When The President Can Kill Whoever He Wants

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I was told by a black friend of mine in the 1990s that businesses in the UK were still allowed to ask for race on the job application. That was banned in the US in the 1960s.

It's not illegal in the USA.

The Equal Opportunity Commission was not created until the 1970s. Racial discrimination was ban in the 1960s.

[Dr. Shane]

That response illustrates perfectly the nature of American justice and liberty.

America is a collection of states. If you are going to judge the whole country based on just a few states, why do you choose to pick the bad states instead of the good ones?

[lazarus]

The Equal Opportunity Commission was not created until the 1970s. Racial discrimination was ban in the 1960s.

Asking for race is not in and of itself racial discrimination. There are legitimate reasons why an employer would ask for sex, race, and gender. Racist employers often resist the recording of such information. It creates a paper trail.

[Dr. Shane]

I guess my question is whether or not my British black friend that attended Andrews University with me in the 1990s was correct when he stated that racial discrimination was legal in the UK at that time. He told me he wanted to stay in the US after graduation because of that.

We know that the northern US states ban slavery 50 years before Great Britain did. I am not familiar with the history of the civil rights movement in the UK.

[lazarus]

I guess my question is whether or not my British black friend that attended Andrews University with me in the 1990s was correct when he stated that racial discrimination was legal in the UK at that time. He told me he wanted to stay in the US after graduation because of that.

He was mistaken. There were no laws in the UK that permitted racial discrimination. The was no UK equivalent of Jim Crow. 1990's ? He may have wanted to stay for other reasons. I think you had the "wool pulled over your eyes".

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We know that the northern US states ban slavery 50 years before Great Britain did. I am not familiar with the history of the civil rights movement in the UK.

There was no real civil rights movement particularly because there were no laws that promoted and enforced racial discrimination like in the US. Despite abolishing racial discrimination the US made a concerted effort to make sure those "free' Citizens were not free.

But 100 years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

The British were not perfect by any means but they did not have such a deep seated hatred of black people that they would make laws to keep then from liberty and justice.

The US is unique in the fact that it had a legislative apparatus to discriminate against a particular group of its citizens despite it claims of being the land of the free. No other western nation in modern times had that dubious distinction.

[Dr. Shane]

There were no laws in the UK that permitted racial discrimination.

[lazarus]

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The question is if there were laws that banned racial discrimination.

Of course. Like most of the western world the UK passed legislation in the 1960's to ban racial discrimination but it was not against the backdrop of racial discrimination being promoted and supported by others laws as in the US.

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He didn't sell me a used car. We studied the Bible and sang hymns together.

Don't worry, you are not the first to get bad information from someone who you worshiped with.

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This clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding US history. After abolishing slavery the US federal government stationed troops throughout the former Confederate states to protect blacks and some were even elected to public office. Sadly, white Democrat men were slowly able to regain power and passed Jim Crow laws in those states. Jim Crow laws were state and local laws, not federal laws.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that different is automatically an indication of deficiency. You are an American and have been taught to view American history in the best light possible. That's OK. Every country does that to their people. Living in the US I have come to see some aspects of British history in a more balanced way. I've been able to understand the American perspective.

The whole US had a problem with segregation. It was manifested in different ways.......

The Jim Crow laws were state and local laws in the United States enacted between 1876 and 1965. They mandated de jure racial segregation in all public facilities, with a supposedly "separate but equal" status for black Americans. In reality, this led to treatment and accommodations that were usually inferior to those provided for white Americans, systematizing a number of economic, educational and social disadvantages. De jure mainly applied to the Southern United States. Northern segregation was generally de facto, from blacks predominately living in urban ghettos.

While the North has had no Selma march, no Birmingham church bombing, and no George Wallace pronouncement of “segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever,” virtually every northern city had its share of racial killings, cross burnings and white riots.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/4124/jim_crow_in_the_north/

[Dr. Shane]

You are an American and have been taught to view American history in the best light possible.

[John317]

But what happens if our talk about these things causes young people to believe the claims/promises are a lot of lies which only a fool would take seriously? Is that good for anyone?

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It's important to be honest.

Yes, honest. That means telling all the truth, but not doing it in such a way that we teach young people to hate their own country. The truth won't do that because the truth shows that there is more good in America than evil. But is the evil there? Of course. There is evil wherever there are humans.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Americans, particularly Caucasians have a tough time embracing the truth about American liberty.

That's a racial stereotype.

I could just as easily and truthfully say that American blacks have a tough time embracing the full truth about American liberty.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

There is a cognitive dissonance when it comes to American liberty. Men left Europe in pursuit of liberty only to enslave men and women in a most brutal fashion. Free men persecuted Quakers in the new world, burned their books and imprisoned them. Once we understand this truth we can be free from the "rose tinted" vision of American liberty and justice.

What you say here is true, of course.

But who were the first people to be enslaved in the colonies? They first made other whites "slaves," and then when that didn't work out, they tried to make the Indians their slaves. But the Indians would just sit down and refuse to work or eat and they would even die rather than work.

Blacks were made slaves because they would cooperate and because there were Africans willing to sell their fellow-Africans.

Today there are more humans enslaved in Africa than anywhere else in the world, but unfortunately the media doesn't publisize it the way it should.

Check this out:

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Sometimes referred to as bonded laborers (because of the debts owed their masters), public perception of modern slavery is often confused with reports of workers in low-wage jobs or inhumane working conditions. However, modern-day slaves differ from these workers because they are actually held in physical bondage (they are shackled, held at gunpoint, etc.).

Modern-day slaves can be found laboring as servants or concubines in Sudan, as child "carpet slaves" in India, or as cane-cutters in Haiti and southern Pakistan, to name but a few instances. According to Anti-Slavery International, the world's oldest human rights organization, there are currently over 20 million people in bondage.

Where does this slavery take place? Who are the faces behind these atrocities?

Slave Trading on Africa's West Coast

The slave trade in Africa was officially banned in the early 1880s, but forced labor continues to be practiced in West and Central Africa today. UNICEF estimates that 200,000 children from this region are sold into slavery each year. Many of these children are from Benin and Togo, and are sold into the domestic, agricultural, and sex industries of wealthier, neighboring countries such as Nigeria and Gabon.

Read more: Slavery in the Modern World — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html#ixzz1aoKv6cb2

[bonnie]

Those that have gone from poverty to middle class or wealthy have not always had someone to help.Many never made it to a good school,many dropped out before finishing high school.Many lost their parents and were orphaned at a young age. What was different about those that made it and those that stayed trapped in poverty was personal responsibility,motivation and a desire and determination to succeed.The last few generations have lost that and depend on the personal responsibility,motivation and a desire and determination of others.

Poverty is not terminal unless someone wants to use that as an excuse.

[Dr. Shane]

Those that have gone from poverty to middle class or wealthy have not always had someone to help.

[olger]

"The way of the slothful is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway."

Shane, I think you are being too hard on Bonnie. There are many people who have gone from "rags to riches" on the basis of their creativity and ambition. I realize that there are also people who work hard and never seem to get ahead, but those people are likely demonstrating the saying "Work smarter, not harder."

G

[bonnie]

"The way of the slothful is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway."

Shane, I think you are being too hard on Bonnie. There are many people who have gone from "rags to riches" on the basis of their creativity and ambition. I realize that there are also people who work hard and never seem to get ahead, but those people are likely demonstrating the saying "Work smarter, not harder."

The words"I can't" generally mean "I don't want to" Not interested" "I don't want to work that hard".

There is a very fine line in giving a "hand up" and dependency. When the hand holding/handouts become a "right" and you let go of the hand they many times they fall flat on their face.

For those that feel they could only succeed with the hand outs from others it is difficult to accept that others succeed.

Shane and I could get into a "I was a lot poorer than you" contest and I have little doubt I would win. A BIG WHOOP,so what?

My brothers and I had a personal choice to make. We could sit there and wait for someone to come along and pull us up and pray they didn't let go before we decided we were ready or get off our backside and make blame sure we did better than anyone else.

Not being to fond of poverty we chose the latter.

That choice however is a slap in the face to those that chose the first choice.

Watch what is happening with Herman Cain. He became successful because he is not black enough,or the wrong color/ideology black. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with personal responsibility,motivation and a desire to succeed.

The man didn't seem to know what the words "I can't" meant.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

You are an American and have been taught to view American history in the best light possible.

That is simply not true. In college, I took political classes that were taught from an anti-American perspective. Such classes are not unusual even in American universities. However I also lived and studied in Latin America and was taught their view of America.

Oh, tell me that pigs can fly also!

You took political classes that were taught from a POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW...not from anti-American perspective. As such, your political class explores many ideas that challenge your already established POV, which you have already thought as 'american'...

This thinking is just ...wrong....

[bonnie]

"The way of the slothful is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway."

Shane, I think you are being too hard on Bonnie. There are many people who have gone from "rags to riches" on the basis of their creativity and ambition. I realize that there are also people who work hard and never seem to get ahead, but those people are likely demonstrating the saying "Work smarter, not harder."

G

I think there is a need for some to justify their own actions or means of becoming successful by deciding all do the same in one way or another.It must be the businessman that has created or is meeting a demand isn't any different than someone taking the labor of another to meet his/her goals.

The consumer is not doing business with someone out of the goodness of his heart.His intent is to obtain what he wants/needs.The business man will succeed if he is a good business man.But not because of "welfare or created rights".The business man has already contributed towards any service he uses and will continue to do so at a higher rate.Along with paying for a portion of those that don't pay anything at all.

Some claim that all pay taxes so all are "entitled".Not seeming to understand when you pay taxes with the money taken from others it is simply recycled money.

A business man needs employee's.Not as a favor to employee's but to get a product to market.The employee does not apply because he wants to make the businessman wealthy.He wants the employer to succeed so his paycheck continues.Some confuse that with being subsidized or supported by others

Shane has mentioned he picked crops and lasted three days and was told not to come back.Wonder what the outcome would have been had he been told,"You don't work,you don't eat.

My older brothers and I began picking corn when I was ten. Ten cents a long row and five cents a short row.I was responsible for watching my five year old brother.He brought his cars and trucks and played while we worked.The neighbor did not hire us as a favor or to help us. He hired us to get his corn picked as cheap as possible.At the end of the day we received what we had produced.Had we not produced we would not have received.There wasn't any "I can't,It's to hard"

We dug potato's for the farmer that provided the most locally.Hot,nasty,dirty work.No excuses because we were children.Slice a potato with the shovel and you were docked.

You take away the need to say "I can and will"and replace it with "I cannot unless you give me" you have just excatly what we have

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, I think you are being too hard on Bonnie. There are many people who have gone from "rags to riches" on the basis of their creativity and ambition.

We are talking in a historical context, not about present day. Of course history has its Arnold Carnages but they were few and far between. Many, many men were born in poverty and worked jobs in mines or fields and never were able to break out of poverty. It wasn't racism that held them back. It was cronyism.

Cronyism still exists today but on a far less scale than years past. Cronyism is design to protect class status. Those born into high-class status stay in it. Those born in the lower-class stay in it.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane has mentioned he picked crops and lasted three days and was told not to come back.Wonder what the outcome would have been had he been told,"You don't work,you don't eat.

I would have broken into someone's home and stolen their food. Oh wait, I did do that. Mystery solved.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Shane has mentioned he picked crops and lasted three days and was told not to come back.Wonder what the outcome would have been had he been told,"You don't work,you don't eat.

I would have broken into someone's home and stolen their food. Oh wait, I did do that. Mystery solved.

Certainly is,says a lot about your attitude.Wouldn't be to proud of that.The choice between doing your best and stealing should not be a choice at all.

[bonnie]

Cronyism still exists today but on a far less scale than years past. Cronyism is design to protect class status. Those born into high-class status stay in it. Those born in the lower-class stay in it.

Excuses are designed to protect the lower class.

Thousands and thousands go from poverty to at least middle class,upper class and some become wealthy every year.

They have made the choice to leave excuses to the other guys.

They choose not to stay in the lower class.

[SivartM]

Excuses are designed to protect the lower class.

Thousands and thousands go from poverty to at least middle class,upper class and some become wealthy every year.

They have made the choice to leave excuses to the other guys.

They choose not to stay in the lower class.

Any studies to back this up or only anecdotes and presuppositions? I would bet that many of those "thousands and thousands" are greatly helped by social welfare programs.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Excuses are designed to protect the lower class.

Thousands and thousands go from poverty to at least middle class,upper class and some become wealthy every year.

They have made the choice to leave excuses to the other guys.

They choose not to stay in the lower class.

Any studies to back this up or only anecdotes and presuppositions? I would bet that many of those "thousands and thousands" are greatly helped by social welfare programs.

Anything to back this up?......

I would bet are greatly helped by social welfare programs.

Life and years is a pretty good teacher. Most that I grew up with

that were at poverty level did not have the luxury of "demanding rights be created" and funded by others.Most have gone from there to at least a comfortable middle class,many beyond that.

It was sheer necessity and a determination to succeed that took them from the poverty level.

Not social programs. Do social programs work for some? Yes.

Those that claim they want college and want someone else to pick up the tab may succeed. Those on welfare/extended unemployment may eventually find a job. Some may eventually be responsible for their own health care.Those purchasing a home may actually pay for it

But nowhere in that is a "moral right" to demand those that are more successful,work harder and are more responsible carry someone.

What is done by christians is a different issue than what some demand the government enforce.

You have a right to work hard and go as far as your determination and energy will take you,save,get a education,become a home owner and all things that go with "rights".Your "rights" stop when they trample and abuse the "rights" of others. All should pay a reasonable tax to support infrastructure and services required by a nation.Reasonable does not mean penalizing someone because they have been willing to take a risk and work harder than you. It would be tough to outsmart God. The same percentage across the board.Then everyone has a part and the more successful the more you pay.There will never be an end or enough to the demand for higher taxes for "the poor and the children" as long as the government has a never ending supply.

When the government spends 1.56 for every dollar of new revenue eventually this will catch up and now it has.When those on the receiving end receive with little or no requirements to be met what you end up with is abuse.Abusing those that have the motivation and personal responsibility to better their own lives.

You have a right to determine what you do with income you have earned after that.You do not have the "right" to determine what others do with theirs.

[Dr. Shane]

Thousands and thousands go from poverty to at least middle class,upper class and some become wealthy every year.

This is very true TODAY. But I am talking about historically. Historically (that means in the past) cronyism has kept poor people poor and rich people rich for generations. That had a larger impact on racial minorities because cronyism keeps them outside the gate. For example: if you need to have a close family member that has graduated from medical school in order to get into medical school, a newly freed slave isn't getting into medical school - nor his son - nor his grandson - nor his great grandson - etc, etc, etc. Of course cronyism punished poor white people just as much as it punished blacks.

I am an example of the new system today that allows poor white trash like me raised on the welfare dime to grow up, get a college degree and become entrenched in the middle class.

[bonnie]

I am an example of the new system today that allows poor white trash like me raised on the welfare dime to grow up, get a college degree and become entrenched in the middle class.

Many people grew up poor. You are not special in that sense.

Many of those poor did not grow up on the welfare dime,still went to college and became part of the middle class.

They used a different system

[Dr. Shane]

If we are talking about the last 30 years, I highly doubt that any significant number of people grew up poor without getting any government assistance and then went on to get a college degree without any government assistance. I would have to have someone show me all these people to believe they even exist.

[bonnie]

If we are talking about the last 30 years, I highly doubt that any significant number of people grew up poor without getting any government assistance and then went on to get a college degree without any government assistance. I would have to have someone show me all these people to believe they even exist.

Government assistance has become a way of life.The government says you can't without it and all those drinking the kool-aid say Yes!

There are still a significant number that say No,thank you,I can work and pay my own way.

Your relating your experience picking produce does show exactly how badly you wanted to do that.

Had that job been a necessity you would have caught on quickly.

It probably is hard to believe people exist that chose a different way. Why would they when the handout was right around the corner.

You claim crony capitalism for those that succeeded before welfare. All in different time periods,Explain how my cousin got into medical school,his father drove a rendering truck and did not know anyone of importance.He got there because of good grades, determination, and hard work.

My brother was highly successful,without a high school diploma,not knowing anyone of importance,and never took a welfare dime.

A niece dropped out of college the first year,it was not for her.Didn't know anyone important and got a job as a receptionist for a major company.When she no longer wanted to work she was in the mega bucks per year range,surpassed your claimed income by many thousand of dollars.No welfare dime,just motivation and determination/hard work.

No matter what years you are referring to there are many that do/have done this every year.

Those that choose the other way are often reluctant to give others their due.Many do not see their poverty as a badge of honor,one that "entitles them".

More and more will hang onto the "poor me,can't/won't do it on my own"