Landmark survey reveals in-depth beliefs, perceptions of Adventist members

[olger]

Gerry Cabalo, to answer your question about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, did you know that the very concept of homosexuality did not exist in Biblical times? Nor was there a word for a homosexual person. So the very fact that the word homosexual appears in the modern text should spark some curiosity about that. The word itself didn't appear in the Bible until 1946.

Before 1946, the King James version of that text read “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Effeminate is translated from the Greek word "malakos" which means, literally, soft, flexible, delicate, often used in description of luxurious clothing. Its figurative meanings included weak, un-manly, not a strong warrior, coward, not in possession of the superior qualities of men/inferior like a woman, as well as the young call-boys in Greek society and the passive partner in a male-to-male homosexual act. It is not possible to know specifically which meaning was intended in the Biblical text, but even if the "passive partner" meaning applies, that's more specific than a general label of homosexual. Nor does it apply to females. In actual fact, there was no connotation of effeminacy in the practice of homosexual acts in ancient Greece. Homosexual acts were a normal part of being male, and being womanly/weak/effeminate was a separate concept. The modern application of the word malakos in Greece is equivalent to effeminate, or sissy. That's a way to ridicule men who don't embody macho characteristics, but it's not as specific as homosexual, even when that is implied.

"Abusers of themselves with mankind" is translated from the Greek "arsenokoites" which appears to be a word Paul coined or borrowed from the Leviticus passage you quoted above. 2000 years ago, the common interpretation was that Paul was referring to temple prostitutes. It was not a word in common enough usage for modern scholars to develop a confident, comparative definition for. Unless, of course, they have an agenda to fit.

There is plenty more on these words and their potential interpretations available for your perusal all over the internet, from many different angles and with many different conclusions. To me, the very fact that the word "homosexual" was inserted into the Biblical text in 1946 and came from imprecise English translations of Greek words that are not well defined and/or ambiguous is enough to give me pause.

Like I said, I'm not here to convince anyone and I don't need to be right. I'm sharing this information because you asked. Clearly I disagree on the finer points of homosexuality and morality with everyone here, but I agree with several on what's important. Not shutting people out with fear and misapplied judgment, but loving people with the unconditional love of Christ and praying for the Holy Spirit to speak to everyone according to their own walk with God. And trusting God to fulfill His promises. I will be praying for all of you, especially those who are living in fear. That can't be any fun.

I may have missed it so forgive me for asking. Are you involved in the homosexual lifestyle? It sounded like you were defending it for personal reasons.

rejoice always,

`G

[olger]

Quote:

We can say that sin leads to death.

Amen! Duh!

And I would like to add, mankind in general is still here, not as a result of continuing to sample the forbidden fruit, but as a result of refusing to accept the gift of repentance that would bring the change necessary to allow entrance into the eternal Kingdom.

God cares!

AMEN

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The early explorers of flight were viewed as defying God's natural laws and dire predictions of God's judgment were pronounced.

When one considers the amount of innocent lives that have been lost as a direct result of bombs being dropped from those flying above, it would seem not only does man misuse all of the freedom given him in knowledge by the Creator, it is not difficult to see why some believe more knowledge is a detriment.

After all, it was more knowledge gained that put the human race in jeopardy in the first place.

"“Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. At that moment their eyes were opened,"Genesis 3:1-7 NLT

God allows man free choice in his fallen condition, not because he's always going to be better off as a result of his choice, but as an accommodation that he/she might learn what man's plans without regard to Divine instruction can lead to.

God cares!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Well, I guess for some they need rules, rather than natural consequences of actions. I used to see the 10c's as rules, but gave that up a long time ago. My belief is that Christ simply wants the best for his creation and does not have a check list. He gave us a brain and made us in His image and then asked us to use it and reflect the creator through our lives. When we are constantly watching the rules and making sure we are not breaking them, the focus is turned in the wrong direction, to ourselves and others. Any way.........to each his own!

Very well said, CoAspen. AMEN!

[Enabled]

I agree with ClubV12 here.

Though I don't think we should always label past sinners as recovering. I was an alcoholic with a drug problem for many years while maintaining a good job and relationship, Yet I was convicted it was a poor way of using my life and completely gave it up. I retain to this day an addictive nature, workaholic etc. For the record I did not find Christ until a number of years after giving up addictive substances. I would also add I have never again struggled with or even been tempted to go back to any of my previous addictions, I know many like myself. Generalizing is not always well placed. This said though I wasn't a Christian at the time, I give the Spirit of Christ full credit for the conviction to give up substance abuse. I believe we should avoid things that were a problem for us in the past but never underestimate the power of Christ to completely change our propensities apart from our nature. This is what he offers all men.

[olger]

"And such were some of you !!"

[ClubV12]

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed:

God, I thank you that I am not like other people,,robbers, evildoers, adulterers, people who need a written law...

[Enabled]

I am glad ClubV12 that "I am not like other people,robbers, evildoers, adulterers, people who need a written law..." for I am through grace alone not like these today, and tomorrow all depends on my heart.

[ClubV12]

Many, are those who say should do away with the law, because grace, love, inclusion, Jesus in your heart are all that are required.

What then shall we do with the prophecy that speaks of Gods people in the last days, "Here are they that keep the commandments..."?

A.T. Jones, a man I greatly respect and used of God to bring us a wonderful message of righteousness by faith. In later life he was counseled by Sister White that he had taken that message to far into grace and was leaving the law behind.

We ARE saved by grace, and understanding this we WILL see the beauty in the law. Most important we will keep the law from a heart filled with love and admiration for the great price paid for our redemption. To reject the law, is to reject grace.

[Enabled]

The express image of His Father in us. A perfect heart of service is the outworking of the Law. The spirit of Christ, is the mind of the Father. Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus. By Faith we receive the impress of the mind of Christ and follow its dictates willingly. We are thus filled with the spirit daily drinking from the river of life, made pure and Holy. Every propensity becomes that of Christ and our fallen nature is overcome. What a promise.

[CoAspen]

RULE:

a prescribed guide for conduct or action

LAW:

a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority

In the Biblical record we do not find a 'written' law(10c's) until after the many years of captivity. God is establishing to the Israelites who their new leader is in a way they could understand based on the history of their captivity. We know from the words of Christ and even from EGW, that these were to become a function of how we relate to God and others. Not laws and rules to stand in judgment or be afraid of, but rather a way of life. Does a person 'need' a rule/law on how to treat or love their spouse? Is that what keeps the relationship going? If we are constantly looking to the rule/law for guidance, what are we learning? God wants for humans to have a way of life that is natural to them in their experience with Him, not one out of fear of breaking a law/rule. Do we want our children to have a relationship based of an adherence to our rules or one of love? It may start as an understanding of rule/law but growth means it becomes an understanding of how a healthy relationship is built and continues. We have to outgrow the obedience to the law/rule to one of understanding relational love and respect. God does not want to control us.

[ClubV12]

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

[Bravus]

Is there a distinction between God's laws and the rules for being a member of the SDA club?

[Bravus]

And how did Jesus our Example balance law and inclusion?

[ClubV12]

I don't believe there is a distinction between Gods laws and the Seventh-day Adventist Church law. However, Pauls advice cannot be discounted concerning ANY law, civil, Church, man. That is, we must obey God first and always. Gods laws are MUCH more than the "ten". Moses expounded on that with his book going into DETAIL of how to apply the law and we can see many worthy "principles" in that. PRINCIPLES of the law are critical because this is how each one of us, individually, become aware of what is sin for us which may not be sin for the next person.

The Jewish people added a large number of rules and laws on top of the ten and Moses. Many of these laws Jesus disregarded. But where they did not represent a direct conflict with the laws of God, He honored them. He was obeying the "law" of honoring those placed in a position of leadership or power by His Father. Civil as well as Church. Just as we should obey police or military IF and WHEN possible without conflict with Gods law. He was obeying the law of "respect the leader of your people", the High Priest, for instance. Even though, like Paul, He was certainly aware of the corruption in leadership, civilly as well as spiritually. Jesus viewed the Roman soldiers are servants of God in the same way Babylon was called a servant of God when it captured Israel. God is ALWAYS in control, ALWAYS. HE sets up leaders and rulers, though they retain free will, are human, make serious mistakes on occasion, God remains in control.

Inclusion:

To be "excommunicated" from the synagoge was a terrible thing in those days, it could put you, your house even your life in danger! So it was very serious to fight against the "Church". But there is a good PRINCIPLE involved and one authorized by Gods law. Those that are in direct violation of Gods law, open sin, were to be "removed from the camp", even executed. This basic law was carried out by the Jewish Nation in the correct manner many times. Just as it was abused many times!

The early Church recognized the principle of this law and did not abandon it, they embraced it! An early dispute was Jewish Christians declaring Gentile Christians MUST be circumcised. A God given law under the old covenant which no longer applied to any Christian. The "General Conference" met, decided the matter, and sent out letters to the Churches instructing them on how to handle this and other matters. That became "Church Law", based on Gods law and those who refused to follow it could find themselves being disciplined by their local Church. Even disfellowshipped, "delivered to the devil for correction" I believe is how Paul stated it. Not for "punishment" but so they could see how serious it is to disobey Gods law, which WILL lead to death at some point!!

The Seventh-day Adventist Church follows these same principles today in establishing Church law. There are about a dozen Church laws that if violated can result in disfellowship. Thats the way it has ALWAYS been since the beginning. There may well be occasions where the Church has failed, misapplied the law. I believe for the most part, they get it right. But there still human.

BECAUSE they are human some say we should not, will not, submit to their leadership, or perhaps they feel leadership is wrong, corrupt or whatever. This action is FAR TO OFTEN sin in and of itself for violating the law of honoring and submitting to those appointed by God to lead!

The balance between Pauls sound advice, obey God first, man second, honor Gods chosen leaders, has always been difficult to find. Thats why it's called a "a narrow path".

[Bravus]

Right, that's Paul.

Now, Jesus? You know, the 'Christ' in 'Christian'?

[CoAspen]

Bravus,

Yes, there is a difference. Club rules are an interpretation of God's 'Law', while Christ expect us to follow Him and show we have accepted Him by our actions. .ORGS can/are exclusive while Christs Church is open for anyone at any time. Do our children have to obey a certain set of rules/laws to always be our children? Do we cast them out when they disobey? The .org can and does 'cast out'. So, yes there is a difference, at least in the way I see it.

They question still remains, is there growth expected beyond strict adherence/obedience?

[ClubV12]

Christ, Paul, same principles, same lifestyle, no difference now for any Christian. Christ was not a leader of the Church, He personally had a different responsibility from Paul and the early Church leadership. He submitted to authority, totally! He called many, but did not accept them all into His Kingdom. Same, same, today.

I didn't make the rules, God did and He instructed the Church, His chosen people at any given time, to follow them.

Adam and Eve were the first to be "excluded", "disfellowshipped". Paul had to deal with sexual immorality, nothing new here.

Eve misinterpreted Gods rules, Satan told her it was OK to ignore them, CoAspen!

[ClubV12]

It appears, Bravus, that you have a major misconception of how Jesus deals with sin.

Check out some of the stories in the Old Testament for openers, on how He dealt with sin in those days. That guy gathering sticks for a fire on the Sabbath? Killed him. Why? Because that guy was in "open sin", he KNEW it was wrong, he didn't care and he did it boldy to showoff to everyone that he didn't take God seriously.

When Jesus healed some He told them, "Go and sin no more". That wasn't a "suggestion", it was a command. He didn't take all the thiefs on the cross, He took ONE, who believed on Him, asked for mercy and wanted Jesus to remember Him.

God, Jesus, they mean what they say, say what they mean. Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord" is going to be OK, they are going to die a second death, eternally.

When He said, "Fear God", to the wicked, they need, should and better read that like, "Tremble, be afraid, your life is on the line, that wicked man will die." Followed by, "Come unto me... and live."

[Bravus]

Let me make it simple: try to establish your position sticking to the red words.

[ClubV12]

Lets DO make it simple, what part of my "Keep my commandments" don't know you understand?

Your misconceptions are, again, apparently, locking you into a belief that Jesus accepts everybody, no questions asked, and that all we be saved, no matter what. And that simply cannot be shown by anything in the bible or in the red words.

Perhaps your trying to understand what Jesus would do about those in the LGBT group? We know the answer, because Paul, under the inspiration of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost specifically dealt with sexual immorality.

So, lets keep it simple, what are you REALLY asking?

Reject Paul? The Pharisees rejected John the Baptist and Jesus rejected them because they had refused to hear His ambassador. Just sayin'... they refused to "submit" to one He had sent as a leader, one with authority to speak on His behalf and they were "excluded", "disfellowshipped". That happens a LOT in the bible.

[CoAspen]

Have you read anything I have posted or are you looking through dark glasses??

[Your misconceptions are, again, apparently, locking you into a belief that Jesus accepts everybody, no questions asked, and that all we be saved, no matter what.]

Has not been said or implied!!

I have said several times that following Christ is judged by how we relate to Him and others. We grow in understanding, no longer being afraid of the law/rules because our eyes are focused on Jesus and what He has done for us. Do you really understand what it means to follow Christ? Is it all about rules/laws for you? Law/rules don't save us! Trusting and believing in Christ saves us!

You haven't answered any of my questions about relationships vs rules/laws, but continue to pound on 'you have to...you have to...', which is not the God that Christ came to exonerate because of the misconceptions taught by the religious leaders of His day.

The only "misconceptions" here, are by you! Now you try and drag the conversation away by saying its about LGBT group! When all else fails....eh....?

[ClubV12]

Uh, this thread is primarily about the gay agenda CoAspen. That was a major issue in the original post.

We keep our eyes on Jesus, we are saved by His righteousness, no doubt about it. As we grow two things happen: We learn more about keeping the law in the spirit of love. We learn how much God hates sin, the cost paid to redeem us and we see our "filthy rags". We love AND fear (literally) God as we grow, maybe your not there yet, maybe you don't understand the cost of sin, the price paid and how much God HATES SIN. The 144,000 are in extreme anguish of soul as they recount their life of sin and understand more and more, "Who can stand before a Holy God?"

The tone of the questions and comments, as it relates to the LGBT question, have been along the lines of "acceptance", "inclusion", "justification", "love", "mercy", for the LGBT group. Yes all that applies, but they are also going to die if they don't keep the law by refraining from sexual immorality. They have every reason in the world to "fear God", literally!

And I tell you the truth, there will be blood on the hands of those that lie to them and tell them everything is going to be OK. It's not, it's a life and death issue.

[ClubV12]

Seventh-day Adventist PRIMARY MISSION:

First angel:

"I saw again another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, 'Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.'" (Revelation 14:6,7 KJV)

[Bravus]

Not rejecting anything, but any doctrine that cannot be founded *at all* in the words of Jesus himself is, in my view, weaker than those that can.

Jesus had a bad reputation for hanging out with the drunks and the prostitutes and the sinners. He didn't condone their actions, but he loved and included them in his love.

He was not setting up a fence to keep people out, but on the contrary said 'go into the highways and the byways and compel them to come in'.

What did Jesus do? Seems to me like doing the same is the best way to live.