The Authority of the General Conference in Session

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't see the issue as being whether to ordain or not to ordain, but rather what is our sense of church unity in the body of Christ. Sometimes people arise in the church with a new doctrine that is contrary to the established doctrine of the church, and how can we say to them we need to abide by the doctrine of the world church if we ignore things the world church has decided when we disagree with it.

* * *

As Gregory said, this is not an issue of doctrine and that matter of women was address in EGW's time, specifically affirming that women could participate in preaching and teaching and leadership in the Church.  And the documented facts are that women were very much involved in those days.

When you say it is not about whether to ordain or not, you are correct on one level but are missing the point, or rather avoiding the point, on another level.

First, it really isn't about ordination at all for most on both sides of the debate.  It is about the role of women in the church.  It will not matter  at all whether it is decided to ordain women if women are not accepted and allowed to engage in pastoral ministry.  Most that are opposed to ordaining women really just don't want to allow women as pastors whether ordained or not.  Ordination is just the final point, in a long line of arguments, to stall and avoid the real issue.

And brings me the unity issue.  That is also just another argument to avoid actually dealing with and deciding the issue.  Talk about anything but the real issue.  And the fear inducing diversionary topic to create associational angst, the better.  Hit the panic button in those undecided or uninformed and they become frozen in fear, unable to deal with the real issue and move forward.  And from the perspective of those leading in the opposition camp, not moving forward or allowing others to move forward accomplishes their goal perfectly.  And then we get to wander in the wilderness another 40 years and hope that a new generation is willing to move forward face the "giants" squarely and honestly, just as our Church founders did at the very beginning of the journey of this Church.  

[rasell]

So, from this perspective, one cannot say that there is a new, established doctrine that prevents women from being ordained.  That simply is not true.

And, it should be remembered that  for a number of years, as is well known,  the SDA Church gave Ellen White the credentials of an ordained minister and so listed her in the official records of the denomination.  She accepted those documents, without rebuke.  She must not have felt it was a sin for a female to be ordained.

I suspect that those who are strongly against ordination of women would see it as a doctrinal issue based on the interpretation of certain Biblical texts. And those who are for women's ordination may see it that way too. If people feel strong something is right or wrong based on the interpretation of the Bible, it becomes a doctrinal issue.

[rasell]

 And brings me the unity issue.  That is also just another argument to avoid actually dealing with and deciding the issue.

​​​If unity cannot be achieved sometimes its better to wait until there is a consensus. In 1888 there was not agreement about righteousness by faith so the issue was left, but by 1889 there was agreement and it was accepted.

[Tom Wetmore]

If you will take the time to read the TOSC materials, I think you will find that it really is not a doctrinal issue from the perspective of either side of the debate.  That fact is a major factor in the proposed action that will be before the Session this summer.  Read it carefully. Not a matter of doctrine, a matter of policy and practice.  Big difference.  Sadly now many of those vehemently opposed are engaginging in a media fear mongering campaign within church circles to distort, obfuscate, and reframe the issue as something quite different. Repeated sensationalistic headlines and banners about an impending crisis, proclaiming that we are all at risk of various paths to doom.  

 

And that brings me to the harping about unity.  Or more precisely, the fear mongering that this will bring disunity, even a split in the Church, that it is tantamount to the prophesied shaking, etc.  Your observation about the 1888 experience suggests a short one year and everything was all better. I am no expert on that issue and its history, but I don't recall it was that way or that soon or that simple.  I don't think that the history subsequent to that shows a genuine adoption of  RBF.   But to the issue under discussion, this is not going to cause disunity.   This has been an issue since the very beginning of the Adventist Church.  In my lifetime, all my adult life, more than 40 years now the issue has been studied, debated, discussed and steps take to implement having more women involved in pastoral ministry.   In all this years, where is the evidence of fracture because of women being engaged in ministry?  It is not women in pastoral ministry or  ordaining them that is the catalyst for disunity.  It is the hardening of the hearts of the opposition that we see trying desperately to thwart it at all cost that is fomenting a spirit of disunity, even threatening a crisis or worse if this does move forward.  

[Tom Wetmore]

And I have heard tell of increased evidence of a spirit of unity growing around this issue.  It seems that the only sense of a spirit of disunity and discord is coming from the camp of those opposed to WO and women in ministry.  That should tell you something.  

 

[rasell]

And I have heard tell of increased evidence of a spirit of unity growing around this issue.  It seems that the only sense of a spirit of disunity and discord is coming from the camp of those opposed to WO and women in ministry.  That should tell you something.  

 

​For me the important issue is that we preach the three angels' message and be united in that. I'm happy to accept what the GC decides on this issue whichever way it goes. Sometimes a spirit if humility and brotherly love is needed when there are divisions over an issue. Without unity the Holy Spirit cannot be poured out. It was the antagonistic spirit of Minneapolis that delayed the second coming. Out battle should be against Satan, not against one another. So we can uphold the righteousness of Christ and the 10 Commandments and the soon return of Jesus.

[Johann]

How important is the fulfillment of this prophecy:

 

Psalm 68:11 New International Version (NIV)

¹¹ The Lord announces the word,
    and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng:

 

^?

[Kevin H]

It could be very important since Satan is trying so hard to stop it

[Tom Wetmore]

Is this yet another reflection of male influenced in the Church that lead to an intentional effort by translator's to downplay the role of women?  KJV and a number of translations make no mention of women being the proclaimers of the good news.  A significant number of translations specifically identify the vast throng to be women.  

[joeb]

If this women's ordination controversy was only over the role of women in the church, and ordination is basically meaningless in the controversy, then there should be no controversy, period.  Women participate on almost every level of the church now.  They are involved in local leadership. They are involved at the GC level, and all levels in between. They preach.  They teach.  They do everything men do.  So what's the big deal about if oridination isn't really at the bottom of these political fights.  And that's all this is is politics. 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

They do everything men do.

False.

Under the present system:

A woman can be elected as a Vice-President of the General Conference has has been so elected, but she cannot b elected as General Conference President.

 

The above is only one example.  There are others.  In any case, I have shown your statement to be false.

 

 

 

[Stan]

hi Joeb, they also can not organize companies.  Which I do not think is a biggie anyway.

[Johann]

Is it a struggle for power, claiming the male has a divine right to rule?

[Stan]

As a church we have rejected most of what was instituted by the Church of Rome , in the 3rd Century, except the rule of Governance, that we are currently using.  The new testament was a different model, which had every believer a minister, and not the tight structure we have today. 

 

The Priesthood is over. Pastors are not priest, nor to be compared to them..

 

Just my opinion, other friends differ from me, and we are still friends.

[Unchained]

I don't see the issue as being whether to ordain or not to ordain, but rather what is our sense of church unity in the body of Christ. Sometimes people arise in the church with a new doctrine that is contrary to the established doctrine of the church, and how can we say to them we need to abide by the doctrine of the world church if we ignore things the world church has decided when we disagree with it.

Ellen White said that every one who has arisen with some false doctrine claimed to be following the Bible. And while the Bible is the ultimate rule of faith, are we going to say that only our interpretation is correct and the whole world church is in error? This is where some humility is needed and caution.

I accept that in the time of Luther the church was corrupt, but the SDA Church is God's remnant church of Bible Prophecy, and when the whole world church represented by its delegates comes to a decision I think we need to consider that in humility and for the sake of unity.

​

We all agree that until the end there will be false doctrines and deceptions, yet there is also a real danger in assuming that “new doctrines” that perhaps goes against some of our ideas automatically are wrong! Luther wasn't the only one that had to battle the errors of tradition; pretty much every reformer in every age have had to combat misconceptions and errors held by the majority. Nobody would for instance have listened to William Miller if the people in the protestant churches had insisted on only listening to ideas that their denominations had put their seal of approval on.

We have many lessons to learn, and believe it or not, we might even have a few lessons to unlearn!

“New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.” - CSW p.34

 

 

 

[Guest]

How important is the fulfillment of this prophecy:

 

 

^?

​The prophecy in Joel speaks of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit of men and women which began at Pentecost. God fulfills prophecy in His own time and way.

[Guest]

​

We all agree that until the end there will be false doctrines and deceptions, yet there is also a real danger in assuming that “new doctrines” that perhaps goes against some of our ideas automatically are wrong! Luther wasn't the only one that had to battle the errors of tradition; pretty much every reformer in every age have had to combat misconceptions and errors held by the majority. Nobody would for instance have listened to William Miller if the people in the protestant churches had insisted on only listening to ideas that their denominations had put their seal of approval on.

We have many lessons to learn, and believe it or not, we might even have a few lessons to unlearn!

“New light will ever be revealed on the word of God to him who is in living connection with the Sun of Righteousness. Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God. Many gems are yet scattered that are to be gathered together to become the property of the remnant people of God.” - CSW p.34

 

 

 

​The church does have a system for new light, starting with the local pastor and potentially going to the GC in Session. I think the brethren need to be convinced by Scriptural arguments. The problem at the moment is that both sides are using the Bible but with opposite conclusions. In Acts 15 those opposed were convinced when they heard stories of how the Holy Spirit had fallen on the Gentiles, and then by Scripture prophesing the inclusion of the Gentiles.

[Johann]

Do we need to be reminded of what happens in China?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes!

[Tom Wetmore]

There are numerous examples of the blessing of God on the pastoral ministry of women.  Pastoral Ministry is a gift of the Holy Spirit.  See Ephesians 4:11.  We are told in Scripture and  through EGW that the fruit of this gift of the HS is souls won to Christ.  We reflect that very point in our only Church policies as proof of the call to pastoral ministry.  We note the fruit of the calling as readiness for ordination.  There should be no doubt that the women that are pastors in China show this proof of the calling.  And there are numerous examples elsewhere  of women in ministry bringing souls to Christ.  I have witnessed it many times.

One issue that has come to light in this whole current debate is giving credit where credit is due on this evidence of the call to ministry.  Before it was allowed for commissioned ministers to baptize, the baptism had to be by an ordained minister, barring unusual circumstances.  It was very easy for that ordained minister to be credited of such baptisms.  Now that commissioned minister, including women, are permitted to baptize, the credit is less likely to be given to someone else.  I also understand that in areas of the world where women are not being allowed to serve in pastoral ministry, this has become recognized as a significant problem.  In some areas baptisms are not just proof of the call to ministry but also serve as a barometer of the success of a minister and lead to more temporal rewards.  When women do the work of bringing people to Christ and getting them ready for baptism, they get little or no credit, since they are not officially recognized as performing pastoral ministry.  But the ordained minister that does the baptisms does get the credit.  Is it little wonder that with little or no recognition of their efforts people in those areas doubt the calling to ministry of these women?

This really is the crux of the question I ask those who are opposed to WO.  Have you ever been a part of a congregation with women as pastors? Have you ever worked with women pastors? Have you ever witnessed the evidence of a women's call to ministry?  The lack of experience with women in ministry, or at best limited exposure to female pastors, is very often a very significant correlation to opposition to women in pastoral ministry and recognition of it through ordination.   That is why more needs to be done to shine a bright light on the work of women in ministry.  

 

[Unchained]

​The church does have a system for new light, starting with the local pastor and potentially going to the GC in Session. I think the brethren need to be convinced by Scriptural arguments. The problem at the moment is that both sides are using the Bible but with opposite conclusions. In Acts 15 those opposed were convinced when they heard stories of how the Holy Spirit had fallen on the Gentiles, and then by Scripture prophesing the inclusion of the Gentiles.

​I don't think we can trust a “system” unless the majority of the people in responsible positions are converted. God's chosen people had a system in previous times too, yet the Sanhedrin chose to reject the person who was the Truth and the Way.

But yes, we agree that the way forward is to open our hearts to the Holy Spirit and word of God. But whether or not the delegates present at the GC session will do the right thing depends wholly on whether or not their hearts are receptive to the Spirit.

[rasell]

​I don't think we can trust a “system” unless the majority of the people in responsible positions are converted. God's chosen people had a system in previous times too, yet the Sanhedrin chose to reject the person who was the Truth and the Way.

But yes, we agree that the way forward is to open our hearts to the Holy Spirit and word of God. But whether or not the delegates present at the GC session will do the right thing depends wholly on whether or not their hearts are receptive to the Spirit.

​When I read the Church Manual and 28 Fundamental Beliefs, I am satisfied that this is the truth which accords with the Word of God, and that the SDA Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy.

[Pickle]

This really is the crux of the question I ask those who are opposed to WO.  Have you ever been a part of a congregation with women as pastors? Have you ever worked with women pastors? Have you ever witnessed the evidence of a women's call to ministry?

I got to hear a sermon by a female pastor that said that Abraham was justified when he partly obeyed God, since he was disobeying God by taking Lot with him when he left Haran for Canaan. She also said that circumcision was an act of faith, since what if the knife slips. I was not impressed, and neither was a large group of the attendees.

I also got to hear a sermon by another female pastor that started with a clip from a movie that included profanity.

Somehow I don't think this is the kind of thing Ellen White had in mind when she advocated that women should be involved in ministry.

[CoAspen]

....and you never heard anything said by a 'male' pastor that you didn't approve of......what does the Bible say about gossiping......

[B/W Photodude]

I got to hear a sermon by a female pastor that said that Abraham was justified when he partly obeyed God, since he was disobeying God by taking Lot with him when he left Haran for Canaan. She also said that circumcision was an act of faith, since what if the knife slips. I was not impressed, and neither was a large group of the attendees.

I also got to hear a sermon by another female pastor that started with a clip from a movie that included profanity.

Somehow I don't think this is the kind of thing Ellen White had in mind when she advocated that women should be involved in ministry.

​

Not the first time I have heard of female pastors giving inappropriate and wrong sermons. Won't be the last. 

I suspect that the crowd that will be ordaining regardless of the fact that it has been voted down twice in GC would be more likely to go off the deep end and make ridiculous statements from the pulpit. One female pastor has been know to discuss women's panties during her sermon and told the audience to forget everything they ever knew about Revelation!