The man of Romans 7

[LifeHiscost]

Salvation is God's work FOR man through Christ. The Book of Life is the record of who will make it to the new heaven and the new earth.  It simply records who were saved, are being saved, and who will ultimately be saved. The Book of Life did not save, does not save and will not save.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 

15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 

 

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.  

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Robert

[LifeHiscost]

Salvation can occur without the existence of a book of life.  Let's start with this.

 

 

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.....Revelation 21

 

God is Love

[LifeHiscost]

Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 

15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 

 

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.  

 

¹⁴ If it is the adherents of the Law who are to be the heirs, then faith is made futile and empty of all meaning and the promise [of God] is made void (is annulled and has no power)....Romans 4

Notice the 2nd word "If' at the beginning of the first text. The inference is that the following logic is not true.

Romans 5:18 points out transgression results in condemnation, not the Law.

16 Nor is the free gift at all to be compared to the effect of that one [man’s] sin. For the sentence [following the trespass] of one [man] brought condemnation, whereas the free gift [following] many transgressions brings justification (an act of righteousness)....Romans 5
 

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law....1 John 3
 

23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God....Romans 3 

 

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;…Romans 3

 

The saints that find their final home in heaven will be abiding in the rules established from the beginning.

 

12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus....Revelation 14

 

16For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity. 17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;…Proverbs 24

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[pnattmbtc]

It seemed to me that your position above sits well with salvation by works. You seem to believe that people are not saved unless they put in something in the basket first and then written in the Book of Life: Believe - Saved - Written. ....

Robert:I agree with your assessment.

This whole line of thought comes from Wieland, who I think is terrific.  The language Samie is using is practically copied from him (about the basket)

Please deal with the points I'm making rather than speculate.

[Samie]

Sorry, brother. I am not a copycat. I don't even know who Wieland is. I am not a wide-reader as you may be.  If it so happened that a phrase or two in what I posted (about the basket) is 100% the same as that of Wieland, then perhaps we share a common inspiration.  I give credit to whom credit is due (Rom 13:7).

[pnattmbtc]

Salvation can occur without the existence of a book of life.  Let's start with this.

 

 

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which arewritten in the Lamb's book of life.....Revelation 21

Since you just quoted a verse with no comment, I'll have to guess as to your intent.

Me: "Salvation can occur without the existence of a book of life.  Let's start with this."

You:  There's a verse that mentioned the "book of life", so what you asserted is incorrect.  Salvation cannot occur without the book of life.

 

Assuming this is correctly representing your train of thought, my point is that the book of life is a record of reality, but doesn't create the reality.  To start with, books were the common technology of the time, so, of course, that's the language they would have used.  Now we know about computers, so there could just as easily be a "Lamb computer record of life," but then again, God is omniscient, so why would He need any sort of book or computer?  God needs no record at all, since He knows everything.  The salient fact is that God knows who the redeemed are, and only those whom God knows will enter in.  The book is not the operating factor in terms of salvation, but merely a record of it.  The interaction between the believer and God is what's important.

In the future, please include some sort of thought or comment along with verses you cite, as I really don't know if my guess about your intent is correct or not.

[pnattmbtc]

Salvation is God's work FOR man through Christ. The Book of Life is the record of who will make it to the new heaven and the new earth.  It simply records who were saved, are being saved, and who will ultimately be saved. The Book of Life did not save, does not save and will not save.

Well said.

[pnattmbtc]

Sorry, brother. I am not a copycat. I don't even know who Wieland is. I am not a wide-reader as you may be.  If it so happened that a phrase or two in what I posted (about the basket) is 100% the same as that of Wieland, then perhaps we share a common inspiration.  I give credit to whom credit is due (Rom 13:7).

I'm not saying you're a copy-cat, but that I'm familiar with the ideas involved, and I was against meaning being imputed to my statements where I didn't comment.  That is, rather than disagreeing with things I haven't even said, please ask questions for clarification, rather than just guess.

[pnattmbtc]

 I answer that the faith of the believing parents covers the children

Jack stated some believe this way (see # 4).  The problem with this view is that parents can't exercise faith for another.  It also makes "faith" a co-Savior. 

Not necessarily.  The parent's faith can *influence* the children, and have an impact on their character.  It is not necessarily the case that the faith of one person is being counted for another, which doesn't make sense, for the reason you pointed out.  This is the reason I included the quote, so that the whole train of thought could be seen.

Also, you are making Ellen White the final word.  She is not.  The Bible is and I've used it to prove my position. 

This is an assertion, as if simply quoting someone makes them the final authority.  The same point would hold to your quoting Jack Sequeira.  If we're going to think along these lines, we might as well never quote anybody.

Regarding using the Bible to prove your position, what are you talking about?  Is it this?

1.Every person is born in a saved position, until the age of accountability.

2.At the instant a person reaches the age of accountability, they become lost, unless they accept Christ.

[Samie]

This whole line of thought comes from Wieland, who I think is terrific.  The language Samie is using is practically copied from him (about the basket)

Sorry if I interpreted your above post as saying I am a copycat. 

I'm not saying you're a copy-cat, but that I'm familiar with the ideas involved, and I was against meaning being imputed to my statements where I didn't comment.  That is, rather than disagreeing with things I haven't even said, please ask questions for clarification, rather than just guess.

Well said, brother.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie:Salvation is God's work FOR man through Christ. The Book of Life is the record of who will make it to the new heaven and the new earth.  It simply records who were saved, are being saved, and who will ultimately be saved. The Book of Life did not save, does not save and will not save.

Very good.  So let's put things with language that doesn't use the book of life, and see if we're in agreement as to your position.

Your position is that God chooses everyone to be saved, and everyone will be saved, unless, after the age of accountability, they do not overcome evil with good.  This is correct? 

[Robert]

1.Every person is born in a saved position, until the age of accountability.

2.At the instant a person reaches the age of accountability, they become lost, unless they accept Christ.

I don't know about "at the instant".

By "lost" you mean "under law"?  "Under law" is not lost.  Under law is a condition no one should stay in.  To remain under the law and to harden one's heart is a bad receipt that leads damnation (i.e., "lost")

Edited August 4, 2015 by Robert

[pnattmbtc]

1.Every person is born in a saved position, until the age of accountability.

2.At the instant a person reaches the age of accountability, they become lost, unless they accept Christ.

Robert: I don't know about "at the instant".

By "lost" you mean "under law"?  "Under law" is not lost.  Under law is a condition no one should stay in.  To remain under the law and to harden one's heart is a bad receipt that leads damnation (i.e., "lost")

By "under law", you mean "under the jurisdiction of the law", is what I understand.  You're thought is that:

1.A person is born not under the jurisdiction of the law, and so will be taken to heaven if the person died, before the age of accountability.

2.A person at the age of accountability moves from the condition of not under the jurisdiction of the law to under the jurisdiction of the law, and at this point remains in danger of being lost, if they refuse the drawing of the Holy Spirit, who is trying to get them to accept the gospel.

3.If they accept the gospel, they are no under the jurisdiction of the law (just like in #1).

Does this accurately represent your thought? 

[Samie]

Very good.  So let's put things with language that doesn't use the book of life, and see if we're in agreement as to your position.

Your position is that God chooses everyone to be saved, and everyone will be saved, unless, after the age of accountability, they do not overcome evil with good.  This is correct? 

God had saved everyone through Christ, is saving everyone through Christ, and will save everyone through Christ UNLESS one decided not to and did not overcome evil with good.

The past tense (saved) is evidenced by the writing of everyone's names in the book of life, the present tense is evidenced by the non-deletion of names while still alive, the future tense is dependent upon one's decision and action to overcome evil with good or not while he was still alive.

[Samie]

My previous post summarizes my position and applies to everyone - Adam & Eve and all their descendants, no one left out nor exempted.  One can read more at the thread Understanding the Gospel Through the Book of Life.

[Robert]

 

You're thought is that:

1.A person is born not under the jurisdiction of the law, and so will be taken to heaven if the person died, before the age of accountability.

2.A person at the age of accountability moves from the condition of not under the jurisdiction of the law to under the jurisdiction of the law, and at this point remains in danger of being lost, if they refuse the drawing of the Holy Spirit, who is trying to get them to accept the gospel.

3.If they accept the gospel, they are no under the jurisdiction of the law (just like in #1).

Does this accurately represent your thought? 

Sounds close enough....

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, thanks to both Samie and Robert for your patience.  It's a lot harder to communicate these sorts of ideas when not in person.  Questions for both of you.  I'll start with foreknowledge implications first.

As I'm understanding your view, Samie (and Robert, please feel free to chime in with your view on this), your idea depends upon God's having the ability to look into the future and see actual individuals who will exist so that He can write their name in the book, which means that future history must be fixed, as far as God's view is concerned (i.e., in God's head, future history is fixed, as evidenced by His ability to look into the future to be able to get people's names so that they can be written in the book of life).

Another Samie question.  It sounds from what you wrote that you believe that noone's name is deleted from the book of life while they are alive.  Only if a person persistently refused to overcome evil with good until death would their name be deleted.

If this is what you believe, what I believe is very close to this, in regards to people at or after the age of accountability, although I would express it differently.

For Robert, I think you believe pretty much the same thing as Samie, but you would express the condition to be lost as refusing to believe the Gospel, as opposed to not overcoming evil with good.

I think except for semantics, the three of us agree in regards to at or after the age of accountability, and the two of you agree regarding before the age of accountability.  What I believe regarding before the age of accountability is that some will be resurrected in the resurrection of the righteous, and some will not be resurrected.  In addition to infants and young children, the same principle would apply to others with similar issues (e.g. slaves or those with certain mental problems).

From my point of view, God will take everyone to heaven who would be happy there, regardless of their age when they die.  From my perspective, the age of accountability doesn't matter in terms of who will be saved or lost; that is, their status won't change one way or the other just because they've reached the age of accountability.

 

[Robert]

From my perspective, the age of accountability doesn't matter in terms of who will be saved or lost; that is, their status won't change one way or the other just because they've reached the age of accountability.

 

Okay, then you believe in an unjust system where "the law" finds one guilty no matter what the circumstance.  The Catholics do to and they call it "original sin" (which is really original guilt).

Edited August 5, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 

20 ....for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

 Guilt involves volition!

 

Volition

noun

 

1.

the act of willing, choosing, or resolving; exercise of willing:

She left of her own volition.

2.

a choice or decision made by the will.

3.

the power of willing; will.

 

Edited August 5, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

In addition to infants and young children, the same principle would apply to others with similar issues (e.g. slaves or those with certain mental problems).

 

Yes, but that believe comes from Ellen White.  Ellen states if you are going to use her prove it from the Bible.  Yes?  Prove to me that the slave who was treated like a beast will be excluded from heaven.  

[Robert]

Yes, but that belief comes from Ellen White.  Ellen states if you are going to use her prove it from the Bible.  Yes?  Prove to me that the slave who was treated like a beast will be excluded from heaven.  

“I saw that the slave-master would have to answer for the soul of his slave whom he has kept in ignorance; and all the sins of the slave will be visited upon the master. GOD cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of GOD, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate GOD can do. He lets him be as though he had not been.” (See also Early Writings, p. 276.)

[Robert]

 

GOD cannot take the slave to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of GOD, or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and not holding so elevated a position as his master's brute beasts. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate GOD can do. He lets him be as though he had not been.” (See also Early Writings, p. 276.)

You could apply this to abortion too.  Let me paraphrase:

GOD cannot take the aborted infant to heaven, who has been kept in ignorance because he hasn't had the opportunity to get to know God and His law. But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate GOD can do. He lets this aborted infant be as though he had not been.” 

I mean this is ridiculous.  Salvation is in Christ alone.  Is His hand to short to save the ignorant? Is anything impossible for God?

Also, you must remember we have sin because God allowed Lucifer to come into existence.  God, therefore, is responsible for sin's existence.  That doesn't imply that He is sin's author, but merely that He allowed it.  Therefore if someone who is ignorant or kept ignorant is lost it's His fault.  

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Does this hurt Ellen White's credibility? Yes, if you think she has the last word being God's messenger. No, because she stated the following:

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our  (Ellen White includes herself) expositions of Scripture are without error.  The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible.  Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair.  No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.  Review and Herald, December 20,1892   

[pnattmbtc]

Robert: Okay, then you believe in an unjust system where "the law" finds one guilty no matter what the circumstance.  The Catholics do to and they call it "original sin" (which is really original guilt).

Please explain your logic here.  I'm saying that nothing magical happens when the age of accountability happens.  This seems very reasonable to me, because accountability has to be something that happens gradually.  It cannot be the case that all of a sudden one reaches some magic moment in time, and everything changes.  A child becomes aware of issues a little at a time, and the knowledge of cause and effect and responsbility is gradually understood more and more.  But why would it be logical that all of a sudden a child, who would have been perfectly happy in heaven had it died, now, a moment later, wouldn't be a moment later?  The only way I could see this happening, a major change in the child's status, would be if the child were actively resisting the Holy Spirit in some way.

And what in the world does any of this have to do with "the law" or Catholics or original sin?  Really, if you're going to make statements like this you should explain what your line of thought is.

Regarding the law finding someone guilty, the perspective I'm coming from is "the law" finds no one guilty before the age of accountability.  I would think that would have been clear from my post.  I don't understand your response regarding "the law".