Are we still suspicious towards the religious right?

[Unchained]

A little while ago I read a news piece where an adventist professor was quoted regarding adventists and the religious right:

Quote

"The religious right is pretty generally viewed with suspicion among Adventists. They want someone who is more thoroughly libertarian as opposed to someone who is going to be pushing heavily a moral agenda through politics," said Douglas Morgan, an Adventist and a professor of history at Washington Adventist University.”

source: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/25/politics/ben-carson-2016-religion/

This made me stop and think for a while. Is this still true? I remember that in the nineties there used to be considerable interest concerning the rise of the religious right in the US. Back then we were largely sceptical, we suspected that this movement was the beginning of a process that eventually would culminate in Sunday laws. In the article above the professor went on to claim that adventists who support the religious right still is a minority.

So basically I'm wondering if his claims about this is true, so I have a few of questions for you all:

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

(optional) Do you personally think it's true that the protestant churches in the US will influence politicians to enact Sunday laws, and that the US will persecute Sabbath keepers?

[phkrause]

9 hours ago, Unchained said:

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

Yes, Yes and No

[phkrause]

9 hours ago, Unchained said:

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

Don't really hear much talk about this, so really have no answer or opinion

[phkrause]

9 hours ago, Unchained said:

(optional) Do you personally think it's true that the protestant churches in the US will influence politicians to enact Sunday laws, and that the US will persecute Sabbath keepers?

YES

[Lester]

The far right does concern me.  Although I have always considered myself conservative, the new right includes too much religious convictions into government politics.  As a friend suggested, cant we be anti-abortion but pro- choice legally?  Can I desire less government control and yet understand the value othes have for society care for the less fortunate?  (Matthew 25 even speaks to this!).  And how does right to have a gun and pro-Israel become the only Christian viewpoint? And is anti-Muslim a Christian virtue?. 

2). I think many Adventists are caught up in the fundamentalist/rightwing movement politically. It seems right!. 

[BigMark]

Matthew 25 speaks about the 10 virgins, the talents and the sheep and goats. What does that have to do with those less fortunate? Jesus did not petition the Romans to redistribute the wealth so the widows and orphans will be taken care of. He instructed his disciples to do so. 

 

The religious right seems to be those who have no relationship to Jesus, but want to overcompensate for that by forcing their laws down everyone's throats.  Just my $.02

[Sojourner]

I see the 'religious right' as people that are prepared to stand up for what they believe in. Why stand back and just allow issues like Abortion for birth control and pornography flood our streets like open sewers? Should Christians not speak up about those things? If they do then are they given a label by other Christians who don't want to speak up themselves? 

[Kevin H]

Sojourner: Yes we need to fight pornography and not let it flood our streets like an open sewer However Seventh-day Adventists support birth-control. In a very hard to find book (because too many Adventists did not like it) titled something like "An Appeal to Mothers" by Mrs. White she encouraged birth-control. We can hate abortion but hate the underground abortion clinics and home made attempts that leave young girls dead even more. We can fight abortion on a grass roots level. Reaching out to people and helping them so that they know they have better choices than abortion. Keep abortion legal but obsolete.

[Kevin H]

18 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

 

Yes I am skeptical , yes I support the separation of church and state, and no we have too much religion in government (Including the religion of skepticism/Secularism).

[Kevin H]

18 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

I was seeing us as feeling like I did above. Lately there has not been the discussion that I use to hear and I was shocked when I listened to one of Ben Carson's audiobooks and was surprised how far to the right he was.

[Kevin H]

18 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

(optional) Do you personally think it's true that the protestant churches in the US will influence politicians to enact Sunday laws, and that the US will persecute Sabbath keepers?

Maybe not exactly with all the details that could have happened in the 1800s and very likely not according to the traditions but yes I see the basic principles: That Catholics and Protestants will use the philosophy of existentialism (Spiritualism: The idea of truth proceeds from you and your experience and there is no right or wrong except for what is right or wrong for you) or the beast (Having others make decisions for you), to unify the world for the merchants of the earth (the corporations).

[Gregory Matthews]

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

GM:  I support the separation of church and State.  As such, I believe that there are some issues that rightfully belong to the Church and it is the Church, not government, that should convince people.  An example of this is the issue of same-sex marriage.  From the Biblical standpoint, I believe that marriage should be between a male and a female.   But, in our society, marriage has a number of rights.  This places marriage in the area of a civil right.  From that standpoint, I believe that same-sex couples should have the right to marry.  I am personally skeptical of the religious right and a potential for them to attempt to force their religious views on others.

 

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

GM:  Many SDAs are supportive of the religious right.  Many are not.   

 

[GayatfootofCross]

In my SDA lifetime all i ever known was Right wing Conservative SDA's.

Face to Face. To this very day.

The internet has opened up a world to me of SDA's who all don't prescribe to this oppressive false pic exclusive God.

Strangers yet Family.

I wonder if God has kept me alive just to see this.It has worked miracles on my heart. To See God differently and people as well.

It has freed me and decompressed my anxiety since i  horrifically discovered  i was gay at 12.

 

but sadly this current video is very represented of the SDA's i grew up with. And pretty much hang around with at church currently.

There are people at my church who feel differently  (of course)..but not completely..gays are still second class citizens according to their voting record and over all politics.

baby steps baby steps

Maybe if i went to larger churches in larger cities ..I would have been exposed to what God really thinks of the likes of me  ..face to face with others!.

God calls me to love on and serve both sides of the aisle like my very own.

Ignore Rachel Maddow and just listen to this guy introducing THREE GOP Candidates November 2015. Very Right Wing of the Day from where I stand.

A content blessed loved Gay Christian with God in my heart  and in my face.

And I don't deserve any of it. HE is that Good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDbGyv6SIQ

 

[Ted Oplinger]

On 11/13/2015, 8:56:10, Unchained said:

A little while ago I read a news piece where an adventist professor was quoted regarding adventists and the religious right:

source: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/25/politics/ben-carson-2016-religion/

This made me stop and think for a while. Is this still true? I remember that in the nineties there used to be considerable interest concerning the rise of the religious right in the US. Back then we were largely sceptical, we suspected that this movement was the beginning of a process that eventually would culminate in Sunday laws. In the article above the professor went on to claim that adventists who support the religious right still is a minority.

Is it still true? For those in the U.S., that depends largely on where one resides. In the classic Adventist communities and academic sites, in the areas where there are administration offices, and in the political "blue state" areas, that is largely a true statement to say those supporting the religious right are still a minority. That said, in many Adventist churches away from these areas, that statement is now largely false. 

 

Whether Adventists are honest enough to admit it or not, it is that fear of the National Sunday Law which drives them to believe what they believe. I noticed this very pronounced point when I first was baptized into the Remnant faith back in 1986, and from my observations both local and global, that has not changed in the least.

On 11/13/2015, 8:56:10, Unchained said:

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

I have worked side-by-side with both ends of the religious spectrum. Currently, from my contacts and associations with even some very deeply religious Right people, the overwhelming majority of those on the Right do NOT advocate using the political process to advance a religious/moral agenda. When asked what it would take to get them to advocate for such, it consistently came down to their perceiving God dispensing His wrath upon this nation do to the activity of the cultural Left. What makes me skeptical of them, though, is the recurring point of ignorance and denial of history up to even a few decades ago, that this was indeed an advocacy they were in favor of. History not learned, and history denied, means history repeated.

My counterparts on the Left, however, have have both voiced and demonstrated they are far more in favor of using the courts and legislation to promote their perspectives of the Gospel, and advance their moral/religious agenda, than are the religious Right. Much of this is grounded in a firm misunderstanding of what the Founding Fathers saw was the proper relationship and place of religious faith in the government, coupled with a very human union of pop culture and the Gospel, in my opinion.

Hence, while I remain skeptical of what is on the Right, I am far more skeptical of the Left in religion, as they are actually doing what they fear the Right to do. That places me at odds with a significant plurality of Adventists in Europe and the U.S., and not so much with Adventists from other parts of the globe.

Personally support the separation of church and state? That depends in large part on how one wants to define what the combining of church and state is. As typically presented in modern Western culture, this is actually a false choice logical fallacy, coupled to a straw man argument. Today's culture defines "separation of church and state" to mean the presence of any Biblical principle or law within the confines of the state. This argument is not supported by the writings of what the Founders of the U.S. meant with the establishment clause. Very few actually know what the establishment clause means today, and and today's pop culture mistakenly thinks that any presence of Biblical teaching even present within the state domain meets that criteria, and must by necessity be removed. Using Biblical principles as a foundation for good legislation is what is defined as "establishment" today.

This is a gross misunderstanding of what was penned to be the religious establishment the Founding Fathers meant to prevent. Such thinking is also by necessity contrary to the second half of the establishment clause, in that this clause includes the prohibition against the elimination of free exercise of faith in the public square. 

Do I support keeping religious faith from being adopted as the state official religion of the land? Yes, I do. Does that necessarily mean I support the current understanding that Biblical principles be removed from being the basis by which this country is best run? On this question, a significant number of Adventists choose to support this point. I do not.

Religion in government? Hmmm....the catch question meant to be the default answer to answering "No" to the previous choice. This, again, is really a false choice logical fallacy, based re-defining what "separation of church and state" away from what it originally was meant to be.

So again, I am far more skeptical of those on the religious Left than those on the Right...in large part, because I see the Left side willingly (and sometimes wantonly) using re-definition as a means of setting the language in place to pursue their legislation and judicial agendas in the moral/religious arena. From my perspective, most Adventist academics and administrative staffs fall into this category.

 

On 11/13/2015, 8:56:10, Unchained said:

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

In my local church, roughly 2/3 of the congregation are cautiously supportive of the Right, owing in large part to what I discussed in question 1 above.

 

On 11/13/2015, 8:56:10, Unchained said:

(optional) Do you personally think it's true that the protestant churches in the US will influence politicians to enact Sunday laws, and that the US will persecute Sabbath keepers?

Here is where the stuff hits the fan, so to speak. Most Adventists are convinced the threat comes from the vaunted religious Right, so they vote the opposite - the political Left - to prevent this from happening. this, I think is ironic, because that is precisely where the Papal position is. In reality, it is the Protestant churches that are moving toward the Papal position by which this prophetically foretold clasping will transact. Rome never, ever changes, so if the Protestants are going to meet Rome, it will be where Rome is, and not Rome moving over to the Protestants by virtue of common cause.

And that is precisely what we see happening with this current Pope - who is solidly Left both politically and religiously - he is making the greatest ecumenical inroads ever in the Counter-Reformation, such that he has convinced most every major Protestant institution to agree with him that the Reformation can be considered finished, having completed its work.

Adventists are in large part knee-jerk about the Religious Right, simply because they believe such a clasping can only be framed in a "common cause" setting. Very few Adventists I have discussed this with, even consider the thought that such a clasping of hands, as EGW foretells, can come from the sympathizing of common beliefs coalescing around Rome's focus...which is what I am observing to be what is really happening today.

We point to 1888 as the framework by which the Sunday Law must necessarily come. That did indeed come from the Right, and was indeed a "common cause" adventure, as Rome cast her support in favor of it. But that was Rome reaching over to clasp the Protestant hand in support - Rome really had no power here in the U.S. at that time. The effort failed spectacularly, and in such a way that it will not be repeated again.

Since then, this has been the standard Adventist position - to be prepared for another 1888. Yet, the enemy of our souls knows this. With today having so much information at our fingertips, our enemy will not grant God the courtesy of repeating 1888. No, I believe he will funnel that Sunday Law in from a direction Adventists do not expect, and cannot defend against: the political and religious Left. 

So, Protestantism must necessarily reach out to Rome where Rome is (as EGW did indeed foretell) and THEN clasp hands with her. Protestantism will, by and large, move toward Rome's stance religiously and politically.

Because the SDA institution has already adopted that position...she cannot fight it. Evidence? The Canadian Sunday Rest Law is a clear example - and indeed was the devil's test balloon as to proceeding in these last days. This law was framed on the setting of providing an official day of labor and family rest. Rome and the Protestants immediately jumped on board in favor of it...because what other major activity is going to be favored if one must legally take that day off? Church attendance, in their view.

Yet, when the Adventist came forward with the arguments prepared for another 1888...they were easily rebuffed, in that the Rome and Protestant advocates simply said Adventists were making the issue a religious issue, when it was instead presented as a labor and family issue. Now, it is but an easy step to declare that since the day is already the legal day of rest in the week, church attendance can be voted as mandatory - for the sake of labor and family interests.

In short, the SDA church never really saw this coming...and remains in denial that it can happen the same way here in the U.S. The SDA church remains solidly prepared for a fight which, in my opinion, will not ever happen again. This means the real National Sunday Law will indeed be voted in as quickly as foretold...because of this very point. Adventists really do not fathom it could come from any direction other than what happened in 1888, and are already in large sympathy with the very issues used by Rome, and Protestants reaching across to Rome, to bring this Sunday Law into being. To suggest this borders on blasphemy to some Adventist circles I know.

I see this every January, when I read the literature associated with the Religious Liberty drive.

Will the U.S. one day be a persecuting power? It already is. Will it ramp up that persecuting power with the foretold National Sunday Law? Yes, it will. And I am convinced that the direction it comes from will cause as much enormous fallout within the SDA church, as will Adventists having to choose later to disobey the foretold corollary to that Law - that Sunday is to be the ONLY day of worship. Most Adventists don't even know the Sabbath/Sunday choice remains for a short while after the Sunday Law is passed.

Blessings,

 

[Unchained]

On 17/11/2015, 19:46:55, Ted Oplinger said:

Is it still true? For those in the U.S., that depends largely on where one resides. In the classic Adventist communities and academic sites, in the areas where there are administration offices, and in the political "blue state" areas, that is largely a true statement to say those supporting the religious right are still a minority. That said, in many Adventist churches away from these areas, that statement is now largely false. 

 

Thanks for your feedback!

You mention “Red” and “Blue” states, but do you see a contrast between rural and urban areas as well?

 

Quote

The overwhelming majority of those on the Right do NOT advocate using the political process to advance a religious/moral agenda. When asked what it would take to get them to advocate for such, it consistently came down to their perceiving God dispensing His wrath upon this nation do to the activity of the cultural Left. What makes me skeptical of them, though, is the recurring point of ignorance and denial of history up to even a few decades ago, that this was indeed an advocacy they were in favor of. History not learned, and history denied, means history repeated.

Interesting, I definitively agree with you that if people thought that God was “punishing” the US, they would become much more open to using the political process to avert the “wrath” of God. We don't really expect that Sunday laws would come in a period when there's peace and prosperity, do we? Instead it'll come as a response to some kind of national crisis.

Now, I don't know what the majority on the right thinks about the separation of Church and state, but I do know that a very popular politician is “open toward registering U.S. Muslims in a database or giving them special identification identifying their faith”. Source: http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/260727-trump-wont-rule-out-database-special-id-for-muslims

What if we took the quote above and replaced “muslims” with “adventists”?

There recently was this other presidential candidate who suggested to establish “a new federal agency to promote core Judeo-Christian, Western values”, although he since has backed down. Perhaps I'm a little sensitive, but all of this sounds a lot as if many among the religious right indeed are becoming increasingly open to using the political process to advance a religious agenda. I mean, normally the sentiments of politicians have at least some degree of support from their core supporters.

Now, I'm certainly not suggesting that Republicans are the only ones that could use politics to advance a religious agenda. Under the right circumstances democrats could certainly do that too. Yet, as a non-american observer it's difficult to escape the conclusion that the politicians popular among the “religious right” seem to be forerunners when it comes to using a religious rhetoric in a political setting. Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not saying that people should vote for the Democrats to avoid "sunday laws", it's not that simple.

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/14/2015, 3:15:07, Sojourner said:

I see the 'religious right' as people that are prepared to stand up for what they believe in. Why stand back and just allow issues like Abortion for birth control and pornography flood our streets like open sewers? Should Christians not speak up about those things? If they do then are they given a label by other Christians who don't want to speak up themselves? 

Sojourner I hate to say this, then you are religiously wrong. YAHWEH did not ordain anyone of us to take HIS role!!!! Sure we must take a stand for religious freedom. You are not to force anyone not to abort their babies. That is their bodies and they have a right to choose. Yes, abortion is wrong unless it is by rape or incest. We are in the world not of the world, we suppose to be passing through. Any time you tried to force someone to go your way, they will rebel. But that is not the point any ways because you cannot stop prophecy.

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of THE SON of man.  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded.  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when THE SON of man is revealed. Luke 17:26-30 

Now why would you think that you or the right wing can go against what is happening and that is secularism? This our second problem, we tried to make up something that is nowhere in the Bible. Here come the SDA myth we have taught in the church. When the pioneers first start keeping the Holy Sabbath, they thought about the Papacy like the rest of the Protestants. The Papacy was the anti person who going to make every one worshipped on Sunday. Now the rising America had these Sunday laws called the Sunday blue laws. Sad to say Adventist had to take YAHWEH'S Sabbath and make it our to be a burden just like Israel. It appears that the Sabbath was more important than HIS NAME or how to worship HIM! We forget that the Statute is a Command that ELOHIM made. HE made the Sabbath Holy and not us. But here we go taking over ELOHIM'S Law and making our own twist to it. Nowhere in the Bible or anywhere else does a mark mean a day! A mark is always used on something tangible like a building or something. But YAHWEH was not warning about objects but marking your body. YOU CANNOT MARK A DAY IT IS NOT TANGIBLE!!!!! So how on earth did we come up with the beast's mark is about Sunday worship? First of all the beast is not the pope because he is going to destroy the Catholic Church/whore according to the Bible! Plus it is ELOHIM'S WILL! Rev 17:16, 17

Now EGW change about the Papacy in TM p. 112, she said that we would have last to say about the Papacy. Why because the very one who claim that they are so close to the fake Jews that call themselves Ashkenazi's along with the Protestants and the Catholic Church will be in Jerusalem that have turn to be call Babylon. Read Rev Chapter 18 I lived there and there are so many different religion that stake a claim over there now you wouldn't believe it. The Pentecostal, Baptist, Armenian, Coptic, Catholic, Greek Orthodox. Jerusalem is so commercial that you can buy the pagan crosses, candles, all types of the so call Jesus, Mary and other religious trinkets. Everything centers around the Catholic Church and her children the Protestants. It is habituation of unclean birds of all kind. This city is where the true prophets of ELOHIM were killed and there all types of merchants with everything to trade or sale just like the Bible says.

So to finalize, the world, especially the young people are not interested in church. More want to be free to have sex any kind of way they want it. Just like what Paul said. Rom 1:16-32 Violence is everywhere! We talk about the Muslim, they have not come on our Colleges campus and shoot up students, or go into the movie houses as well! These are white people! Hello! ISIS kill Muslims or enslave them beside Westerners. They claim religion but  truly they have nothing but pure hatred and violence like in Noah's days, only intensified to the 10th power. Sodom is here too, any type of sex goes these day and homosexual is ruling the day!

So you think you can do what ELOHIM says not to do? Who are you or the Tea Party right wing because I never read anywhere that give them the right to judge or condemn anyone in the Bible. What they need to do is to get the moat out their eyes before they get the beam out of others. Simple, you are racist and stop saying you are not! There are more KKK hidden in your party then where please? You all hate the Mexicans, the Syrians, Asians and yes us Blacks as well. That is why I cannot for the life of me understand how we are in that party, oh well! Gun ho crazy and want to shoot your guns!  What all of us need to do, we better watch and pray because it is going to get worst. Watch out those who are so self righteous, the one who abort can repent while you so busy hating them. You will find yourself on the outside, while the homosexual will have changed, the pornographer will have confess, the whore, birth control taker and so many more will have made in!!! Why you say! Because you cannot save, only YAHSHUA saves and HE not them have that POWER!!!!!!!!

I know a lot of you will be upset, but just take a little time and pray to see what YAHWEH says first!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

Unchained here is my answer to your questions:

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

There will not be more religion. I am sad because they are so busy hating and going against all the principles of the Bible

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

Personally, I do not care what my friends or Adventist who have right. They are ELOHIM and ELOHIM have not told them to do HIS job. YAHWEH is THE JUDGE, HE looketh on each of our hearts. I tell a lot of right wing are going to be lost because they are so self-righteous. They need to concentrate on their sins and not own others. They too will have stand before THE JUDGE and have they studied to show themselves approval and confess all of their sins?

(optional) Do you personally think it's true that the protestant churches in the US will influence politicians to enact Sunday laws, and that the US will persecute Sabbath keepers? Nope, an SDA's myth that has no Bible base, just like the word trinity! People always will easily believe a lie then truth! Why? The listen to others rather then read the Bible for themselves. Let me give an example: How many have heard that YAHWEH destroyed the top of the tower of Nimrod's Babylon? Find it in the Bible, I dare you and then get back to with the exact words that happen! A lie will spread quicker then the truth!

Blessings and have a happy Sabbath!

[Sojourner]

On 21/11/2015, 3:58:02, stinsonmarri said:

 abortion is wrong unless it is by rape or incest.

 

You state that it is wrong to abort a child for birth control then state that it is not wrong to abort a child born of rape or incest? Can you direct me to the passage in the Bible where it is stated that is the case? Why is it acceptable to abort one baby but not another?

 

[DreamWeaver]

On 11/13/2015, 9:56:10, Unchained said:

1) Are you personally sceptical towards the religious right, in other words, the tendency to use the political process to advance a moral/religious agenda? Do you personally support the separation of church and state, or would you like to see more religion in government?

2) How do you perceive the opinion of your fellow adventists concerning the religious right? Are they supportive of their goals, or are they mostly suspicious? What is the “vibe” in your local church and among your friends? Are those who oppose the religious right still a majority?

(optional) Do you personally think it's true that the protestant churches in the US will influence politicians to enact Sunday laws, and that the US will persecute Sabbath keepers?

1. Yes, I am personally skeptical towards the religious right. I do not advocate for one political party over another though. To me the right and the left are two sides of the same devil. The left pushes for shameless sin and unbiblical laws in the name of humanism and based on atheistic ideals. The right is like the devil's false identity of "light" so he can get away with supplying a supposed remedy after ruining the world with his foolish laws from the left. Through the left he [the devil] is causing disorder while through the right he will seek to create a new order out of the chaos caused by himself.

I do support to the separation of the church and state. Though, due to the fact that the world is so corrupted by sin, such a separation will inevitably come to an end because humans are power hungry and selfish in the fallen state that we're in right now.

 

2. I cannot answer this one because I don't have that kind of insight on the current stats. I do however know that a lot of Adventists will be misled (according to prophesy) to accept the mark of the beast and assist the beast power at the end of time to persecute the saints. So according to that knowledge, I subscribe to the idea that many people in the SDA church do not know their own hearts. I think its our duty as individuals to pray and ask God to keep us in check when we sound or act like we're joining the beast in combining church and state.

 

3. Yes. Yes. So much, YES! We are getting closer and closer to that hour even as I'm typing this. The world is ripe, especially this year! Next year will probably make people's hearts beat out of their chests.

[Geoarrge]

There are certain elements worthy of suspicion.  Still, the reason it's starting to seem like people are going to accept the dreaded Sunday Law, is because the ultra-secularist Left is blindly leading the world into conflict with an enemy that will make religious loyalty tests seem like a great idea. Without that crisis, the dangerous reactionaries will have no vehicle to ride to power.  As long as we have to live in this world, we had better make the best we can of it, in case it doesn't end as soon as we imagine.

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 11/22/2015, 2:55:47, DreamWeaver said:

 

 

3. Yes. Yes. So much, YES! We are getting closer and closer to that hour even as I'm typing this. The world is ripe, especially this year! Next year will probably make people's hearts beat out of their chests.

This, although quite lengthy, is one of the best explanations of why human kind is where we are today and how quickly we as a whole, are sinking into the quagmire.

 

12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.....Amos 4

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/22/2015, 12:23:31, Sojourner said:

You state that it is wrong to abort a child for birth control then state that it is not wrong to abort a child born of rape or incest? Can you direct me to the passage in the Bible where it is stated that is the case? Why is it acceptable to abort one baby but not another?

 

I know that YAHWEH will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and the right of the poor. Psa 140:12 

Truly, then, ELOHIM overlooking the times of this ignorance, but now strictly Commands all men everywhere to repent, Act 17:30

I gave these two text not to say that the Bible states anything about abortion. But to show compassion through the heart or the mind that we cannot see. Who are we to judge those things that are not spill out in the Bible. There is a way to that seems right but can truly lead to destruction not on the aborted, but on those who take on THE CREATORS rights. None of us have created anything, we procreated through ELOHIM!  What right do any of us to tell a woman to carry to term a rapist or incest's baby. I will not judge and I will get involve with the choice of others. What I will do is to pray and leave it up to ELOHIM THE ONLY JUDGE for us all!

Blessings!

[doug yowell]

On Tue Nov 17 2015 10:46:55 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard, Ted Oplinger said:

To suggest this borders on blasphemy to some Adventist circles I know.

I see this every January, when I read the literature associated with the Religious Liberty drive.

With very few minor exceptions I found your entire response perfectly on target. That was an exceptionally well thought out analysis of the past 35 years of contemporary Adventism and their reinvention of the church/state wheel. Wish there were more like you. How the mighty have fallen. 

[doug yowell]

On Sun Nov 22 2015 18:06:23 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard, jackson said:

Provb 14:34    Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin [is] a reproach to any people

Some important yet largely unwelcome observations, Jackson. When so many SDA RL pundits argue that "true freedom" is demonstrated by religious antagonism and moral licentiousness they argue against the very documents which establish their freedoms.  May your tribe increase.

[doug yowell]

On Thu Nov 19 2015 13:29:26 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard, Unchained said:

 

On Tue Nov 17 2015 10:46:55 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard, Ted Oplinger said:

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

"if people thought that God was “punishing” the US, they would become much more open to using the political process to avert the “wrath” of God."

Yet, conversely, when people think that God has no interest in how the citizenry of the U.S. politically redefines it's moral foundations they are more likely to release all regard for any subsequent national consequences and drink wine from the sacred vessels while praising the gods of reason and freedom. It's no idle comment that when people stop believing in God they must fill the void with something else. So when the something else has arrived everyone thinks it's the true answer, including many Adventists unfortunately.   

On Thu Nov 19 2015 13:29:26 GMT-0800 (Pacific Standard, Unchained said: