Should Adventist Pastors Receive a Salary?

[Gordon1]

Surgery, dentistry, aviation are trades, requiring training with tools & technique.

The Bible is a completely different matter. It was not intended to ruin a man's life with debt as Kevin noted.

It was meant for the common man to believe, and then share. To set him free.

Its purpose: To connect the working man with Jesus Christ.

Direct connection with The Master Teacher, free of charge.

Yet we take a detour to Higher Education. And claim to be wiser.

[CoAspen]

Yet we take a detour to Higher Education. And claim to be wiser.

Sad, very sad. Education has always been under attack by those that fear it.

[Kevin H]

The pastor uses tools as well, the business tools of running a church, board meetings, recrutement. Sadly, there is not that much Bible required. There is some on the undergraduate level but for the M. Div degree there are 3 Bible classes and a couple of spoonfeed theology classes that varry with the current shade of the Seminary. However if they want to go into Bible there is the Biblical history and culture and learning the restults of archaeology, if not specializing in that field and needing to learn those tools. Learning how to review the linguistic studies if not choosing to specialize in that field and learn the ancient languages. These are all tools that need proficiency.

[Gordon1]

Sadly, there is not that much Bible required.

Thank you Kevin. It's quite apparent. Man's only solution, eschewed.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." Hosea 4:6

[lazarus]

To the contrary, we see a group of 12, mostly unschooled men, hand-picked by the Saviour.

And the doctors of the law being confounded by this wisdom, even at 12 yrs. old.

EGW says a very brief education is the best, including manual skills.

And to shun debt. Etc.

Gordon: let me offer this.

Young men should not enter upon the work of explaining the Scriptures and lecturing upon the prophecies when they do not have a knowledge of the important Bible truths they try to explain to others. They may be deficient in the common branches of education and therefore fail to do the amount of good they could do if they had had the advantages of a good school. Ignorance will not increase the humility or spirituality of any professed follower of Christ. The truths of the Divine Word can be best appreciated by an intellectual Christian. Christ can be best glorified by those who serve Him intelligently. The great object of education is to enable us to use the powers which God has given us in such a manner as will best represent the religion of the Bible and promote the glory of God.--3T 160 (1872).

EGW was very passionate about higher education for pastors and others. It is a direct result of her influence that we have the number of schools and universities that we have.

[lazarus]

The pastor uses tools as well, the business tools of running a church, board meetings, recrutement. Sadly, there is not that much Bible required. There is some on the undergraduate level but for the M. Div degree there are 3 Bible classes and a couple of spoonfeed theology classes that varry with the current shade of the Seminary.

I'm not sure where you went to Adventist college but actually wished for a more practical pastoral education. There was too much Bible. Greek, Hebrew, OT studies, NT studies, the sanctuary, Daniel Revelation etc. We needed more practical courses is church administration, counseling, and an accounting practices course would have been appreciated.

[Gordon1]

A nice quotation Lazarus, but says nothing to support higher, protracted or

debt-ridden education. On the contrary it presses for 'knowledge of important Bible truths'

cultivation of God-given intelligence and increase of humility & spirituality.

Yes, she was passionate about long degree programs, but against them.

EGW or James or William Miller - without letters - would trounce any prof. today.

Respectfully, here's why:

"Do not encourage students, who come to you burdened for the work of saving their fellow men, to enter upon course after course of study. Do not lengthen out the time for obtaining an education to many years. By this course they suppose that there is time enough, and this very plan proves a snare to their souls. Many are better prepared, have more spiritual discrimination and knowledge of God, and know more of His requirements, when they enter upon a course of study than when they graduate."

"The question was asked those assembled: “Do you believe the truth? do you believe the third angel’s message? If you do believe, then act your faith, and do not encourage men to continue in Battle Creek when they should be away from that place doing their Master’s business.” The Lord is not glorified in this procrastination. Men go to Battle Creek, and receive a far higher idea of their capabilities than they should. They are encouraged to take a long, protracted course of study; but God’s way is not in it. It does not have a heavenly endorsement. Precious probationary time will not permit of long protracted years of drill. God calls: hear His voice as He says, “Go work today in My vineyard.” Now, just now, is the time to work. Do you believe that the Lord is coming, and that the last great crisis is about to break upon the world?"

Fundamentals of Christian Education 355,6.

[Stan]

Some times education is an investment that pays off later.. it is not like gambling or buy candy.

[lazarus]

On the contrary it presses for 'knowledge of important Bible truths'

Perhaps you missed the line below. She is not just talking about knowledge of bible truths.

"They may be deficient in the common branches of education and therefore fail to do the amount of good they could do if they had had the advantages of a good school."

In the middle section of the quote (which you left out) EGW outlines the attitudes that can make many years of study counter productive. It is wise to guard against those attitudes and practices. Of course "degree after degree" (as EGW puts it) can leave an man/woman unfitted for practical service. Equally, ignorant men can retard , shame and disrupt the work.

I'm grateful for the many fine administrators that I have the privileged to work with who have shown over many years of service that they are passionate about truth and the saving of souls despite their degrees. :)

[Gordon1]

Lazarus, common branches of education or advantages of a good school

may simply be solid grounding in the 3Rs or decent homeschooling.

A good high school would fulfill her recommendation,

& most likely what she meant. No higher learning is implied or stated.

Unfortunately you choose to change focus from pastors to degreed administrators.

Many pastors seem trained in tactics of debate - that's not for me.

[lazarus]

Unfortunately you choose to change focus from pastors to degreed administrators.

Many pastors seem trained in tactics of debate - that's not for me.

I give the compliment for most pastors I know too. Many of use are not trained it debate but just know how to respond to the many questions we get.

[lazarus]

A good high school would fulfill her recommendation,

& most likely what she meant. No higher learning is implied or stated.

EGW was not against a college education or higher learning. Read about EGW's roel in the founding of Pacific Union College. You'll be inspired.

[ClubV12]

The Father provided everything Jesus needed. Needed, being the key word. He was near death from lack of food after 40 days in the wilderness and would have perished had not angels provided sustenance immediately. He knew hunger, fatigue, cold.

Likewise, Paul wrote a letter asking for a coat in prison because he to was cold. They both, at times, slept on the side of the road, and winters could be harsh.

Jesus had no home, being at the mercy of others. Ellen and James White injured their health early on in the ministry from lack of food and from others not seeing and answering their needs.

I know, it's different today and Pastors need an income. But one day it will return to the same conditions the Waldenses faced. Hunger, death, cold. When that day comes the Father will supply everything we need, to keep from dieing. Don't expect to be treated or receive anything more than that.

[epaminondas]

A friend decided to join the ministry after years as a layworker.

He knew the message pretty well.

Then came back to me, quite unbelieving (about 10 yrs. ago).

"I don't understand why they put us up for conferences in five star hotels"

Couldn't help him with that one, but he's now a full pastor.

I know someone who has just retired as an accountant working for the SDA church. He tells horror stories about money wastage.

Pastors are often moved between churches. Why, I don't know. When I remarked to one pastor's wife how much of a hassle moving was - they were on the move again - she said it was no hassle to them as the SDA church paid to have all their belongings packed from the drawers and shelves and unpacked again on the other side. I've been moved to a new job as a doctor and later also as a consultant surgeon, and we didn't have that luxury. When moved overseas they did pack everything to cover it for losses due to breakage, but they didn't unpack it on the other side.

In one book by a pastor's wife (SDA) about working in Russia the wife tells how she bought a photocopying machine to be used in Russia while back in the USA on holiday. I immediately knew that the USA uses 110V and 60Hz while much of the world uses 220V and 50Hz. Photocopiers also use a lot of consumables which need to be available for the specific model where the machine is to be used. Not surprisingly, she told the photocopier wouldn't work in Russia as if it was a big surprise. They got it working later. I thought it gross irresponsibility to allow someone with no knowledge on the subject to spend church money like that.

Knowing the SDA church wastes money, I give my tithes to Gospel for Asia and other worthy causes.

Yes, pastors should be paid.

[ClubV12]

It's no surprise you don't pay tithe to the Church epaminondas, considering your theology and doctrinal views are so different from Seventh-day Adventist fundamental beliefs.

Lots of people find some "good excuse" to send tithe to some place that makes them "feel good". The Father says what He means, means what He says, ignore His instructions on the tithe at your peril.

Tithe pays the Pastors salary, just as it did for the Levites, who were supported by the members of the congregation.

[epaminondas]

It's no surprise you don't pay tithe to the Church epaminondas, considering your theology and doctrinal views are so different from Seventh-day Adventist fundamental beliefs.

Lots of people find some "good excuse" to send tithe to some place that makes them "feel good". The Father says what He means, means what He says, ignore His instructions on the tithe at your peril.

Tithe pays the Pastors salary, just as it did for the Levites, who were supported by the members of the congregation.

My tithe money goes elsewhere. It would be a mistake to give my tithe money to people I know for a fact are not careful with money. The organisations I give my money to may also waste it, but I don't know that for a fact. So, chances are they are more careful with it than the SDA church. In any case, I spread it around for this reason - maybe one, hopefully more, will really use the money efficiently.

And I disagree with the theology of nearly all the organisations I give money to. They're all Sunday keepers. Sunday holiness is about as stupid as the trinity and equally well founded.

Wasting money is better than a good excuse, it's a solid reason.

[epaminondas]

Quote:

Many pastors seem trained in tactics of debate - that's not for me.

One of the worst things they all seem to get taught is padding. They all know how to pad a three minute topic so it can last twenty minutes. Do they think we are so stupid that we don't notice it?

[LoneRanger]

Yeh, that bothers me, too. The biggest problem is they pad stuff we've heard for the last--well, in my case--50 years.

If Scripture is something we will never exhaust in an eternity of studying we should be able to make SOME progress here.

[lazarus]

Quote:

Many pastors seem trained in tactics of debate - that's not for me.

One of the worst things they all seem to get taught is padding. They all know how to pad a three minute topic so it can last twenty minutes. Do they think we are so stupid that we don't notice it?

Well, in most churches people keep coming back, week after week. In a good number of churches in increasing numbers. There are at least three explanations for this phenomenon.

[BobRyan]

.

Many pastors seem trained in tactics of debate -

Sadly that is not at all the case.

Most pastors are not at all practiced or skilled in the area of placing their views up against a truly determined Bible student bent on saying "No" to almost everything they bring up.

The "rule" among many of our pastors seems to be that if a person is not already inclined to share your point of view - then "move on" until you find soneone who is open to change and willing to accept the Bible.

That is a great tactic for picking up all the low hanging fruit - but it does not begin to scratch the surface of the sort of arguments you must solve in a truly determined debate scenario.

in Christ,

Bob

[Stan]

Accountants and Treasures are not good sources of info when it comes to the Church wasting money.

Too often, they would rather everyone stay at home and just give the funds to the Conference. That way there is no liability nor Church expenses, YET at the same time they also seem to find more funding for staff in their department, because of the increase paperwork, or regulations or something else.

HMS Richards, in his biography said there must be a special dispensation for Treasurers to get into Heaven, not a new problem.

Judas was the treasurer for a small group of people about 2000 years ago. Remember what that Treasurer did for 10 pieces of Silver?

[cricket]

Accountants and Treasures are not good sources of info when it comes to the Church wasting money.

Too often, they would rather everyone stay at home and just give the funds to the Conference. That way there is no liability nor Church expenses, YET at the same time they also seem to find more funding for staff in their department, because of the increase paperwork, or regulations or something else.

HMS Richards, in his biography said there must be a special dispensation for Treasurers to get into Heaven, not a new problem.

Judas was the treasurer for a small group of people about 2000 years ago. Remember what that Treasurer did for 10 pieces of Silver?

Accountants and treasurers are often the best source of information when it comes to having a solid understanding of where church funds are distributed. Often, accountants and treasurers spend many volunteer hours calculating, recording, collecting and distributing church funds; they adhere to the laws of the land and balance the needs/wants of the church when making reports back to the church. They are often the ones responsible for balancing the church, community services, and school budgets, and are often the ones who are "booed" when it comes to explaining that the church just doesn't have enough money coming in to do everything the church wants.

[joeb]

No Debby, I don't mean being paid by the hour vs. monthly salary.

Yes a salary is payment, but payment is not necessarily a salary.

God's workers will always be supported ("paid"); their needs will be met.

The Whites were an example, as well as many before and many since.

The work was done regardless of the payment schedule.

But all faithful workers knew God would not let them down.

This helped them to exercise, and consequently develop, faith.

Which is the only requirement for salvation.

And precisely what they needed to possess, in order to share it.

(One cannot share what one does not have.)

It may seem a subtle or semantic difference (salary vs. pay/support),

but the one single element all pastors need above all others is faith.

With faith they will move mountains to inspire the greatest group,

as you said earlier.

[Quotations in this forum are deleted by Tom Wetmore,

thus not the most appropriate venue.}

I understand your argument, but is the workman worthy of his wages?

[joeb]

Accountants and Treasures are not good sources of info when it comes to the Church wasting money.

Too often, they would rather everyone stay at home and just give the funds to the Conference. That way there is no liability nor Church expenses, YET at the same time they also seem to find more funding for staff in their department, because of the increase paperwork, or regulations or something else.

HMS Richards, in his biography said there must be a special dispensation for Treasurers to get into Heaven, not a new problem.

Judas was the treasurer for a small group of people about 2000 years ago. Remember what that Treasurer did for 10 pieces of Silver?

[epaminondas]

Originally Posted By: Stan

Accountants and Treasures are not good sources of info when it comes to the Church wasting money.

Too often, they would rather everyone stay at home and just give the funds to the Conference. That way there is no liability nor Church expenses, YET at the same time they also seem to find more funding for staff in their department, because of the increase paperwork, or regulations or something else.

HMS Richards, in his biography said there must be a special dispensation for Treasurers to get into Heaven, not a new problem.

Judas was the treasurer for a small group of people about 2000 years ago. Remember what that Treasurer did for 10 pieces of Silver?

An it's just like a right-brained pastor not to be able to count....

Quote:

Matthew 27:3 ¶Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Be reasonable - he's only got ten fingers. Even if he took off his shoes and socks he wouldn't have been able to get to thirty. No wonder he's not a big fan of accountants and treasurers and people good with numbers.