Reconciled to God

[8thdaypriest]

Was God reconciled to sinful man?  Or - do sinful men become reconciled to God?   Are both true? 

When did (or does) this reconciliation take place?  

    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

        The cross was a message.  God our Father was saying, “This is how much I love you.  You can come home.”  This doesn't sound like God NEEDED a sacrifice, in order for HIM to be reconciled to us.

    2 Corinthians 5:19-20 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 

This sounds like God is almost begging men to be reconciled to Him.  Sounds very much like it is mankind - and not God Himself - that needs to be reconciled.

The cross was a message from God to mankind.  This is how much a love you!!!!  Please come home!  I won't harm you. 

To continue with 2 Cor 5:19-20:

“Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.”

This verse doesn't sound like all men WERE reconciled - past tense.  It sounds like they need TO BE reconciled. 

BACK TO  2 Cor 5:19-20:

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them." 

So - God was NOT counting the trespasses of anyone - in the whole world.  No list of sins to be "forgiven".   They were already forgiven - long before Christ died.  The cross was just a message - from God - that this was so. 

Yes  Samie.  I know. 

I believe the "Book of Life" contains the names of those who have entered into covenant with God - by faith.  Their names are placed there WHEN they begin the process of reconciliation - when they "believe".  During the course of their lives, they may come to love a sin, and want to cling to that sin.  They may not trust God enough to let go of that sin.  The sin gets in the way, of the reconciliation process.  If they cling to that sin for long enough, they may discontinue the reconciliation process.  They may turn away from God.  But THEY choose the separation - not God.  He weeps to see them go, because He knows that without Him, they will die.  "Your sins have separated you from your God."

Men are finally LOST because they will not be reconciled - NOT because they have "sinned". 

[JoeMo]

AMEN, Rachel!  God freely offers salvation to all who would believe.  All we have to do is accept that forgiveness and believe that "God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.  All we have to do is believe and take the golden ticket!  Of course, the evidence of taking the golden ticket is repentance and trust - not by our own "iron-willed" perseverance; but by simply not resisting the urgings of the Holy Spirit to change us from within.

I believe Lord! Strengthen my faith!

[Samie]

Was God reconciled to sinful man?  Or - do sinful men become reconciled to God?   Are both true? 

When did (or does) this reconciliation take place?  

    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

You're almost inside the fence where I am, Rachel.

But why stop in v8?  Had you not stopped in v8 you would have arrived in v10 which says we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son and that answers your question.

Being reconciled to God means we are in Him, in Christ, attached to Him. And on the cross He did just that (Eph 2:11-19), FOR us.  The attaching PRECEDED our believing. Not the other way around.  People cannot believe while still spiritually dead. People cannot believe UNLESS attached to Him.  We can believe because we are spiritually alive, being attached to Him Who is our Life (Col 3:4).

The last portion of the OP, to me, is all about overcoming.  And overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life.

[Samie]

        The cross was a message.  God our Father was saying, “This is how much I love you.  You can come home.”  This doesn't sound like God NEEDED a sacrifice, in order for HIM to be reconciled to us.

    2 Corinthians 5:19-20 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 

This sounds like God is almost begging men to be reconciled to Him.  Sounds very much like it is mankind - and not God Himself - that needs to be reconciled.

I think that to put everything in their proper perspective, I suggest including the preceding verse:

^KJV 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Through the death of His Son, the Father has already reconciled us all to Himself (see Rom 5:10).  Christ's act of continually reconciling us by NOT imputing or counting against us the sins committed (these sins having been forgiven through the cross) is His way of justifying us each time we commit sin now, because He was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).  This way sin cannot have dominion over us anymore (Rom 6:14).  In fact this sin committed, God remembers NO MORE! (Heb 10:17).

For me, "be ye reconciled to God" (v20) is a call for us to live reconciled lives: overcome evil with good.

[JoeMo]

Through the death of His Son, the Father has already reconciled us all to Himself (see Rom 5:10).  Christ's act of continually reconciling us by NOT imputing or counting against us the sins committed (these sins having been forgiven through the cross) is His way of justifying us each time we commit sin now, because He was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).  This way sin cannot have dominion over us anymore (Rom 6:14).  In fact this sin committed, God remembers NO MORE! (Heb 10:17).

We can choose to reject that reconciliation; and God will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into the Kingdom.  Believe it or not, there are many people who know the basics of the faith; yet still maintain that they would never serve a God like that - to their loss.  Convincing them otherwise is the job of the Holy Spirit.  My job is simply to demonstrate God's love through my life.  Sometimes I'm not very good at it - well, maybe a little more than sometimes.

[8thdaypriest]

You're almost inside the fence where I am, Rachel.

But why stop in v8?  Had you not stopped in v8 you would have arrived in v10 which says we ( In context, Paul was speaking to believers, who HAD been reconciled - NOT to all men who everywhere, who had not.)  were reconciled to God by the death of His Son and that answers your question.

Being reconciled to God means we are in Him, in Christ, attached to Him. And on the cross He did just that (Eph 2:11-19), FOR us (Ephesian believers - not all men everywhere). The attaching PRECEDED our believing. (No - it didn't. The whole world was NOT attached. Humans BECOME attached WHEN they believe.)  Not the other way around. 

The CROSS was a message.  That's ALL.  It can have no effect, unless the human HEARS (understands the message) and RESPONDS with belief.

People cannot believe while still spiritually dead. (Yes - they can. They can respond to the Spirit of Christ.  This is NOT a work.)  People cannot believe UNLESS attached to Him. (Wrong)  We can believe because we are spiritually alive, being attached to Him Who is our Life (Col 3:4).

The last portion of the OP, to me, is all about overcoming. (Wrong!!  It's about trusting.)  And overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. (Sooooooo very wrong!!!).

Samie,

You and I are not even in the same ball park.

You think reconciliation is something God could just DO, without any consent or cooperation on the part of the humans.  He CAN'T!!!

God will not manipulate human minds.  He therefore COULD NOT reconcile all humans (to himself) at a moment before time began, because THAT happens in the human mind, as a result of HEARING and SEEING the evidence that God is trustworthy and forgiving.  All that God could do, was present His evidence. 

[8thdaypriest]

I think that to put everything in their proper perspective, I suggest including the preceding verse:

^KJV 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Through the death of His Son, the Father has already reconciled us all to Himself (see Rom 5:10).  Christ's act of continually reconciling us by NOT imputing or counting against us the sins committed (these sins having been forgiven through the cross) is His way of justifying us each time we commit sin now, because He was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).  This way sin cannot have dominion over us anymore (Rom 6:14).  In fact this sin committed, God remembers NO MORE! (Heb 10:17).

For me, "be ye reconciled to God" (v20) is a call for us to live reconciled lives: overcome evil with good.

Sins were not forgiven because of the cross, or in response to the cross (the response being God the Father's response).  The cross was a message, that sins HAD BEEN forgiven - long before the cross.

Which brings up the question:  If there is no list of sins in Heaven - if God does not keep a list of our sins, then WHAT is it, that is "cleansed" from the Sanctuary??????  Personally, I believe it will be the claims of Satan, claiming dominion over us, and over this earth.  

Satan is the one who keeps a list of our sins - NOT God!!! - so he can claim us as his subjects. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[JoeMo]

Samie,

You and I are not even in the same ball park.

You think reconciliation is something God could just DO, without any consent or cooperation on the part of the humans.  He CAN'T!!!

God will not manipulate human minds.  He therefore COULD NOT reconcile all humans (to himself) at a moment before time began, because THAT happens in the human mind, as a result of HEARING and SEEING the evidence that God is trustworthy and forgiving.  All that God could do, was present His evidence. 

... although I would say "WOULD NOT" rather than "COULD NOT".  God can do whatever He wants to do.  HE CHOSE to give man that choice when He gave us a free will.  He gave man a right to choose or not to choose Him.  He will honor that choice rather than force His Kingdom upon anyone.

[Samie]

We can choose to reject that reconciliation; and God will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into the Kingdom.  Believe it or not, there are many people who know the basics of the faith; yet still maintain that they would never serve a God like that - to their loss.  Convincing them otherwise is the job of the Holy Spirit.  My job is simply to demonstrate God's love through my life.  Sometimes I'm not very good at it - well, maybe a little more than sometimes.

Everyone started out in equal-footing: all were reconciled to God by the death of Christ. And those who live reconciled lives are the ones who have overcome evil with good.

You are correct in saying that "God will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into the Kingdom".  That's why non-overcomers will be blotted out from the Book of Life.  These people persistently refused to heed the pleading of the Holy Spirit to overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

The OP started out with questions:

Was God reconciled to sinful man?  Or - do sinful men become reconciled to God?   Are both true? 

When did (or does) this reconciliation take place?  

Then perhaps in an attempt to give an answer to the questions posed, Rom 5:8 was quoted. And after giving some comments on the magnanimosity of God's love quoted 2 Cor 5:19 and used this verse as a springboard to say that mankind need to be reconciled to God:

  2 Corinthians 5:19-20 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 

This sounds like God is almost begging men to be reconciled to Him.  Sounds very much like it is mankind - and not God Himself - that needs to be reconciled.

 When I initially responded I asked why Rom 5:10 was not used together with Rom 5:8.  I can only surmise that the reason behind not using Rom 5:10 is because it sorts of contradicts her teaching.  While the Bible says "we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son", the thread starter believes otherwise.

I also suggested using the verse preceding her springboard verse. And again I can just guess that the reason for not using that verse is simply because that verse - 2 Cor 5:18, just like Rom 5:10, tells us the opposite of what she is teaching.

Then comes her hermeneutics. While teaching that mankind needs to be reconciled to God based on 2 Cor 5:19, she teaches that those reconciled to God in Rom 5:10 and 2 Cor 5:18 are only those who have believed.  As if Christ did not die for every man.

[LifeHiscost]

The OP started out with questions:

 

Then comes her hermeneutics. While teaching that mankind needs to be reconciled to God based on 2 Cor 5:19, she teaches that those reconciled to God in Rom 5:10 and 2 Cor 5:18 are only those who have believed.  As if Christ did not die for every man.

Having free will, given by God, allows man in general to refuse the reconciliation, which can either be a result of being so hardened of heart we might refuse to believe God could possibly wish to fulfill what He has promised, or we could believe the deceitful lies of the enemy of souls, perhaps as Adam who wasn't deceived  or Eve who was taken in by his subterfuge.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

Having free will, given by God, allows man in general to refuse the reconciliation, which can either be a result of being so hardened of heart we might refuse to believe God could possibly wish to fulfill what He has promised, or we could believe the deceitful lies of the enemy of souls, perhaps as Adam who wasn't deceived  or Eve who was taken in by his subterfuge.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

Refusing what God has done does not NULLIFY what has been done.  Scriptures declare "we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son", and that stands true, rejected or accepted.  Truth remains truth whether believed on or not. 

That God has reconciled us to Himself does not in any way violate our free will.  The reconciling act was meant to EMPOWER man for overcoming evil. And those who choose not to live reconciled lives by overcoming evil with good will be blotted out from the Book of Life.

[Samie]

In the quote below, statements in bold blue are 8thdaypriest's; all others, mine. 

Being reconciled to God means we are in Him, in Christ, attached to Him. And on the cross He did just that (Eph 2:11-19), FOR us (Ephesian believers - not all men everywhere). The attaching PRECEDED our believing. (No - it didn't. The whole world was NOT attached. Humans BECOME attached WHEN they believe.)  Not the other way around. 

8thdaypriest believes Eph 2:11-19 are true only for Ephesian believers. She's kidding, perhaps. If not, then only Ephesian believers were attached to the Body of Christ on the cross?  Using her argument that humans become attached when they believe, then when Jesus was dying on the cross that's exactly when the Ephesians believed?  To use her favorite phrase, "doesn't make any sense at all".

Since she teaches humans become attached to Christ when they believe, it simply follows that before the attachment, humans are separate from Christ, and are therefore spiritually dead, being separate from Him Who is our Life (Col 3:4).  And separate from Him, man can do NOTHING, saith the Lord (John 15:4, 5).  But 8thdaypriest teaches humans can do SOMETHING while yet separate from Christ - they can believe.

 

[Samie]

 

You think reconciliation is something God could just DO, without any consent or cooperation on the part of the humans.  He CAN'T!!!

So these Scriptures tell a lie?

^NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

^NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

[LifeHiscost]

 But 8thdaypriest teaches humans can do SOMETHING while yet separate from Christ - they can believe.

 

This would seem to indicate otherwise. Although I would have to admit physical life itself indicates Jesus power evidenced. However we are spiritually dead until such belief in Him is exercised.

⁴ Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

⁵ “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. ⁶ If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.....John 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Samie]

This would seem to indicate otherwise. Although I would have to admit physical life itself indicates Jesus power evidenced. However we are spiritually dead until such belief in Him is exercised.

Can you please tell me how we can exercise while dead?

[8thdaypriest]

... although I would say "WOULD NOT" rather than "COULD NOT".  God can do whatever He wants to do.  HE CHOSE to give man that choice when He gave us a free will.  He gave man a right to choose or not to choose Him.  He will honor that choice rather than force His Kingdom upon anyone.

Remember the silly questions like, Can God make a rock that He cannot lift?  OR  Can God make it hot and cold in the same place at the same time? 

The reason I said "COULD NOT" is because God cannot leave our "free will" intact, and at the same time manipulate our minds.  It's either "free will" or "manipulation".  Not both. 

If God wants to be loved, if He wants a relationship, He CANNOT have that IF He takes over our minds to accomplish it.  That's not love.  Love must be freely given. 

That is why I said "all God can do is to present the evidence" concerning Himself.  We humans either respond, or reject HIM.   

[LifeHiscost]

²⁴ Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

²⁵ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

²⁶ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?  John 11

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

This would seem to indicate otherwise. Although I would have to admit physical life itself indicates Jesus power evidenced. However we are spiritually dead until such belief in Him is exercised.

⁴ Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

⁵ “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. ⁶ If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.....John 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

Sequence:

Jesus comes to the door of my heart (by His Spirit).  He does not yet dwell there.  He has not yet come in "to sup with me".  I have not yet responded to Him.

I listen to the story of His birth, or watch to a creation video, or watch a person who IS in a relationship with HIM.  (I see how that person acts and hear their words.)  I do these things BECAUSE I'm curious - yes, but the Spirit has aroused that curiosity. 

And the Spirit of Jesus speaks to my heart.  "There IS something more."  And I want to know more.  The conviction grows and grows, and grows - that God is REAL, and Jesus is my Savior.  I want to KNOW about God.  Then I want to KNOW God.  Then I want to belong to God.  I BELIEVE in Him.  I regret my past stupid selfish actions.  I want to be changed.  And Jesus teaches me, little, by little, by little.  And I am changed little, by little, by little.  

This is the process. 

Did I do this - without Christ.  Of course NOT!!!!  I responded to His Spirit. 

You asked HOW a dead person could respond.  We'll - Jesus did raise the dead.  They responded.   Does that mean they were not physically DEAD, before the moment they heard Jesus voice.  No!  They WERE dead.  But when Jesus touched them, or spoke to them - they WOKE up.   Just so with our spiritually DEAD hearts/minds.  They respond WHEN Jesus touches them.  The difference is - that spiritually DEAD human beings CAN resist the life giving Spirit. 

[8thdaypriest]

Let's say two men (Father and son) are estranged from one another.  The Father wants to bring his son back into a loving relationship.  But the son does not trust his father, and will not listen to anything he has to say.  The son has completely misunderstood his father's actions and motives. 

How can the father reconcile the son to himself ???   He needs a really clear message, that his son cannot fail to hear.   So the father sends the son a gift, something absolutely precious - something that his son wants very much. 

Let's say the son learns about the gift, and wonders why his father would give him something so precious.  Let's say this gift overcomes the son's resistance, and He returns home.  He comes to love his father again. 

Now - HOW did the father bring about that reconciliation?  It was through the gift - right? 

I believe that is the meaning of  the passage quoted.

2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation.

Jesus is the gift that brings about the reconciliation. 

Our "ministry of reconciliation" is to tell folks about the "Gift" so they too can be reconciled TO God our Father. 

 

In my story, was the son reconciled BEFORE his father sent the gift?  No.  Was the son reconciled BEFORE he HEARD about his father's gift?  No.

He was NOT YET reconciled to his father. 

Did the father resent and distrust his son, and need to be reconciled.  No.  Only the son needed to be reconciled TO his father. 

Samie,

We are talking past each other, because of the time element - the TENSE of the reconciliation. 

You say, it was all done by the Father before time began.  I say the gift was planned then, but it was NOT YET seen or understood by the recipient.  Therefore the recipient could not possibly have responded to the gift, with reconciliation BEFORE he even heard of it. 

[LifeHiscost]

Can you please tell me how we can exercise while dead?

Warmed my heart just reading it. It took me many years before the Light shone bright enough in my heart, a religious person who read the Word daily, that I couldn't help but succumb to this reality below.

 

Just as soon as the people of God are sealed

in

their foreheads—it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a

settling

into the

truth

, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved—just as soon as God’s people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already.—

The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 4:1161 (1902)

.

{LDE 219.4}  

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

That last response was to 8thdaypriest. Sorry Samie.

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

Remember the silly questions like, Can God make a rock that He cannot lift?  OR  Can God make it hot and cold in the same place at the same time? 

The reason I said "COULD NOT" is because God cannot leave our "free will" intact, and at the same time manipulate our minds.  It's either "free will" or "manipulation".  Not both. 

If God wants to be loved, if He wants a relationship, He CANNOT have that IF He takes over our minds to accomplish it.  That's not love.  Love must be freely given. 

That is why I said "all God can do is to present the evidence" concerning Himself.  We humans either respond, or reject HIM.   

We're saying the same thing.  God cannot "force" us to love Him without violating our free will.

[LifeHiscost]

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

although I would say "WOULD NOT" rather than "COULD NOT".  God can do whatever He wants to do. 

Rachel's use here of the word "could not" is consistent with what we see in Scripture, which says, for example, that "God cannot lie."

Regarding the comment that God can do whatever He wants to do, there are many things God would like to do which He cannot.  For example, He is not willing that any should perish, but come to the knowledge of the truth.  He would like to save everyone, but cannot, in the same sense that He cannot lie (i.e. act contrary to His character).