Are 'Celebration SDA Churches', new path to God, or away from truth?

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, hobie said:

The Willow Creek model has these issues if you look below the surface,  well as for renting, they gave it to them free of charge. Then they did a 'Sunday Breakfast' with a big sign for the community inviting them, so it does not appear they were evangelizing for Adventism and the Sabbath, but more for Sunday keeping IMHO.

And this is bad?  My calling as a follower of Christ is to bring people to Jesus.  If they want to come Adventism and the Sabbath, that's just gravy.  We are saved by the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ; not Adventism and the Sabbath.  Anyone who loves Him and believes in Him as the sole source of salvation and eternal life will be more than happy to do whatever He asks of them.  We can't offer people a choice of only Adventism or eternal damnation.

[GayatfootofCross]

9 hours ago, hobie said:

But do we then keep in the bondage of sin and iniquity sharing it with others in the 'The Body of Christ' or church, I don't think that is what Christ had in mind..

?

No..

What He does have in mind is unconditional love and acceptance and forgiveness and non condemnation for all of us and that is mirrored face to face in fellowship.

In this fiery supernatural love .... healing and growth flourishes.

Praise God!

 

[JoeMo]

On 5/28/2018 at 3:29 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

God is all about authenticity and non condemnation. and The Body of Christ heals and grows in this.

The masks wont be saved.

So true.  The hymn "Just As I Am" says it all.  Whether a celebration church or a staunch historic church.  if we are wearing a mask, we are hiding our faults and issues; pretending to be good; pretending that there is nothing bad going on in our lives. (and we all have issues and stressors in our life)

Just as I am, without one plea, But that Thy blood was shed for me, And that Thou bid’st me come to Thee, O Lamb of God, I come! I come! Just as I am, and waiting not To rid my soul of one dark blot; To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot, O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

[GayatfootofCross]

I never grow weary of talking about God's Love.

 

[GayatfootofCross]

12 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

sounds like you are celebrating it.

 

That brings to mind that Robin Williams' quote from The Bird Cage .....

"  You do an eclectic celebration of the dance! You do Fosse, Fosse, Fosse! You do Martha Graham, Martha Graham, Martha Graham! Or Twyla, Twyla, Twyla! Or Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd! Or Madonna, Madonna, Madonna!... but you keeP it all inside. "

Many in the Church would be more comfortable.

 

# rigor mortis

[B/W Photodude]

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

We are saved by the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ; not Adventism and the Sabbath.  Anyone who loves Him and believes in Him as the sole source of salvation and eternal life will be more than happy to do whatever He asks of them.

Actually, we are not saved by the atoning sacrifice (justification), but by the life of Jesus abiding in us(sanctification). I got this straight from the Apostle Paul when he wrote, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10

The atoning sacrifice just makes us right with God (reconciled), but are we safe to save?

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 5:56 PM, JoeMo said:

What would happen if people actually danced to the music, or clapped singing "Praise God, Thank You Jesus, We love You!" ?  I have been at a charismatic service (not SDA - heavens, no!) where this exact thing happened, and went on for over 30 minutes.  The preacher gave up on giving a sermon and joined in the celebration.  It was one of the most blessed I have ever been at a church service.  Never seen it before; and never seen it since. I wouldn't call it irreverent; but I sure would call it enthusiastic!

But what would you call where all they did is danced to the music, played hard rock and had no worship to God or reverence for Him and no sermon to feed the members or uplift their minds and hearts. I would say 'Black Sabbath' comes to mind.

[hobie]

13 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

?

No..

What He does have in mind is unconditional love and acceptance and forgiveness and non condemnation for all of us and that is mirrored face to face in fellowship.

In this fiery supernatural love .... healing and growth flourishes.

Praise God!

 

Well let me ask a question. If you were invited to come before the Queen at the marriage of Prince Harry and Meagan, would you just show up in tattered jeans and T-shirt. Of course not, even Oprah had to change her outfit at the last minute as it was not proper. Why did she do that, she was showing respect and you can say even love for the royals.

We had a young man who came to church invited by one of the young ladies, and did not come dress properly. Well, the brother of the young lady gave him one of his own jackets, and guess what, he changed and the brother was only 14 but knew how to handle it without any 'condemnation' as you say.  Respect and love is shown in many ways, and God deserves it more than any royalty....

[hobie]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

So true.  The hymn "Just As I Am" says it all.  Whether a celebration church or a staunch historic church.  if we are wearing a mask, we are hiding our faults and issues; pretending to be good; pretending that there is nothing bad going on in our lives. (and we all have issues and stressors in our life)

Just as I am, without one plea, But that Thy blood was shed for me, And that Thou bid’st me come to Thee, O Lamb of God, I come! I come! Just as I am, and waiting not To rid my soul of one dark blot; To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot, O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

I will give you another good hymn..

1
Look upon Jesus, sinless is He;
Father, impute His life unto me.
My life of scarlet, my sin and woe,
Cover with His life, whiter than snow.

Refrain
Cover with His life, whiter than snow;
Fullness of His life then shall I know;
My life of scarlet, my sin and woe,
Cover with His life, whither than snow.

2
Deep are the wounds transgression has made;
Red are the stains; my soul is afraid.
O to be covered, Jesus, with Thee,
Safe from the law that now judgeth me!

3
Longing the joy of pardon to know;
Jesus holds out a robe white as snow;
“Lord, I accept it! Leaving my own,
Gladly I wear Thy pure life alone.”

4
Reconciled by His death for my sin,
Justified by His life pure and clean,
Sanctified by obeying His word,
Glorified when returneth my Lord.

 

Justification and sanctification together, that is how the Bible gives what happens. We don't stay in the gall of iniquity and bondage of sin, we cast them off and began our walk of sanctification........

[Gregory Matthews]

The following quote sounds pretty judgmental.  A lot of how we worship and reverence God is determined by our culture.  We live in a time when there is international movement of people.  I once pastored a congregation  in a city.  Today, there are four (4) SDA congregations worshiping in that city.  "Three (3) of those congregations represent three (3) different cultural groups that did not exist in that city when I was there as a pastor.  Those four (4) congregations express their worship and reverence for God in different ways.

 

. . . . .  no worship to God or reverence for Him . . .

[GayatfootofCross]

6 hours ago, hobie said:

Well let me ask a question. If you were invited to come before the Queen at the marriage of Prince Harry and Meagan, would you just show up in tattered jeans and T-shirt. Of course not, even Oprah had to change her outfit at the last minute as it was not proper. Why did she do that, she was showing respect and you can say even love for the royals.

We had a young man who came to church invited by one of the young ladies, and did not come dress properly. Well, the brother of the young lady gave him one of his own jackets, and guess what, he changed and the brother was only 14 but knew how to handle it without any 'condemnation' as you say.  Respect and love is shown in many ways, and God deserves it more than any royalty....

Well then it's decided then. Top Hat and Tails coming right up!

By dandy!

You have a beautiful appreciation of God's splendor, hobie!

 

.....

The thing is ..God already  provided us with everything to be able to come to Him at His royal wedding.

And to to use your analogy..

The top hats  and tails are already provided along with cummerbund and tie and spats.

And a cane to look more dapper.

And of course the pretty ladies will be wearing beaded gowns and furs and a hat

I myself prefer a large turban wrap with a green gem fastened above the forehead with a single ostrich feather reaching the ceiling.

and a parasol to look more ...uhh .. dapper.

But of course I am taking your thoughts and applying my  glam/ritzy sensibilities of what to wear to an event.

 

He is already here with you and me no matter where we are or what we have on or dont have on.

Going by your lovely spiritual allegory and previous posts.... 

You have already been wearing the desired fashionable nifty lil number every moment so you can come to God?

Where on earth did you get such  beautiful attire, hobie?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

19 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

The atoning sacrifice just makes us right with God (reconciled), but are we safe to save?

I guess that's up to God.  I feel assured of my salvation not because of who I am or what Iv'e done, but because of who Jesus is and what He's done.  If I have to rely on me for any part of my salvation, I'm doomed.  I'm a very jaded individual.   Any good I do is Christ working through me (usually without me even realizing it at the time), not any "good samaritan" gestures of my own making.

[JoeMo]

12 hours ago, hobie said:

But what would you call where all they did is danced to the music, played hard rock and had no worship to God or reverence for Him and no sermon to feed the members or uplift their minds and hearts.

If that's all they did was party, I'd call that entertainment; not church.  I've seen the same congregation laying prostrate on the floor, begging for God's Spirit and repenting of their lack of faith.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

The thing is ..God already  provided us with everything to be able to come to Him at His royal wedding.

 

Amen, Gay.  As long as I have on the wedding garment provided by the Groom (the rove of Jesus' Righteousness), I'm as dressed as I will ever need to be.  I wonder - if we're gonna be the Bride of Christ if we all have to wear wedding gowns and carry bouquets?

[GayatfootofCross]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Gay.  As long as I have on the wedding garment provided by the Groom (the rove of Jesus' Righteousness), I'm as dressed as I will ever need to be.  I wonder - if we're gonna be the Bride of Christ if we all have to wear wedding gowns and carry bouquets?

I have it already picked out.

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:52 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

?

No..

What He does have in mind is unconditional love and acceptance and forgiveness and non condemnation for all of us and that is mirrored face to face in fellowship.

In this fiery supernatural love .... healing and growth flourishes.

Praise God!

 

Yes, Judas comes to mind, he got the  'unconditional love and acceptance and forgiveness and non condemnation', and yet at the end betrayed Jesus. We must truly be converted, and let go of the addiction that sin has enslaved us with, and break the hold iniquity has on us. We must not just appear beautiful outward, but within be 'full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness'.

If not, at the end, we will show our true self, full of unrighteousness and betrayal, rather than put on the robe of righteousness that Christ has for us. We must chose and accept Christ with His gift of eternal life, rather than continue the wide path that leads to destruction, and eternal death.

 

[hobie]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 6:20 PM, JoeMo said:

If that's all they did was party, I'd call that entertainment; not church.  I've seen the same congregation laying prostrate on the floor, begging for God's Spirit and repenting of their lack of faith.

Yes, but I would have to give witness that they are not 'laying prostrate on the floor, begging for God's Spirit and repenting of their lack of faith', as you say, but continuing in the bitter path away from truth, and not heeding the warnings from God or man.

It has just made them redouble their efforts, and stiffened their resolve in promoting the Willow Creek model and 'spiritual formation' with its Catholic mysticism, and continue distancing themselves from Adventism.

[GayatfootofCross]

38 minutes ago, hobie said:

Yes, Judas comes to mind, he got the 'unconditional love and acceptance and forgiveness and non condemnation', and yet at the end betrayed Jesus. We must truly be converted, and let go of the addiction that sin has enslaved us with, and break the hold iniquity has on us. We must not just appear beautiful outward, but within be 'full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness'.

If not, at the end, we will show our true self, full of unrighteousness and betrayal, rather than put on the robe of righteousness that Christ has for us. We must chose and accept Christ with His gift of eternal life, rather than continue the wide path that leads to destruction, and eternal death.

 

Yes Judas indeed got  ..unconditional love and acceptance and forgiveness and non condemnation from GOD.

..But He didn't know it

 

These are the things that convert the heart toward HIM.

That's where the real action starts.

You talking like those things don't.

But I must say I see that everywhere here.

..and there!

 

 

# can't look anymore

[GayatfootofCross]

A new path to God?

It has always been the same.

 

This here shares the effects of seeing His Love for you and me.

 

Imagine a whole church like this.

 

# listen to the fruit

[Gregory Matthews]

Hobie:

Re. the quote below:  It seems you are spending a lot of time in a service that is not of spiritual benefit to you for the purpose of giving witness to others.   Is that the mission that God has given you:  To bear witness to the alleged faults of others?

Quote

Yes, but I would have to give witness . . .

[hobie]

Many churches are being affected not just a few scattered few such as in the Australian and South Pacific areas.The SDA churches that I know of directly are in the Interamerican Division, the North American Division, although we have not heard of it reaching Canada yet. It is being spread by the leaders at many of the levels and we have dealt directly with the Conference level and I have personally dealt with people that I know, so it is not outside but from the inside that this what I can only call apostasy is being brought in. To give a understanding of how it happened, we were building our new church and the conference  came and told us that a new pastor was going to come and they would present him to our church board for our approval.

I went to the church board and I personally heard the new pastor say that he would take our congregation into account in his ministry, and be a pastor that would preach from the Spirit of Prophecy and traditional Adventist doctrine, etc...And he did at first, but once we moved into our new church, all that change. He gave what I would call sermons devoid of any spiritual SDA beliefs,  SOP or Adventist doctrine such as the 3 Angels message, and stopped us from greeting what I would call newcomers who wanted to see what these Adventist that had built in their community were all about.

The pastor began a style of preaching that I had heard in the previous ''celebration church' I had been at, which my sister had helped start, so I knew it very well. I found it curious at first that the pastor changed so suddenly and shedding traditional Adventist doctrines and beliefs as our church was more of the conservative type. But then the pastor brought in people that were new or not what I would call spiritually minded into the church board, and began to get rid of all our elders and long time leaders on the board. We were in shock and utter disbelief and didn't quite now what to do.

We sent letters to the conference and they sent people to look into it, and they said everything was proper. So I confronted the conference man who I know personally, who had brought the pastor before our board and had heard all the promises he had made, and asked him to listen to our concerns. Well, he told me he did not want to talk about it because there were other members who might hear, and to send him it by email. And when I did, he said he did not want discuss it because there where not other members to verify what I sent. So he basically avoided the issue and put me off, and this was a pastor I went to school with, and served at my old church, and I worked with for years assisting him.

So I can tell you that this is coming from within our church, with leaders we know, and people we trusted. Many churches near us including the Spanish church we helped start are reporting similar events or being taken over in a similar fashion and the Pathfinder leaders are telling us the same thing is happening at their level. I went to several Pathfinder camporees and saw it personally and it also is happening at the Men's Ministry level as I came across it there, and I would say at many other parts of the church from the feedback we are getting.

We tried to be harmless as doves as it says in the Bible, but they began to look to see who had joined the spiritual formation groups especially those leading out in the church. I tried to stay out of any conflict, but they began to check on all the teachers, and sent people to listen in on my Sabbath School classes in the main sanctuary. I ignored it but when they asked me to join the 'spiritual formation' group, I had to give a answer. We had our Bible study group, so I told them I was already busy with one so declined to join, but they insisted so I had to decline. This started them on a path to group me with those who were against the new church board and pastor, and they sent me what I can only call a letter of censure to all those they felt were not going along with their Willow Creek model they had for our church.

I didn't say anything, or give them cause for any conflict, or do any action that might have be an issue, except I did not join their spiritual formation group. After that it became very apparent the pastor and the new board were going to make any who did not join as 'persona non grata', and move to get us out or take us off the church rolls. I don't think they could actually do that, but they sent a delegation from the new church board to warn of the consequences.

[hobie]

In the Sabbath School lesson it makes clear what direction they are heading, "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience."

They were supporting a Sunday keeping program downtown and I could not believe it till I went and saw it with my own eyes,  and are into spiritualism with their push to have everyone join their 'spiritual formation' agenda, so both parts are in play.

[hobie]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Hobie:

Re. the quote below:  It seems you are spending a lot of time in a service that is not of spiritual benefit to you for the purpose of giving witness to others.   Is that the mission that God has given you:  To bear witness to the alleged faults of others?

As I said I kept as harmless as doves, and said nothing, till they came and confronted me to join their spiritual formation group...

[hobie]

2 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

A new path to God?

It has always been the same.

 

This here shares the effects of seeing His Love for you and me.

 

Imagine a whole church like this.

 

# listen to the fruit

Yes, Jim Jones comes to mind, no one worried till the vats of poison were brought out. Need to test all things and ask God for the spirit of discernment.

[GayatfootofCross]

7 hours ago, hobie said:

Yes, Jim Jones comes to mind, no one worried till the vats of poison were brought out. Need to test all things and ask God for the spirit of discernment.

How is anything i posted reminds you of a Jim Jones cult.

Does the fruits of gospel sound that foreign to you?

 

Do the folks here see troubling responses?

Or is it just me?

I need my fainting couch.