lead" role.

This is the major reason why humans in general want to "neuter" Romans chapter nine because it lays the human arrogance in the dust! Our sinful nature absolutely hates this and rebels violently against this Truth.

Thus, anyone pointing to Romans chapter nine is immediately labelled a "Calvinist" and ridiculed incessantly. The hope is to drive them away from ever quoting or even referring in any way shape of form to this Chapter.

The other tactic is to try and use the "whole context" thing while using what we think are more benign ways of view and describing God and His Ways.

I reject your references to Calvinism because Calvinism is not any where near what I am saying. Trying to tarnish the clear expressed Word of God in Romans chapter nine as advocating Calvinism is an insult to what God is saying, and to what Paul is saying. What Paul is saying is exactly what I am saying.

The Principle is God rules and operates by fiat.

Quote:

As such in the Plan of Salvation:

1. God declared that Adam and all humans were guilty of Adam's sin. By Fiat!

2. As guilty ones they would receive God's Wrath which is eternal death. By Fiat!

3. God placed Adam's sin and also our guilt on Jesus Christ on the Cross. By Fiat!

4. God vented His Wrath on Jesus Christ. By Fiat!

5. All humans (Romans chapter 5) were not only declared but were actually made Just (Justification) by God because His Wrath for Adam's sin and ours was taken care of by Jesus Christ. By Fiat!

6. God takes ownership of all humans and sends the Holy Spirit to clean up all their sinful nature and internal darkness. By Fiat! (you are not your own you have been bought with a price text). By Fiat!

7. Either the Holy Spirit works and the person continues to be rehabbed or the human REJECTS not only God's Justification but REJECTS the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (sin against the Holy Spirit). God either continues to rule by Fiat or by Fiat leaves the person to rot in hell. (very little of the human and a whole lot of God!)

Those seven points are NOT CALVINISM! It is not even close.

However those seven points are TRUE and are Biblical!

[teresaq]

You have to look at the whole chapter to understand it's meaning. Otherwise you get something like this:

Romans 9:18 So then He [God] has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

If you take this at face value you'll have huge problems. Why?

Go to Romans 3:21

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe

You see God has redeemed the whole world (the human race) in His Son. Yet not all will accept God's finished work. Why? Unbelief!

Now, if you believe that God forces the will (e.g., Pharaoh, etc.) then how do know if it is God's will for you to be saved? Maybe He hates you? Maybe He has assigned you to hell?

This idea that God forces human will also diminishes belief in the Scripture. Keep in mind Romans 3:22, which states that the righteousness of Christ is available to anyone who believes. But if God forces His will then that is no longer true. It's only available to those God has preordained.

Calvinism states that "God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those He has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen."

Here's my take: Calvinism is a hellish doctrine. Even better - it's Satanic.

Why even believe? It doesn't matter! You can believe all you want, but if God hasn't chosen you it doesn't matter. Hence the assurance of salvation goes out the window. This doctrine makes God both a sinner & a hypocrite. Why?

Go to James 2:8

If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

You see if God plays favorites then why even believe? He can do as He pleases. He can sin & it's not sin. Such a God is not my God. Those attributes belong to the god of this world, not my Lord & Savior.

Wow! Great thoughts, Sonny. Very well put. Thank you. :)

[teresaq]

...The Principle is God rules and operates by fiat.

Quote:

As such in the Plan of Salvation:

1. God declared that Adam and all humans were guilty of Adam's sin. By Fiat!

2. As guilty ones they would receive God's Wrath which is eternal death. By Fiat!

3. God placed Adam's sin and also our guilt on Jesus Christ on the Cross. By Fiat!

4. God vented His Wrath on Jesus Christ. By Fiat!

5. All humans (Romans chapter 5) were not only declared but were actually made Just (Justification) by God because His Wrath for Adam's sin and ours was taken care of by Jesus Christ. By Fiat!

6. God takes ownership of all humans and sends the Holy Spirit to clean up all their sinful nature and internal darkness. By Fiat! (you are not your own you have been bought with a price text). By Fiat!

7. Either the Holy Spirit works and the person continues to be rehabbed or the human REJECTS not only God's Justification but REJECTS the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (sin against the Holy Spirit). God either continues to rule by Fiat or by Fiat leaves the person to rot in hell. (very little of the human and a whole lot of God!)

Those seven points are NOT CALVINISM! It is not even close.

However those seven points are TRUE and are Biblical!

I believe it is more accurate to say that you believe those 7 points to be "TRUE and are Biblical", while others, such as myself do not believe that is what the bible is saying.

Touching on just a few of your beliefs,

Point 1. God didn't have to declare Adam guilty by fiat because Adam was guilty. As for Adam's progeny, we inherited that fallen nature which would lead us to prefer sin over righteousness. Nothing arbitrary in that, its just "cause and effect".

Point 2. I see eternal death as the result of sin. God's wrath equals letting us suffer the consequences of resisting and rejecting His HS which is sent to convict us. We become hardened and end up self-destructing, one way or another.

Point 4. What exactly did God Himself do to Jesus at any time that could be construed as "venting His wrath".

[miz3]

Romans 9:18 So then He [God] has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

If you take this at face value you'll have huge problems.

The Bible intends for us to this text at "face value".

[miz3]

Now, if you believe that God forces the will

I never said that God forces the "human will". You are assuming I am saying that just like you are assuming that I was preaching "Calvinism" which I am NOT!

[miz3]

Point 1. God didn't have to declare Adam guilty by fiat because Adam was guilty. As for Adam's progeny, we inherited that fallen nature which would lead us to prefer sin over righteousness. Nothing arbitrary in that, its just "cause and effect".

First, in regard to Adam, I should have left him out. Your point is well taken.

Second, no law exists "NATURALLY" that would make the child of a sinner also a sinner. The child of a murderer is not automatically also a murderer and is not naturally guilty of murder.

Third, it was God who "BY FIAT" instituted that the guilt of Adam would be passed on to his children.

Fourth, this is very arbitrary.

Fifth, even if we were to take your position, who made the "law of cause and effect"......Hmmm!.......THAT'S RIGHT IT WOULD BE GOD BY FIAT!

GOD MADE ALL THE LAWS BY FIAT!

[miz3]

Point 2. I see eternal death as the result of sin. God's wrath equals letting us suffer the consequences of resisting and rejecting His HS which is sent to convict us. We become hardened and end up self-destructing, one way or another.

You really need to read the Book of Revelation where it clearly states that God is venting His Wrath. It is all over the Revelation.

Your position is what I was talking about. Most Christians including SDA don't like the God of the OT and also of Revelation because He appears to most people as "blood thirsty". Your position as stated above is an attempt to "soften" and "modify" that view of God so we can then emphasize the texts that make God look more "loving" and "kind".

You see the Bible actually displays both extreme sides of God. God is both infinitely Love and God is also infinitely Wrath!

The Bible is extremely clear in both the OT and the NT that God is Wrath and extremely Angry. The "language" in the Bible is sometimes very graphic and extremely vicious in places.

I think the Bible makes you wrong on this point also.

[miz3]

Point 4. What exactly did God Himself do to Jesus at any time that could be construed as "venting His wrath".

Jesus clearly in great pain and stress (not physical) within His very core cried out "Father why have you forsaken me".

I do believe God vented His Wrath on Jesus Christ because God hates sin and as the Bible states Jesus Christ became "sin for us".

Apparently you have not read the Bible enough to know that God does get extremely angry at "sin" and does indeed vent His Wrath on sin!

I don't think Jesus Christ died with God doing "nothing" but being a spectator.

[miz3]

teresaq(sda),

It is indeed accurate to state that my "seven points" are Biblical!

The Bible says what it says and it is quite clear.

[Overaged]

I love Romans 9! But then; I am not an SDA; I am a Seventh-day Adventist.

[miz3]

That's another good one, overaged!

SDA = Some Dumb Aliens!

[Overaged]

That's another good one, overaged!

SDA = Some Dumb Aliens!

Now wait a minute. I didn't say that.

What I did say was for the purpose of noting that the General Conference discourages calling us "SDA" and encourages people to use our official abbreviation, which is "Adventist."

[miz3]

OK, overaged!

I shouldn't have tried to be funny! Its just that "SDA" is so much easier than typing Seventh-day Adventist. Technically you are correct.

Maybe I can get a special dispensation to be lazy and continue to use SDA for the longer name.

We SDA (I mean Seventh-day Adventists) do give "dispensations" don't we?

[Overaged]

OK, overaged!

I shouldn't have tried to be funny! Its just that "SDA" is so much easier than typing Seventh-day Adventist. Technically you are correct.

Maybe I can get a special dispensation to be lazy and continue to use SDA for the longer name.

We SDA (I mean Seventh-day Adventists) do give "dispensations" don't we?

I will grant you your dispensation

[miz3]

Whew! Now can avoid that embarrassing confessional!

[Overaged]

Whew! Now can avoid that embarrassing confessional!

Well; sorry. All of my confessional booths are full of other Adventists in dire need. You will have to line up.

[miz3]

OK, Pope overaged the First!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Romans 9:18 So then He [God] has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

If you take this at face value you'll have huge problems.

The Bible intends for us to this text at "face value".

I was referring to a single verse, i.e., Roman 9:18. You have to look at the immediate context. Otherwise you come up with strange ideas, like you have, miz3.

[Overaged]

Romans 9:18 So then He [God] has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

If you take this at face value you'll have huge problems/quote]

The Bible intends for us to this text at "face value". /quote]

I was referring to a single verse, i.e., Roman 9:18. You have to look at the immediate context. Otherwise you come up with strange ideas, like you have, miz3.

The "single verse" is not how the Word is to be exegeted:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

[Twilight II]

Q) Did Christ suffer the punishment for the "known sin" and "unknown sin" of the human race?

A) Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Christ took away the sin of the world.

Q) Do we have sin in us by nature?

A) Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Yes we have sin dwelling in us.

Q) Can that sin go to heaven, the sin that dwells in our flesh?

A) No.

Q) So does that sin need dealing with, that sinful nature itself?

A) Yes.

Q) What is the only solution for sin?

A) The lamb...

Our sinful "nature" (our spiritual and moral nature) was crucified on the cross in Christ, not only our sinful "deeds".

And we are given a new nature through the work of the Holy Spirit.

To be born again, first we have to die and then we have to receive the new life that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit provides.

Something has to die.

Something has to be born again.

Jesus was born "born again".

He had the physical human body of post Adam.

But had the spiritual and moral nature of God, which Adam also shared before his fall.

Jesus had "no sin in Him".

He did not have a fallen spiritual nature.

He did not have the experience of Romans 7:14-25.

He had the experience of Rom 8.

[Twilight II]

I know I am jumping in late, so apologies. :-)

[Twilight II]

And at the heart of Jesus coming to earth with Gods moral and spiritual nature, is victory.

Many SDA's are trying to find victory "in the flesh" or as Paul puts it "by the works of the law".

They try to weave their character into Christs likeness.

Not realising the weave is a gift from heaven and they cannot "replicate" that gift.

So they then "assume" that Christ gained His righteousness the same way as they are attempting to do (and failing).

Because they do not understand how victory comes by faith (rather than gritting ones own teeth), they cannot accept that Christ did not come with a fallen moral nature.

When we are Born Again, we are given the Holy Spirit, that sets to work on producing that new moral nature in us.

As we co-operate with Him, we are changed from glory to glory (character to character).

Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the very best one can hope to attain to is "phariseeism".

And one consequence of that, is a misunderstanding of a Christ's moral and spiritual nature.

[Sonny]

Our sinful "nature" (our spiritual and moral nature) was crucified on the cross in Christ, not only our sinful "deeds".

1] Sinful deeds can't be crucified. Acts aren't tangible things.

2] Yes, we have sinful natures, but not spiritual/moral natures. So no moral nature was crucified.

3] Here's what Paul said: "We know that our old self [our humanity from Adam] was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed...

Our humanity - all of it - had to die. The whole body has been corrupted by iniquity. It's in every fiber of our fallen humanity. Nothing was redeemable.

Here's more proof: Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and on account of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

The flesh is our humanity. Where's sin? In the flesh...in our humanity. So the whole body had to go....