Robert Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 Quote: Norman said: I can't accept your definition that it is [in the] continuous tense. It fits what you believe but I don't believe it's not an accurate translation. And that's your problem, Norman! You can't accept the fact that sweat little Norman ain't measuring up.....Many legalists are in your shoes! May I remind you of what EGW again: "Not to see THE MARKED difference between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not ABHOR himself cannot understand the meaning of redemption." [RH 25-09-1900] "While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks [:"red"]their security[/] by the startling denunciation of their true condition...."[TM 3:252] "WHEN the light from Christ shines [i.e., His glory] into our souls, we shall see how impure we are, we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiles every act of life." [sC 28] "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [NASB] "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [NIV] "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" [RSV] "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" [KJV] "And fall short" is in the continuous tense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 26, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 26, 2006 "There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law." Rom 3:30,31 NLT. "Through him and for his name;s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith." Rom 1:5 NIV Faith without works is deaddeaddead!!! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 26, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 26, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: "And you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people FROM their sins." Mt 1:21 NLT And Jesus did in Himself.... If you mean this to mean we are perfect as God is perfect, then you are deceived! And you do mean that, so you are deceived! I am posting to a blind man... [:"blue"]When God said, "Let us make people in our image, to be like ourselves," Gen 1:26 NLT, what did He mean? Did God clone Himself? So when Jesus said that we are to be perfect as God is perfect, did He mean the exaxt clone of God? What you are demanding for us to become, Robert, is the same impossible thing that Lucifer aspired to, for a creature to be exactly like his creator. Read Gen 1:26 over & over and see what it means to be in the "image" & "likeness" to God mean. Gerry [/] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 26, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 26, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: Quote: When Jesus learned the trade of carpentry, was He being selfish? Verse please! Yes...He probably helped his dad, but Jesus wasn't out for the money and the nice things that go with learning a skill. Why? Self-seeking is sin! [:"blue"]Do you think Jesus worked for free? Is it self-seeking to charge a fee for one's work? [/] Gerry In this world if a man doesn't work He doesn't eat....Christ wasn't a burden to anyone, yet He lived not for himself....You do, hence you are a sinner! [:"blue"] Please, just answer a very simple question, did Jesus work for free? And tell me, are homeless and illiterate people a burden to society or not? [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Rob, Quote: And that's your problem, Norman! You can't accept the fact that sweat little Norman ain't measuring up.....Many legalists are in your shoes! Man you are so way off it isn't funny. You have a mental block that you can't see past. I am saying that what you want to see is only your way (which I believe is incomplete) and I am saying that I see it another way and that I don't believe what you say to be fact. Because I have a different opinion that means I can't see the difference between me and Christ? Far from it. You say things over and over that I don't claim. I never claimed perfection or sinlessness, yet you want to keep saying that I'm claiming that it is necessary as a means of salvation. You can't see past that because you may be the one who can't measure up and are afraid to admit that you cant overcome, not knowing that you've been doing it all you life in your own strength. You will not surrender, so how can you have victory? Therefore you judge everyone else according to your life of defeat and call them legalists because they see it differently and walk towards to goal of complete surrender. Your human attempts and failures at living a converted life are guiding you. You ultimately (in your mind) have made yourself the pattern of salvation instead of Christ being the pattern. The people that I know who believe this theory, come from a background of legalism. This legalism was brought about as a result of attempting to live the SDA life while not knowing God, therefore not loving Him. Even you, to this day you still do not love God as is witnessed in your posts. I don't think that since I have been a part of this club, that I have ever seen a post from you talking about the amazing love of God for you and what He is doing in your life personally. I don’t do this to condemn but to point out your fruit in order for you to see clearly. You are stuck on this method of salvation because that method that you have adopted, does not call for a deep relationship with God. It tells you that because of Christ you are saved, nothing else needed. I agree to a certain extent, but there has to be a love for God that guides and compels us till we would die for Him and the people around us. Check your fruit, be real and honest. I am dealing with my life and what I must do and God is working in my life. If love for God is not the result of what you believe and instead you find yourself not liking those who believe in God yet disagree with you, then you should think carefully about what you have accepted as truth. If you have been revealing this love where you live then you should testify to God’s love for you here, so we can begin to see that your method of the Gospel has fruit. Wouldn’t that make sense seeing you’re trying to teach us the Gospel? Rom 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: "Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law." Rom 3:30,31 NLT. Please use a real Bible and not this paraphrased junk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Maybe he did something in return for food....Jesus wasn't a capitalist like you, Gerry! Gerry there wouldn't be homeless and illiterate people if we truly loved our neighbor as we naturally love ourselves....We are too preoccupied with "self"! Our educational system is even based on "self".....It's based on who has the best grades....it's all about self-promotion! Everything in this world is based on self-seeking....Let me quote Jack: Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self [self-seeking], even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: Norman said: ...you judge everyone else according to your life of defeat and call them legalists because they see it differently and walk towards to goal of complete surrender. As to judging...I can't read your heart...I don't know where you are at in your walk, but I do know legalism when I hear it! Lucky for you God saves legalists ....but He can't save them when they knowingly persist in their state of unbelief. Personally I have enjoyed a changed life....I have experienced holiness, but I also know that I am not measuring up to Christ's life as recorded in the NT. Why? I am not deceived in this matter! Quote: Even you...still do not love God as is witnessed in your posts. Really? I think you need to back off with your self-righteous baloney, okay? Thanks, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Guys, salvation is manifested in the simplicity of a child’s understanding, in the forlorn desperation of a thief upon a cross, …the complexities of a scholar such as St Paul, and true to the commandment of Gd to so love another as to lay down one’s life for that other… was fulfilled by such as – the homosexual in Alexander’s army who sacrificed himself that his lover might live. Or is there something other, or contrary, to be inferred from “no greater love hath man than that he should lay down his life for another”? ‘Understanding’ is given to one or another as the Spirit leads. That ‘understanding’ differs, as one individual comprehends differently from another; nevertheless, though different, individually they are expected to produce the fruits of the Spirit or they, as unfruitful branches – are cut off and burned. Jn 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. v16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: The “friend”, as opposed to the “servant”, is not necessarily thought to “surrender” in the most absolute sense, or we must assume Christ used “friend” in a manner unknown to us. I think Gd rather prefers knowledgeable acquiescence with some degree of individual initiative retained, a mutual admiration society, as it were – than mere obsequiousness. The above “…but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, …” seems to speak more to an aware and working affinity – than just an assumed and/or insular ‘belief unto salvation’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: jasd said: “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends .” [KJV] May I remind you of some other verses? "Even sinners love those who love them." [Luke 6:32] "If you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers [sinners] do the same?" [Matt 5:46] In other words humans can love their friends...even maybe die for a friend if the rare circumstance call for such action. "For one will hardly die for a fair man; though perhaps for a good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners [His Enemies], Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the curse of God through Him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." [Romans 5:7-10] The greatest love humans can achieve is to die for a friend...a good person. But God contradicts the best of human love by dying for His enemies! When the man Jesus Christ died, He just wasn't saying goodbye to life for 3 days. NO! He was saying I love those murdering Me more than Myself. He was in a nutshell saying "Goodbye to life forever" so that His enemies could take His place in Paradise! You must remember that the man Jesus Christ was completely dependent upon the Father for everything [see John 5:19,30] - especially the resurrection! It was while Christ hung on the cross that God had to legally abandoned His Son [see Matthew 27:46] who became "sin for us" who personally [as God] knew no sin [see 2 Corinthians 5:21]. This abandonment is what constitutes the second death [i.e., the goodbye to life death or the curse of the law]. So...all you guys who think that you are Holy Joe’s, ask yourself if you can love your enemies as Christ loved His? Let's say you come home and find your wife, infant and children being held at gunpoint by two evil men. Now they have you at gunpoint. They tie you up and then begin torturing your family. They sodimize your wife and children. Then they take turns at raping your wife over and over. Finally, after many hours, they literally torture your family to death. Now, would you be willing to say goodbye to life forever [i.e., give up paradise] so that your enemies might take your place? Would you take their death penalty upon yourself so they might go Scott-free? Would you be willing to defend your enemies [as Christ did] and say to the Judge, "Forgive them; for they know not what they do.” [see Luke 23:34] That's love...not human love, but God's selfless, agape love! That's the type of love the law of God requires! Are you measuring up? Could you do it? Well, some of you in your self-righteous pride will say, "yes - I could do it." And I say, "really?" Please remember that Christ didn't even sin by a thought. When His murderers were torturing Him all He had was love for them. He wished them no harm...He did not retaliate and He made no threats against them [see 1 Peter 2:22,23]. That's the type of love the law of God requires. Do you still wish to be "under the law"? I hope not...I hope you desire to be under God's grace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 27, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2006 [:"blue"]"Love does no wrong to anyone, so love satisfies all of God's requirements." Rom 13:10 NLT "so love satisfies ALL of God's requirements." "so love satisfies ALL of God's requirements." Paul says, when we love others & don't do them wrong, we are measuring up!!! [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Good morning Rob, Quote: Lucky for you God saves legalists ....but He can't save them when they knowingly persist in their state of unbelief. No luck involved, We are saved by grace and we believe in and love Jesus and the Father, revealing that fact by loving those around us. We are not saved by a method of salvation. Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 27, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: "Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law." Rom 3:30,31 NLT. Please use a real Bible and not this paraphrased junk! [:"blue"]"Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, [:"red"]for His name's sake." [/]Rom 1:5 NASB. "Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name," NKJ "Through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name." Young's Literal Trans. "Through whom we have received grace & apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for the sake of His name." NRSV "Through Christ, God gave me the special work of an apostle which was to lead people of all nations to believe and obey. I do this work for him." NCV "Through Him and for His name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles [:"red"]to the obedience that comes from faith." [/]NIV [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 27, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Maybe he did something in return for food....Jesus wasn't a capitalist like you, Gerry! [:"blue"]Food to feed Himself? Wow!!! Per your definition, wasn't that being selfish? I thought you said He was totally selfless!!!. Worked only in return for food? How about clothing? How about something to replace a broken tool? How about a little profit to buy His mother's necessities? Something for His brothers & sisters? [/] Quote: Gerry there wouldn't be homeless and illiterate people if we truly loved our neighbor as we naturally love ourselves....We are too preoccupied with "self"! Our educational system is even based on "self".....It's based on who has the best grades....it's all about self-promotion! [:"blue"]And who would you promote? The guy who is illiterate? The guy with the poorest grade? If you were dying, who would you consult for your sickness, a U.S. medical graduate or a medicine man from the hinterlands of New Guinea? [/] Quote: Everything in this world is based on self-seeking....Let me quote Jack: Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self [self-seeking], even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “ all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). [:"blue"]And let me quote Paul, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." Rom 8:9 NKJ. As a result, "when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflist with the law." Gal 5:22,23 NLT [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 27, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: So...all you guys who think that you are Holy Joe’s, ask yourself if you can love your enemies as Christ loved His? [:"blue"]Let me aske you again. What did God mean when He said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness? Did He clone Himself so that man would be an exact reproduction of Himself? Isn't that what you are demanding? The creature to be an exact reproduction of his creator? Because if this is what you are asking for, then of course, you are correct, NOBODY, not even the angels of heaven could "measure up"!!![/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 27, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2006 And who is the real believer? A thief who claims to be a follower of Jesus but continues to steal, or the thief who claims to be a follower of Jesus and stops stealing? [:"blue"]"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief" Heb 3:18,19 NKJ "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.' He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went. Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go. Which of the two did the will of his father?" Mt 21:28-30 NKJ. "Therefore whoever hears these saysings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock; and rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not DO them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand; and rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." Mt 7:24-27 NKJ [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archierieus Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Reading through this thread, I can't help but ask those posting here: is there any point in continuing this debate? I perceive that evidence has been presented, which is abundantly clear, and which establishes the points asserted, at least by the standard of clear and convincing evidence, if not beyond a reasonable doubt. Yet, individuals' minds, very clearly--unmistakably--are made up. What is to be gained? Why expend the time and energy to continue, when much good may be accomplished with others, whose minds and hearts are open? And, in the end, the continued persistence can reflect poorly on all involved. Regards, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Hi Dave, Quote: I can't help but ask those posting here: is there any point in continuing this debate? I have thought that too and at one point just gave up. But for me it's not just an arguement, it's a hope that just something I'll say or do to push Rob and get him to see that his position is flawed. But I am getting to the point where I may just sign off, I believe only the Holy Spirit can do what I hope for. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Rob, Quote: So...all you guys who think that you are Holy Joe’s, ask yourself if you can love your enemies as Christ loved His? Ask Stephen, Paul, Peter, and hundred's if not millions who have been martyred for their faith. The answer to your question is no, not in my own strength, but yes in Christ I can do all things that God calls me to do. Absolutely 100% yes and if you can't then you should drop what you believe and ask why not? I's been done, being done and will be done. That's what in Christ and Christ in you means. Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you , what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Jesus said it, so it's been done and continues to be. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 27, 2006 Moderators Share Posted January 27, 2006 You are correct, so I'll sign off with this: [:"red"] "The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. Because God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden whether it is good or evil." Eccl 12:13,14 NASB [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: Norman said: ...for me it's not just an arguement, it's a hope that just something I'll say or do to push Rob and get him to see that his position is flawed. BC- CW TI- Counsels to Writers and Editors CN- 4 CT- Attitude to New Light PR- 01 PG- 37 We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed.... The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Quote: Norman said: Rob, Quote: So...all you guys who think that you are Holy Joe’s, ask yourself if you can love your enemies as Christ loved His? Ask Stephen, Paul, Peter, and hundred's if not millions who have been martyred for their faith. Dying for one's faith is not the same as obeying the spirit of the law perfectly. Yes...it takes faith to give up and die rather than renounce Christ, but it has nothing to do with perfection. Christ never hated His enemies even by a thought....He loved them more than Himself to the point of saying goodbye to life forever so that His enemies could take His place in heaven! What if your wife was tortured, raped and murdered (as in the illustration I gave). Would you be willing to take their death penalty so that they could go Scott-free? That's what Christ did.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Okay, so I indulged in a bit o’ hyperbole for the tweak effect; it remains, that even the most egregious aspects of what I forwarded -- provide soil fertile to the composition of volumes of essays and theses. Having so admitted, does not necessarily translate into a negation of the posit, does it? >>You must remember that the man Jesus Christ was completely dependent upon the Father for everything…<< Upon that point I segue to Jn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. … Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Do these texts suggest that although Christ could, of Himself – as stated, resurrect by His own accord or volition? and, if so, then what part of His sojourn in Hell was He dependant upon His Father that He should say…, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 28, 2006 Author Share Posted January 28, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: You are correct, so I'll sign off with this: "The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. Because God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden whether it is good or evil." Eccl 12:13,14 NASB Gerry Then you are lost because YOU fall short of God's selfless love! Face it, YOU ARE SELFISH! You do not love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. The proof? Self-love and self-seeking....This the law especially condemns.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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