Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[John317]

It's true that there is no direct command by God in the Bible for Gentiles to keep the weekly Sabbath. However, there are good reasons for this.

Would you tell a non-Christian-- someone who knows nothing about God or Christ-- to keep Sunday?

Would you agree that there would be no purpose in "commanding" or telling someone who doesn't know God to keep the Sabbath?

That's because Sabbath-keeping only has meaning if the person is first in a covenant relationship with the Creator.

See Isaiah 56: 1-7, where God gives the same invitation to keep the Sabbath to non-Jews as to Jews.

God wouldn't have invited Gentiles to keep the Sabbath and promised them the very same blessings, if He only intended the Sabbath to be for Jews.

I believe all the evidence shows that the reason there's no direct command by God for all Gentiles to keep the Sabbath is that Sabbath-keeping only has meaning within the context of a covenant relationship with God.

We should therefore not expect to find God commanding people who know nothing of Him to keep the Sabbath.

The bottom line, though, is that we find the New Testament church, including both Jews and Gentiles, keeping the weekly Sabbath.

[Gerr]

Cont'd.

ESV | ‎Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— ‎12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ‎13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ‎14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

ESV | ‎Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. ‎19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ‎29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

It is inconceivable to me, Jawge, that after Paul went through great lengths to emphasize the oneness of true believers that anyone would then proceed to make distinctions between Jew & Gentile. How then could you say there is ONE God, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Head, ONE Savior, ONE gospel, ONE citizenship, ONE household, ONE body, ONE Mediator, ONE Law, and then proceed to say that Jews & Jewish Christians keep a 10c law and Gentiles only 9?

[Gerr]

Some of US wrote posts that were rather heated.

I can honestly say, Jawge, that there was not a moment where you have raised my hackles. Too many years on this forum have thickened my skin.

Originally Posted By: Jawge

For you “grass eaters”, one of the benefits of reviewing topics by doctrinally off kilter wackos like me is to provide you with alternate views or reviews of theology.

Having been raised in the Catholic faith, I have had some exposure to alternative views. And having been in this forum for over a decade, I have encountered just about every alternative view about the Sabbath & the 10c. You may not realize it or it may not be readily apparent, but some of us actually welcome the likes of you. #1, it livens up the forum discussion, #2. it gives us opportunities to see whether we are standing on solid ground or quicksand.

[John317]

I second everything you say there, Gerry. You express my sentiments exactly. We enjoy your presence, Jawge.

[Gerr]

2. Keeping the Sabbath, as well as the other ritual Jewish Laws of The Torah, is not a mandate for Christians or other Gentiles, and was not mandated for Israel until their encounter with God at Sinai (Horeb).

When you see a sign in the hospital, Jawge, "WET FLOOR", or "WET PAINT", what does it mean to you? So when God rested on the Sabbath, and then put up a sign on it which says, "HOLY", "SANCTIFIED/SET APART", "HALLOWED TIME", "DEDICATED TIME", "TABOO", do these signs mean anything?

Originally Posted By: Jawge

3. Christians are not under the Law, but Christians are required to walk in The Spirit, which status does not permit murder, lying, lack of integrity in any relationship, sexual immorality, or theft. Contrary to what some may think, Christians do not have a license to sin, even if they do not consider themselves “under the Law”.

I am a little confused about what you are saying. You say, "Christians are not under Law," but then proceed to say that when we walk in Spirit, we are not to murder, which is keeping the 6th commandment. We are not under law, but then you say we are not to lie, which is keeping the 9th commandment. We are not under law, but we are not commit sexual immorality, which is keeping the 7th commandment, etc. If Christians do not have a license to sin, i.e. to break the law, what is that saying? That means that Christians are to keep the law!!! They keep the law, not in order to be saved, but because they have been saved! They do it out of love because breaking law is what killed the Son of God, and it is the very thing that kills and brings grief to our fellowman. Unsaved people have their minds set on the flesh. They are "hostile to God," and do "not submit to God's law." Rom 8:7.

Originally Posted By: Jawge

4. Spiritually proscribed behavior for we who walk in The Spirit is listed repeatedly throughout the New Testament. No passage in those New Testament lists of proscribed behavior even mentions keeping the Sabbath, even when Jesus provides the list. (See Matthew 19: 16 - 21, and other passages.)

Sabbath-breaking was certainly proscribed in the OT. It was one of the reasons given for the captivity. For that reason, the Jews piled up all kinds of man-made laws that they thought would make it impossible to break the Sabbath. By NT times, Jesus had to deal with not Sabbath-breaking, but rather with the man-made strictures that made the Sabbath no longer the delight that God meant to be, but rather a total burden.

God set the Sabbath apart as a Sanctuary in time, when believers can lay aside all the cares of the world and meet with their Creator in a very special time. Resting on the Sabbath is acknowledging that God is THE Creator in a world that believes in evolution. Resting on the Sabbath is an open declaration that man cannot save himself - only God can make him holy again. So I invite you, Jawge, to consider it and experience the blessings God intended it to be.

[JawgeFromJawja]

It's true that there is no direct command by God in the Bible for Gentiles to keep the weekly Sabbath. However, there are good reasons for this.

John, it is so much easier and neater when a quote is complex to use a combination of copy that quote, then respond within the copied quote. This is my preference, my responses being in blue color within the quote. Please note that the foundation for this approach is to copy the original quote.

Would you tell a non-Christian-- someone who knows nothing about God or Christ-- to keep Sunday?

Would you agree that there would be no purpose in "commanding" or telling someone who doesn't know God to keep the Sabbath?

Probably.

That's because Sabbath-keeping only has meaning if the person is first in a covenant relationship with the Creator.

Right. But specifically, if the agreements of "a" covenant include keeping the Sabbath. The Old Testament makes it quite clear that keeping the Sabbath was a required point in the "Old Covenant" agreement, the covenant between God and Israel. While Gentiles were not excluded from that covenant, neither were they actively proselytized or recruited. Even today, recommended policy is that a rabbi actively discourage a Gentile seeking conversion to Judaism three times.

This statement introduces a difficulty. Which covenant are you talking about? The Old Covenant, between God and Israel, or The New Covenant, between God and all of mankind, both Jews and Gentiles. ("Between God and Jews"? Somehow, when I used the term "Jews" in an earlier post, it was taken to be a slur. From me, no suchava thing as a slur is meant. Jews are God's chosen people. Please, nobody post a comment on that underlined statement now. I intend to schedule that statement for a later topic. Promise. It is already listed on the most reliable of our two household desktop computers.

See Isaiah 56: 1-7, where God gives the same invitation to keep the Sabbath to non-Jews as to Jews.

Procedural question: in referencing Scripture, would it not be more convenient and efficient for Club Adventist participants to have Scripture of allusion quoted in the post? It immediately eats up bandwidth, but ultimately saves time and effort for all of us. So:

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

In these verses, God is reassuring non-Jewish foreigners who wish to convert to Judaism that their overtures will be honored, and when accepted, upheld.

Eunuchs had a particularly sticky place in Jewish culture. The Law of the Torah explicitly excluded those who were eunuchs by any mechanism from the congregation of Israel during Old Testament times. In Isaiah 56, a softer line towards eunuchs is announced. Part of the reason for exclusion of eunuchs from the congregation of Israel is the obvious fact that they could not provide blood line descendants for the Jewish culture ("Behold, I am a dry tree").

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

God wouldn't have invited Gentiles to keep the Sabbath and promised them the very same blessings, if He only intended the Sabbath to be for Jews.

I believe all the evidence shows that the reason there's no direct command by God for all Gentiles to keep the Sabbath is that Sabbath-keeping only has meaning within the context of a covenant relationship with God.

Precisely. In this case for Gentiles who wanted to participate in the covenant between Israel and God for whatever reason. There were no salvation requirements for Gentiles to participate in that covenant. Those Gentiles who did not participate in the Old Covenant were still saved they had faith in God:

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, hath found?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,

Rom 4:7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

Once more, salvation through faith in God does not give license for anyone to sin against God or his fellow man. And what is sin? One specific answer to that question is found over and over in the New Testament in passages that clearly delineate the behavior expected by God. None of those passages mentions keeping the Sabbath. This is made quite clear in Romans, Galatians, and other New Testament books.

We should therefore not expect to find God commanding people who know nothing of Him to keep the Sabbath.

Correct, because keeping the Sabbath was one of the requirements of the Old Covenant.

The bottom line, though, is that we find the New Testament church, including both Jews and Gentiles, keeping the weekly Sabbath.

True. But you cannot document that Sabbath keeping was required of non-Jewish Christians or other Gentiles. And keeping of Sunday by Christians, Sunday patently not being The Biblical Sabbath, is well documented from the earliest days of the Christian Church, even before the second century AD. The actual bottom line is that a mandate to keep the Sabbath was a part of the Old Covenant. It had nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Highest regards, fellow insomniac.

[Neil D]

Oh, Jeorge from Jorgia...

Where, oh, where is my reply>? Why did you leave me here all alone? I search the web over and I thought I found a believer...

You reply to another and [phttttt] you was gone.....

[sung to a tune from Hee-Haw]

[BobRyan]

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by well known Baptists such as Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment admitting that it applies to all mankind since the Garden of eden.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Here we have Andy Stanley - debunking some of the "Sabbath is dead" arguments and admitting that the 4th commandment remains valid even to this very day.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

I said that only Jews are MANDATED to keep the Sabbath. Anyone else who wants to keep the Sabbath can.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Ooooh JawgeFromJawja ....

I was wondering where your reply might be......I know that you are dealing with legalists from my church and may have your hands full...But I was curious as to how you might also lump me in with the legalists, ...**IF **was being lumped in that catagory?

The only problem I have been dealing with was post operative pain, which has greatly subsided over the past two days.

The essential Gospel is found in

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,

1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved; I make known, I say, in what words I preached it unto you, if ye hold it fast, except ye believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

So gloriously simple. Yet so simple that some, apparently with a commendably strong work ethic, insist on injecting their work ethic into the requirements for salvation.

However, Jesus encouraged work for the Glory of God, even though not for salvation. Love for God impels the Christian to openly practice good works:

Mat 5:16 Even so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I do not like labels. One person's legalist may be another's LEGALIST. There are many shades, not only of grey, but of any color.

Indeed. Simply engaging in "name calling" is a low-brow kind of ad hominem that makes no point and proves nothing in terms of advancing the discussion.

Better to just make some kind of Bible point based on an actual Bible text.

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Andy Stanley on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475224

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Not to mention - D.L. Moody's great points on the subject of the 4th commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

Better thread title for that link above for Andy Stanley -

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

That guy Stanley was rather misinformed about the correct day of Sabbath, wasn't he. Even so, He made no convincing point about mandates for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath, or any other day for that matter.

Clicking on the Andy Stalen address gave an "access denied" message 3 times.

Best regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Now that my semi-crippled leg is doing better, I want to review this post again. These updated notes will be in green.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Bob, there are scholars, credible scholars at that, who interpret that passage as meaning Jesus was teaching the priority of people, not necessarily mankind, over the Sabbath.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the [color:#990000]Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

I really do not believe I said that.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I said that only Jews are MANDATED to keep the Sabbath. Anyone else who wants to keep the Sabbath can.

The "ten suggestions -- if you feel like it?" even in the OT??

Please do not get sarcastic with me - yer supposed to respect yer elders. The 10 Suggestions, indeed.

How did you get there?

Now I'll wax a little sarcastic. Very easily. I read the Bible, which in no way mandates any religious or ethnic group other than Israel to keep the Sabbath. You and others quote Scripture that you SAY mandates Sabbath keeping for all mankind, but when I read the same Scripture in the quoted translation and in several different translations, the clear meaning is not as all a mandate for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. When there is such strong disagreement, I seek the opinion of Protestant scholars, my favorite Bible scholastic references being The Interpreters' Bible and The Abingdon Bible Commentary, both published by Abingdon Press, a Methodist publishing arm.

Frankly, I do not accept D L Moody as a "scholar". He was an evangelist. I tend to look on the scholarship of evangelists and preachers with a jaundiced eye. If you read Romans 12: 4 - 8, you will find Paul advising us the the gifts of ministering exhortation, and teaching are different gifts.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What I said is that Sabbath Keeping was mandated for Jews, not Gentiles.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath..shall ALL MANKIND come before Me To Worship" Is 66.

You grossly misread and misunderstand the meaning of Isiah 66: 23. You must start at the beginning of the verse:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

[John317]

And keeping of Sunday by Christians, Sunday patently not being The Biblical Sabbath, is well documented from the earliest days of the Christian Church, even before the second century AD. The actual bottom line is that a mandate to keep the Sabbath was a part of the Old Covenant. It had nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Show the earliest unquestioned observance of Sunday by Christians.

It does not occur in the NT, and the Bible is our standard.

There was no change as regards the Sabbath between the Old and the New Covenants. The New Covenant was ratified at the cross. If there was going to be any change, it would have had to be BEFORE the New Covenant was ratified, not afterwards.

There's also no mandate not to make a carved image or to bow down to them in the New Testament.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Cont'd:

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And WHERE does it say that it is ONLY for Jews?

Answer by Jawge:

Lot of places:

Actually, the passages I referenced mandate only the Jews and those dwelling with them keep the Sabbath. But there is no restriction on Sabbath keeping by non-Jews.

Again, those passages are Exodus 19:25; Exodus 20:1, 2.....

Using the same reasoning you are using, then how much of the NT epistles can you claim for yourself? Romans was written to the Romans, Corinthians to the Corinthians, Galatians to the Galatians, & Revelation addressed to the 7 churches, etc.

[color:#006600]In these allusions, you are wrong about the addressees of some of the letters:

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Frankly, this universal appeal in Corinthians is somewhat surprising to me, for Paul was mostly addressing problems of the Church at Corinth in that letter.

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia [could mean Greece or a specific colony of Greece]:

Second Corinthians was less universally addressed than First Corinthians, but still widely directed.

Most of the rest of Paul's letters have more restricted addressees, but it is a known fact that letters from the early Church fathers to any Church were generally forwarded to multiple other churches, such was the hunger for teaching about The Gospel. From the text, the addressees of Hebrews are rather a fuzzy group, and credible scholars disagree who the intended recipients were.

Same goes for the New Covenant; it was addressed to Israel & Judah, see Jer 31:331-34, Heb 8:8-11.

Nay, not so. See verse 34 of Jer 31, which explicitly states "every man"; and I hope you know who all Jesus would mean by "neighbor" and "brother" - the parable of The Good Samaritan immediately comes to mind:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If the NC is addressed only to Israel & Judah as it reads, how do Gentiles come into possession of its blessings?

But it is NOT addressed only to Israel and Judah "as it reads", as clarified by verse 34. Furthermore, The angels said to the Shepards in Luke 2: 19, "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." "All people" obviously includes both all the Jews and all Gentiles.

Hebrews 8: 8 - 11 is a reference to Jeremiah 31: 31 - 34, and repeats that passage.

Best regards,

[Neil D]

Dear JawgeFromJawja

You stated

Quote:

The essential Gospel is found in

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,

1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved; I make known, I say, in what words I preached it unto you, if ye hold it fast, except ye believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

Unfortunately, you have not dealt with my quote from 1 Corthin. which preceded your "essential Gospel". [Remember, I claim that my texts and stance is not by the law, but rather from faith. I take my stance from the example of Jesus...which is NOT from working my way into heaven, but rather from my understanding thru the Holy Spirit the example of Jesus...who was the model for all mankind...]

I Corinth 11

1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

This text from Corinth 11 1-2 shows that Paul is following the example of Christ. It follows that Paul's reasoning also comes from that same example and all his theology needs to be interpreted from that example. Paul also exhorts his followers to follow his example have some traditions already and passing them onto fellow disciples....Any other interpretation is to show that Paul is either a hypocrite and a liar or a follower of Christ....

Do you agree with this?

[Neil D]

JawgeFromJawja said-

Quote:

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

So gloriously simple. Yet so simple that some, apparently with a commendably strong work ethic, insist on injecting their work ethic into the requirements for salvation.

However, Jesus encouraged work for the Glory of God, even though not for salvation. Love for God impels the Christian to openly practice good works:

Mat 5:16 Even so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

I agree with the above...We are saved by Grace thru faith. But I wonder, how can you say that Sabbath is a works orientated program? What is the Sabbath? If Sabbath is a time, then there is no working within a time, unless your faith is works orientated...Therefore, new testament Sabbath texts should reflect the idea that the Sabbath is a time and not the 'must keep Sabbath for salvation's sake?...Like when Jesus said that "the Sabbath was made for mankind, not mankind made for the Sabbath." or this one from Mark 3

3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.

Was Jesus working His way to heaven or exhibiting faith for the common man?

Jesus left us an example to model our faith...Paul says that he follows Jesus's example, including traditions passed down...Since Jesus's custom was to go to church on the Sabbath, Paul also did the same thing from Act 17-

1 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said......

So, based upon what I've said here, how can you determine if the Sabbath is kept by faith or by works...?

[John317]

Good post.

I believe there's a good reason that there's no commandment on keeping the Sabbath in the New Testament. The reason is that God doesn't want people to keep the Sabbath primarily, or only, because of a rule or command. The Sabbath at its root is a celebration of freedom.

God invites Christians to celebrate the Sabbath, and He had his prophets and apostles show plenty of evidence that the Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant. But if people want to reject God's gift, He has made it easy for them to do so. He won't compel people to find rest on His holy day. It must be by choice, not by force or merely because people are legally obligated to observe it. Hebrews 4 speaks of the Sabbath as a symbol of righteousness by faith, which is really what it is.

[Gerr]

Jawge, would you please give me your thoughts on these?

ESV | ‎Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— ‎12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ‎13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ‎14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

ESV | ‎Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. ‎19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ‎29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

It is inconceivable to me, Jawge, that after Paul went through great lengths to emphasize the oneness of true believers that anyone would then proceed to make distinctions between Jew & Gentile. How then could you say there is ONE God, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Head, ONE Savior, ONE gospel, ONE citizenship, ONE household, ONE body, ONE Mediator, ONE Law, and then proceed to say that Jews & Jewish Christians keep a 10c law and Gentiles only 9?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Dear JawgeFromJawja

You stated

Quote:

The essential Gospel is found in

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,

1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved; I make known, I say, in what words I preached it unto you, if ye hold it fast, except ye believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures;

Unfortunately, you have not dealt with my quote from 1 Corthin. which preceded your "essential Gospel". [Remember, I claim that my texts and stance is not by the law, but rather from faith. I take my stance from the example of Jesus...which is NOT from working my way into heaven, but rather from my understanding thru the Holy Spirit the example of Jesus...who was the model for all mankind...]

I Corinth 11

1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.

This text from Corinth 11 1-2 shows that Paul is following the example of Christ. It follows that Paul's reasoning also comes from that same example and all his theology needs to be interpreted from that example. Paul also exhorts his followers to follow his example have some traditions already and passing them onto fellow disciples....Any other interpretation is to show that Paul is either a hypocrite and a liar or a follower of Christ....

Do you agree with this?

I agree with Paul. I do not agree with your apparent interpretation of Paul's writings.

"Follow my example, as I follow Christ"s". The examples of both Jesus and Paul were basically to act in love, that is concern for the welfare of others, kindness, gentleness, patience, forgiveness, and integrity. These qualities have a Scriptural basis:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Follow Paul in Traditions given the Corinthians? These would not nave been Jewish Traditions, but already established Christina traditions, such as the Eucharist or Lord's Supper.

Follow Christ in His traditions? Christ was a Jew, and on Earth he would have followed Jewish traditions, laws, and earthly traditions. In following Christ, Paul meant Christ like behavior towards His fellow man, that behavior being taught and demonstrated by Jesus.

If I understand you, you are saying that in addition to accepting the Gospel of Jesus'sacrificial death, salvation requires following any and all traditions and behavior of Paul and Jesus as described in the New Testament or as prescribed in the Old Testament. If I am mistaken in your interpretation, please clarify this statement,:

Bob: "[Remember, I claim that my texts and stance is not by the law, but rather from faith. I take my stance from the example of Jesus...which is NOT from working my way into heaven, but rather from my understanding thru the Holy Spirit the example of Jesus...who was the model for all mankind...].

That statement could be read as supporting salvation by works, with faith in salvation by works.

Best regards,

[BobRyan]

Jesus said that those who imagine that he came to change the law in the least - will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said of the pre-context view of the LAW "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

Our good baptist friend and mega-church pastor Andy Stanley says that the Ten Commandments (that is right TEN not NINE) are a sign of the saved relationship to God -- the good fruit of the good tree. He argues that the Sabbath is binding on all mankind and was always in that position.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475972

In Mark 7 Jesus warns against using the (sunday) traditions of man to do away with one of the Commandments of God.

In James 2 we are told that all Satan has to do is get Christians to agree to break just 1 of God's Commandments - and so teach others... to be "Guilty of all".

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

I agree with Paul. I do not agree with your apparent interpretation of Paul's writings.

"Follow my example, as I follow Christ"s". The examples of both Jesus and Paul were basically to act in love, that is concern for the welfare of others, kindness, gentleness, patience, forgiveness, and integrity. These qualities have a Scriptural basis:

[Neil D]

Dear JawgeFromJawja

I need to point out some things that I feel are necessary in your position.

Correct me if I am wrong or make wrong assumptions...

I agree that the baptist's position is an emphasis on grace and the need to depend upon Christ sacrific...But where they go wrong is that they recognise that the Sabbath is a valid institution ....and instead of following Christ's example of keeping a specific day, they reject it. Why do Baptist reject the Sabbath?

There are many reasons why a denomination would reject a different doctrine. One is that they can't be bothered. It is different than thier customs, than what they grew up with. It means that thier family was wrong, no matter what they believed or how strongly they believed it. They were WRONG!

They then cant believe that they were wrong about this...It's just not possible that all that learning was wrong...So they attempt to justify thier reasoning...Well, Jesus was a jew. and all those jews keep the laws that God gave them as a way to work thier way to heaven. So, in keeping the Sabbath, they kept the law and they worked thier way into heaven...Thus, keeping the sabbath was just working your way into heaven. And baptist are of grace and not of works...So, Sabbath is of works...and the Jew's were wrong...

Since the Jews were wrong, thier religion is wrong. Since they are wrong, they killed the Christ. They are doubly wrong..And anything that smacks of working your way into heaven and jews is wrong...

I am sorry, but this is the true thinking of a baptist when it comes to thier religion and Jews....I won't say that it's wrong, but it does smacks of self justification in the worst way...

If you are justifying a wrong position, then you are working your way into heaven...no matter how much grace you claim...And even those who claim to know Christ are told that God never knew them when they did not follow His instructions...[see the parable of the 10 virgins in the NT]

It is like Cain, who brought before God, the work of his hands. I believe that he honestly was trying to do what was right in his eyes...He wanted to honor God. But God required a blood sacrifice...In rejecting the claims of Jesus' custom, you set yourself upto reject the blood sacrifice for the world...and limit it to just the Jews. ....

It still is runing away from God...

[BobRyan]

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Not to mention - D.L. Moody's great points on the subject of the 4th commandment.

Andy Stanley on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

[BobRyan]

You and others quote Scripture that you SAY mandates Sabbath keeping for all mankind, but when I read the same Scripture in the quoted translation and in several different translations, the clear meaning is not as all a mandate for Gentiles to keep the Sabbath.

That is where I like D.L.Moody's open and free acceptance of the Bible teaching of Christ Himself - that the Sabbath was "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 not "just the jews".

It is also where I like the fact that both Charles Stanley and his son Andy Stanley admit that the Bible scope of "ALL MANKIND" when it comes to the Sabbath - is valid. "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

[BobRyan]

Now that my semi-crippled leg is doing better, I want to review this post again. These updated notes will be in green.

[BobRyan]

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Mankind is to come before God to Worship as it says in that text - from Sabbath to Sabbath.

Exegesis demands that we pay attention to context. Isaiah is writing to Jewish readers who know what "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means. They also know what "daily" means as in the case of the "daily sacrifice"

[color:#006600]Once more, I opine strongly that you really monkeyed up translation of that passage.

The passages reads "from Sabbath to Sabbath", not "every Sabbath", an obviously different meaning.