Working during Sabbaths

[miahnie]

I don't know if this topic is on the right forum category. Admin can move it to the most appropriate.

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I grew up from a Seventh-day Adventist and medically-inclined family. Papang is a Medical Technologist while Mamang is a Nurse.

I never questioned them working on Saturdays when I was a kid. One day, during my early teens, I overheard Papang say that working in the hospital is a form of service to God, through helping the sick. I never had second thoughts on that either.

What bothers me now is when skeptic people come asking about work during Sabbath and always ends up pointing at workers at our health institutions.

True, Jesus Christ healed during Sabbath. That's a solid ground for health workers. But somebody just threw this question at me, "But they are being paid, during Saturdays, aren't they?" That got me into thinking.

Should our hospital workers receive allowance/stipend/wage/salary when working during Sabbath? If they are receiving payment, isn't that livelihood rather than service?

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Way back before 2000, accountants in the hospital's billing office do not go to work on Saturdays. But I've seen that they do nowadays. I think it was because some patients are discharged from the hospital during Saturdays. It would be a pain to collect somebody's hospital bills on a discharge day when no one was at the Billing office.

But couldn't the Administration make it in such a way that nobody should be discharged on a Saturday, and following the logic behind service, render that day as free of charge (room use, linen etc.) not just to to-be-discharged patients, but to all the patients admitted in the hospital?

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Their questions lead me to ask questions too.

I have observed at one of the churches that I attend that they hire cleaning aids/janitors to work on church toilets during Saturdays. These workers are not Seventh-day Adventists.

Is it right then, for us Seventh-day Adventists to hire workers, for our own convenience, during the Sabbath, just because they are not Seventh-day Adventists?

This question lead me to another question like, "Is it right to ride in a taxi/bus during Sabbath?" Because if I do so, I am supporting people who make a living during Sabbath...it sounded to me that I am advocating that it is alright for them to work on Saturdays because they are not Sabbath believers so I will just take advantage. Isn't abstaining from public transportation a way of telling the world about the Sabbath? Or is that too crazy?

[Amelia]

I'm not answering your questions as I don't have the answers. These are situations that need to be taken directly to God in prayer and come to your own decision. Yet Jesus healed on the Sabbath so I think it's ok for medical and emergency people to work on the Sabbath. I guess it depends on if you keep the old testiment Sabbath or the new testiment Sabbath.

And I wanted to impart this news item.

IEC workers irate over "Shabbat goy" plan

The workers fear the new employee intake will be at the expense of existing employees.

Lior Baron

30 Sep 07

Israel Electric Corporation (IEC) workers committee chairman Miko Zarfati today condemned a proposal by the Ministry of National Infrastructures to introduce legislation mandating the hiring of 150 non-Jewish employees. "The IEC workers committee will not allow new employees to be taken on at the expense of existing staff, solely to accommodate a certain sector," he warned.

The Ministry of National Infrastructures announced the initiative before the start of the Succot holiday, and said the aim was to enable haredi (ultra orthodox) people to use electricity on the Sabbath, and reduce the widespread use of pirate generators. To this end, it intended to introduce legislation requiring the hiring of 150 people from minority groups who will man power stations at the weekends.

[Nan]

Many years ago I had vacation employment at the Warburton Sanitarium and Hospital, a place many Jews chose to visit. There were always stories floating around of the ultraconservative Jews who would ring their bell to have some one come turn on their light during Sabbath. (These were guests, fully mobile, not incapacitated patients). Guess this is more of the same.

[Nan]

I saw only Amelia's response when I made my previous post, not the original questions.

Some things have to be individually decided. The Sydney Adventist Hospital permits free usage of its car parks during the Sabbath hours.

I do work on Sabbaths, but try to limit what I do to things that cannot be done at any other time. Another related danger I have found over the years is that doing 'legitimate' medical work can be a good excuse not to attend Sabbath School and church.

If taxi or public transport is the only way a person can travel to church on Sabbath, is it better to use either or to stay home? We took a taxi to church when visiting Vancouver last month (we were kindly dropped back by the Boss of the Board but that is another story :)

[miahnie]

Yes, I feel that after all the questions are done, it still boils down to one's choice. After all, these questions involve corporate policies and corporate decisions. The sad thing is, employees (as I observed) tend to accept what the administration is requiring without asking or without discussing why it has to be done. Something like "This is a Seventh-day Adventist institution, so working on Sabbath in here justifies my doing so" (I have the accountants in mind with this statement, not health workers).

[Gerr]

I just happened to stumble on this topic. Here are my 2 cents.

Jesus healed on the Sabbath, Mk 3. Am I therefore free to keep my clinic (I am a physician) open on Sabbath? Should I just leave my sick pts in the hospital alone on Sabbath? I don't think so. Should the hospital patients fend for themselves so the workers could keep the Sabbath? Again, I don't think so. If you have no car and your church is 10 or 20 miles away, should you walk so as to give your horse or the public transportation people also rest?

In a modern society, there are certain basic services that have to keep going even on Sabbath. The people that produce electricity, for instance. You can't shut down the sewage disposal unit on Sabbath because people will flush their toilets whether it's Sabbath or not. You need water, etc. etc. The question then is, while providing basic services on Sabbath, do we operate as business as usual? If you have Adventists & non-Adventists working in the same institution, then it is reasonable to exchange Sunday for Saturday duties. If all are SDAs, then rotating Sabbath work would, in my mind, solve the problem.

The more difficult question for me is the compensation on Sabbath work. Another would be if the whole world were to keep the Sabbath, what happens in international travel. We would have to shut the airports down 2 days of the week to avoid infringing on the Sabbath. If you leave Manila early Sunday, you would find no airports open in California since it would still be Sabbath there.

[Woody]

I like what someone above said ... Do you keep the OT Sabbath or the NT Sabbath.

It becomes a problem if you try to drive to see your patients. Don't forget ... you are not allowed to light a fire on the Sabbath. And when you drive your car ... you have lit a flame many of them.

[Guest gem]

Our Sanitarium and Hospital in Central PI have a chapel opened for Sabbath Services, so hospital workers (those who are available or have time)and even patients can attend and participate Sabbath School lessons and Services eventhough the main big church is just a few steps outside the hospital. And it's been working well.

[Guest charis]

Another related danger I have found over the years is that doing 'legitimate' medical work can be a good excuse not to attend Sabbath School and church.

Working two 16-hr shifts on the weekends for 15 years at the hospital here was one of the more *clever* things I did when I decided to become a pagan. Nobody questioned my absence from church, nor did I feel guilty about working on the Sabbath. It was the perfect set-up for my ....erhmmm... plans.

As a Christian now, I would have no problem working OCCASIONALLY on a Sabbath, but only in areas where there was an emergent need of care. For example, I would not perform routine mammography or other elective procedures on Sabbath. But it would present no problem to me to scan an MVA patient coming from the ER.

[Dr. Shane]

I think a lot of work needs to be between the believer and God. However I know a policeman that was disfellowshipped in Mexico for working on the Sabbath. So this is a very real issue in Adventism today.

If a persons works, YES, YES, YES, he or she should be compensated!!! The laborer is worthy of his hire. If doctors didn't charge on Saturday guess which day everyone would get sick. I have a Monday to Friday job so it would be easy to say those working on the Sabbath shouldn't get paid but if it was me trying to support a family and having to cook, clean or attend patients in a hospital, it would be quite different.

There are certain jobs that a person should never work on Sabbath. Retail is one that comes to mind. Construction, manufacturing and many repair services are other good example. I take no issue with local congregations that disfellowship members for working in those professions on the Sabbath. Yet others mentioned here such as public transportation, police, fire protection, public utilities and medical should be left between the believer and God.

[melvin mccarty]

Those people that were given the 10 C's had animals I believe who often require care 24/7. Did the angels look after the animals on Sabbath? Why didn't the commandment say "any unneccesary work" instead of ANY work and then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

mel

[Woody]

I can't imagine God requiring Adam and Eve to work 24/7 on Sabbath to care for the animals in the Garden of Eden. I think God created the Sabbath at Creation for our benefit not as a burden. If Eve would have tripped and fallen over a buffalo chip ... I am sure that Adam would have been allowed to pick her up and care for her.

[Taylor]

haha Redwood you are too funny but I agree. The Sabbath is such a blessing not a burden.

[Gerr]

Those people that were given the 10 C's had animals I believe who often require care 24/7. Did the angels look after the animals on Sabbath? Why didn't the commandment say "any unneccesary work" instead of ANY work and then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

mel

I believe that God's great Law of Love, like the Constitution of the USA, is a living principle, adapted to various circumstances.

Gerry

[miahnie]

Wow! Suddenly it became lively after a month's inactivity! I have to reread again everybody's response.

It's nice to read everyone's opinion.

Jesus healed on the Sabbath, Mk 3. Am I therefore free to keep my clinic (I am a physician) open on Sabbath? Should I just leave my sick pts in the hospital alone on Sabbath? I don't think so. Should the hospital patients fend for themselves so the workers could keep the Sabbath? Again, I don't think so. If you have no car and your church is 10 or 20 miles away, should you walk so as to give your horse or the public transportation people also rest?

[Dr. Shane]

Consider this. I work a 40-hour week as a pipe insulator Monday through Friday and get paid $25/hour (this is hypothetical). Thus I make $1,000/week. I love the Lord and look down my nose at everyone that believes differently than me. Of course, I am also a board member at the local SDA church. I am quite holy and pious and think everyone should model their lives after me.

A nurse at our church works a 40-hour week in a local hospital and gets paid $25/hour. In addition to paying her tithe, I tell her she should also toss in the $200 she gets paid each week for working on the Sabbath. No, she better not use that money to pay for her kids' church school tuition either.

So while I pay $100 tithe each week and another $100 offering, I expect the nurse to pay her $100 tithe plus the $200 she made from working on the Sabbath. That leaves me $800 of money to live self-righteously on for the week and her $700 - even though our jobs pay the same. She needs to be punished financially for working on the Sabbath and attending to sick people and helping them get well.

Does anything sound wrong with that?

[miahnie]

TT__TT

You made it sound that "no work compensation on Sabbath is an SOP". You made it sound so awful. But,you do have a point. But if the person voluntarily does not accept anything during her work on Saturdays, that, I believe is a different story.

Oh, well, I was not thinking of employees volunteering when I started this thread, I was more like

Should our hospital workers receive allowance/stipend/wage/salary when working during Sabbath? If they are receiving payment, isn't that livelihood rather than service?

so you are right in a sense.

But Matt 6:33 is still ringing in my head and tells me that I just give everything to God, and everything will fall in place. Hakuna Mathata. :)

[JeriAnne]

Sabbath Keeping is all well and good. But I know my definition of "Sabbath Keeping" has changed a whole lot since church going has become a toxic experience for my relationship with God. I am responsible for placing myself in places that will encourage and enable my spiritual growth and I have delightfully found that resting in Jesus Love for me and His infinite creativity has opened my heart and mind to "Sabbath Keeping" like nothing in my church attending past ever did!

For starters, the focus is not on Holding a day sacred (though that is OK as long as it isn't ALL that is happening) but rather on seeking the REST referred to in Hebrews that is yet to be found by God's people. That rest requires that I relax and let God call the shots! Seek relationship with my Saviour and allow that to take on all the joy and creativity it is capable of containing! I like to start EACH day with that desire and that prayer and I find that when I don't try to put God into some small box of my or anothers creating that the possibilities are endless!

When the 7th Day Sabbath comes I tell God, YOU have promised that this is to be a day when YOU will come near to me. You Created the Sabbath for MY benefit! You did NOT create me to fit into a "Sabbath MOLD". Show me YOURSELF, Open my eyes to see YOU in whatever the day holds! Give me creative ideas to plan and places to explore WITH YOU! Show me YOUR JOY so that the "Joy of the Lord is my STRENGTH".

Never before have I found "Sabbath Keeping Rest" more interactive! Never MORE relevant! Never More healing! Maybe one day God will bring me back to the once a week, go to church version. Till then I am rejoicing in the Joy of the Lord that gives me strength EVERY day! Often I find Him VERY near just as the seventh day is dawning!

[Woody]

Thanks JeriAnne .... I say to each his own as He leads us. You have a unique way. I am not sure it is for everyone. But it doesn't have to be. Some actually like the "mold". To bad for them. But again ... to each his own. The KEY here is that we have to be in tune to how God leads each of us.

I find the Sabbath the most blessed blessing we as humans can have. I go so far to say that the Sabbath saved my life. And I am referring to both my earthly life and my spiritual heavenly life.

[miahnie]

i agree with you JeriAnne. I am not limited to keeping the Sabbath in Church only. Even when attending church, a Christian can disobey this 4th commandment. I believe that church is meant for fellowship, a way for which a coal to not lose it's fire. But it is also important to keep our focus to Christ when we are not in the church during Sabbath for there are human tendencies from all the temptations that surround us, to forget the sacredness of it.

Keeping the Sabbath means spending our time with God, talking to our Father, getting to know our Saviour and working with the Holy Spirit.

[miahnie]

I've always find Sabbath a blessing.

I grew up feeling the sacredness surrounding this day. But having left home and now in a place where the nearest church is about an hour's drive away, I have lost that feeling of sacredness. I am longing to feel that once again.

[David Koot]

Hi Miahnie,

You have raised some very important points, I think. It doesn't sound good, what is happening at the hospital there. True, patients need to be cared for seven days a week. But in the old days, such offices as accounting, gift shop, etc., were closed on Sabbath. And, ancillary activities were not engaged in on Sabbath. Sounds like that has been changing. Too bad. It is not a good thing.

As for nurses and physicians being paid for working on Sabbath . . . Hmmmm. Pastors are paid for working on Sabbath. If the healthcare personnel are following Jesus' teaching in regard to their work activities on Sabbath, well, I would think that if pastors, Conference workers, etc. get paid, then it seems the health people should to. But that is just off the top of my head.

All the best,

Dave

[miahnie]

Thank you, David. Your opinion is enlightening.

[Woody]

The following statement of faith was accepted at the 55th General Conference Session (1990):

Quote:

" Neither Adventist institutions nor physicians and dentists should provide the same office or clinic services on the Sabbath as they do on weekdays ...discontinue all routine activities that could be postponed ... postpone elective diagnostic and therapeutic services ... elective surgery should be discouraged or limited on Fridays. "

[Woody]

Thanks JeriAnne .... I say to each his own as He leads us. You have a unique way. I am not sure it is for everyone. But it doesn't have to be. Some actually like the "mold". To bad for them. But again ... to each his own. The KEY here is that we have to be in tune to how God leads each of us.

I find the Sabbath the most blessed blessing we as humans can have. I go so far to say that the Sabbath saved my life. And I am referring to both my earthly life and my spiritual heavenly life.

I should explain this further. I love the sabbath. It is a natural part of me. But at one time it was my salvation. Like most laws ... the law was needed to be kept mostly when I was weak and suffering. There was a time I was weak, tempted and discouraged. This was when I needed RULES to save me. I really needed the LAW to keep me IN CHRIST.

I no longer need the letter of the law for it is in my heart to keep the Sabbath. I love doing it. But, I needed the Sabbath most when I kept it legalistically ... when I was hanging on by my fingernails. I now keep it out of Love. And I am blessed.