What is our church doing about this?

[Dr. Shane]

I am the one that posted the word terrorist. It was in response to this:

Quote:

We wonder why Islam practices acts like wanting to apply 40 lashes to an English teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammed.

40 lashes for naming a teddy bear sounds like an act of terror to me. Please accept my apology if the above comment was intended to be a complement.

[Woody]

Quote:

40 lashes for naming a teddy bear sounds like an act of terror to me.

I hear that they are calling for more than just 40 lashes. Thousands are protesting and calling for her execution.

I tried listening to the Sudanese TV yesterday to get the latest but I could not understand them too well. No English. So, I switched to Al Jazeera TV. All they were talking about was Iraq. Maybe the rest of the world thinks it is just common place.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I will propose just one way to look at this rather than to condemn. Consider what SDA Chaplains do ... They have committed to serve ALL faiths. This "may" mean that they would do something they do not believe in ... this would be done for Catholics or for Jews ... or for Mormons ... whoever they are serving at the time.

In this scenario that I have outlined ... they may actually baptize a Baby for instance. I think there could be many NON- SDA rites that they might perform.What about communion to a Catholic? Let's be considerate to our brothers in Christ. Do we kick our Chaplains out of the church? Well then ... I don't see the Mayor as any different. But anyway ... before we crucify him ... lets be Christian enough to get his side. Then if we don't like what he says ... then we can stone him.

Where is our good friend Gregory Matthews? Gregory ... could you help us out and confirm or deny what I have said?

I am reading this thread for the first time today. There are issues here that I would like to comment upon. But, I probably should read the entire thread before doing so. I do not think that I have time before I leave for church.

I hope that I can comment be the end of tomorrow, December 2. Someone please remind me if I forget.

GM

[Neil D]

Quote:

I never said anything about your saying I was a terrorist. Never mentioned it. If you go back and reread the posts, you will find it was someone else who said that, not I, my friend.

I would like to point out in very tongue in cheek fashion that there is a terrorist on this board...and it is me...So, all terrorist references should be directed to me, and me alone...Since I am not participating in this thread at this stage, perhaps we all should consider the terrorist threat a moot point here....

...End of cheeky post

[Woody]

Yes. Greg. Glad to have you back. I will look forward to your insight on this issue. Don't worry ... I won't let you get lost !!

[cardw]

Quote:

I never said anything about your saying I was a terrorist. Never mentioned it.

Never mentioned it? You must not read your own posts. You quoted the phrase "Yes, we know already. John317 is in the same class as Islamic terrorists." and proceeded to comment the following

Quote:

Isn't that just amazing?!! O if only people would read! Some people see more between the lines than they do on the line. I never got this kind of reaction when I was practicing homosexuality and active in the Gay Liberation Front. Everyone "loved" me then. (That's eros, not agape.) Oh well.

That is not only mentioning it, that's agreeing that the statement is true. Take responsibility for your own statements. I did read what you posted. You may have something else going on in your mind, but I can only go off of what you write.

[cardw]

Quote:

Where did I say that the homosexual rape is a greater abomination? It is not my fault the Bible makes the distinction between what is natural and unnatural. I am simply telling you what the Bible says. You could study it for yourself.

You stated this when you compared the two forms of rape with the term "at least" when you posted...

Quote:

The rape of any body by anyone, whether male or female, is a terrible crime, but the rape of a female's body by a male is at least not a perversion in the way that homosexual rape is.

The last time I checked the term "least" assumes there is a "greatest." In your sentence you are stating that there are two forms of rape. You connect the term "least" with female rape. This assumes that homosexual rape is the "greatest." I am simply reading the English language here.

Now, if the Bible is making a distinction, what distinction is it making? Distinction is another word for comparing. When we compare one thing with another we are making value judgments in the context of this discussion. Its implied because we are making moral judgments. The context of your comments clearly implies that homosexual sin is a greater abomination. You then pass this off to the Bible as if you aren't doing any interpreting. This is simply word games.

You are practicing a form of intellectual dishonesty. I cannot read your mind, but I can read what you post and I have to assume what you write is what you mean. Now either you don't understand the English language and the rational process of putting sentences together or you are willfully being deceptive by playing word games.

[cardw]

Quote:

40 lashes for naming a teddy bear sounds like an act of terror to me. Please accept my apology if the above comment was intended to be a complement.

This is not an act of terror because it is not in the context of war. Its an interpretation of Islamic law.

This is not unlike the Old Testament Laws against working on Sabbath or adultery. Instead of lashing you got the death penalty. If this judgment against this woman is an act of terror then stoning a man for gathering sticks on the Sabbath is an act of terror.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well stated, Richard! Thanks.

Women as property far better explains the barbarity of Lot than what we have been flooded with in this topic...

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

... I am discussing the way the Bible views things. I am not interested in opinion, either in mine or in anyone else's...

No, you are discussing your interpretation of what you think the Bible means. That is an opinion - yours.

Tom

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

... I am discussing the way the Bible views things. I am not interested in opinion, either in mine or in anyone else's...

No, you are discussing your interpretation of what you think the Bible means. That is an opinion - yours.

Tom

This is what I find pervasive in some circles Tom. They think that THEIR interpretations are "What the Bible says". Usually I find this in "conservative" circles. It demonstrates a lot of arrogence and superiority. It also show "intolerance" for those who might have a difference experience and understanding. Those people are just speaking "opinion" because their views differ from the one who feels he is in authority of interpreting scripture.

If we can't show more tolerance for Biblical interpretations then we are no better than the Pharisees. They thought their interpretations were the ONLY interpretations and all others were mere "opinions". And they set out to impose their "non-opinions" on others.

We can be bigger than this and accept all experiences and interpretations with tolerance instead of an elitest intolerance and judgment that seems to be deomonstrated by some.

Let's be united in our Love for Salvation IN Christ. Lets be united in sharing Salvation by Faith to others. We do not need to be united with all the interpretations of scripture. That will ONLY happen when we see Jesus. He will straighten us ALL out.

[John317]

That's excellent work, Olger. Thanks so much. I know that must have taken quite a lot of time and effort. You have a lot of good information there. I hope everyone takes the time to study it. I think it's well worth while any time we can find out what the Bible says about such important subjects, especially in light of the fact that we are constantly being bombarded by the popular message of today that homosexual sex is not really offensive or sinful. To me it's obvious that the only way a person can come to this conclusion is if they refuse to accept the evidence of Scripture. At the same time I think it is very very important to emphasis that God loves the sinner even while hating the sin. We HAVE to do the same.

We need to pray that God will open people's eyes to their danger before it's too late. We truly live in the time when it's just like it was in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. I take it as another sign of Christ's soon return. I suspect things of this nature will get much worse the closer we draw to that time.

God bless.

"John 3: 17"

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

This is not an act of terror because it is not in the context of war. Its an interpretation of Islamic law.

The definition of the word "terrorist" is itself controversial. Therefore when we start name-calling, tossing out insults and criticizing others, we open ourselves up to being interpreted in a variety of ways. I don't have to use the word "terrorist" in order to make someone else feel as if I have called them one. At this time in our nation's history, calling someone a terrorist is perhaps the greatest insult one can make. If I call someone a fanatical Muslim, a fundamentalist Muslim or a radical Muslim, they may well interpret that as being called a Muslim terrorist since Muslim terrorists are fanatical, fundamental and radical.

Now we ought to ask ourselves what is the difference between a Palestinian terrorist, an Al-Qeada terrorist and the fundamentalist Muslim in charge of Iran, Sudan and Saudi Arabia? They all have a fundamentalist interpretation of Islamic law. The only difference is that those that control nations use their civil governments to inflict their terror and those without control of a civil government must use methods like suicide bombers.

When I tell someone that their belief that homosexuality is a sin puts them in the same class of fundamentalists as the Muslims that sentence women to death for adultery, I am putting them in the same class with all radical Muslims.

Basically what we have here is a born-again Christian man that has found victory from his gay lifestyle expressing that homosexuality is a sin. We have other Christian men telling him that he is ignorant, his opinion is vile and he is in the same class as fundamental Muslims. That is all very inflammatory and does little to make C/A a friendly place. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Why do we have to call someone else ignorant and vile just because we disagree with their opinion?

[olger]

Indeed Shane.

oG

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

No, you are discussing your interpretation of what you think the Bible means. That is an opinion - yours.

Tom [/quote']

This is what I find pervasive in some circles Tom. They think that THEIR interpretations are "What the Bible says"...

So let us hear your interpretations of it. May I suggest that you do your own independent study of what the Bible teaches on these issues and give us your Bible evidence and the conclusions you have drawn from it. I would love to read it.

[Parade Orange]

I hope the people here understand what John 317 is saying and why he is speculating what he has posted.

Since at one time or another gay sex doesnt turn John317 and my stomach into bile. We look to God and scriptures regarding gay sex. As homos we need to get some sense of the abominable of the life we once were glad(or gay) in. So we fill up our minds with ideas and philosphies and theology on how abborannt gay sex is.

And since we know God's order of things is that man and woman do it but men arent suppossed to do it with each other we some how explain things away in our mind so we can get our heads straight.

so to speak

John317 voiced what he gathered on the whats and whys of Lots actions. He didnt figure it out perfectly and I'm still at a loss my self.

we dont live in a country where woman are thought of as property. So we are still trying to sort out these and other Bible stories with our 21st century gay mindset.

If u guys only understand the lengths a gay man has to go to in his mind just to fit in with white picket fence SDA Conservative Christian Breeding culture.

Sometimes you have to break it down in your head like...

Straight sex- good

Gay sex- bad

Straight forced assalting sex- goo..I mean bad

Gay romance hypnotic consentional sex- goo..I mean bad

and we get muddled in the process

and if thats over your head

SO WHAT!!!

Give him a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Parade Orange]

Olger thanku for that 'strange flesh' post.

I think that was especially for me!

I know the men didnt know they were angels

But Jude knew when he wrote what he wrote.

[cardw]

Quote:

Therefore when we start name-calling, tossing out insults and criticizing others, we open ourselves up to being interpreted in a variety of ways.

This sounds like a justification for poor reasoning. You are the one who brought the word terrorist to the table. Just admit that you misrepresented my position. I don't care that you implied that I was accusing Jim of being a terrorist. I DID intend to communicate that his reasoning is the same as Islamic fundamentalists. Not all Islamic fundamentalists are terrorists.

I consider Christian fundamentalists to be just as dangerous. Christian fundamentalism has demonstrated its ability to inflict violence on those it considers heretics for longer than Islam and on a much larger scale. Estimated deaths during the inquisitional period have been estimated to be from 50 to 150 million people.

The statement that Jim is ignorant is not an insult, its a fact. I am ignorant on any number of topics and I readily admit when I make a mistake. I state what I mean and I take responsibility for what I write. This is the norm for those who take intellectual honesty seriously.

I have been fortunate to have friends that speak honestly to me. I like to know when I am being ignorant. It keeps me from making a fool of myself next time. I would rather be spoken to honestly than nicely and I offer that to who ever I dialog with.

You wrote 4 paragraphs on something that could be answered in one simple sentence. "I'm sorry, I didn't realize that not all Islamic believers are terrorists. I will try to be more accurate in my critiques."

[Dr. Shane]

Again, the word terrorist doesn't have a definite meaning. It is quite controversial. So if I tell someone he is just like a Muslim fundamentalist and he takes that to mean I am telling him he is like a terrorist, that is a reasonable connection to make even if it isn't what I intended to say.

Quote:

I DID intend to communicate that his reasoning is the same as Islamic fundamentalists.

That is an inflammatory statement especially when our nation is fighting a war against Islamic fundamentalists.

Quote:

Not all Islamic fundamentalists are terrorists.

Since there are over 100 definitions of the word "terrorist," that statement can hardly be supported.

Quote:

Christian fundamentalism has demonstrated its ability to inflict violence on those it considers heretics

So now John317 is in the same class as the papists during the Dark Ages too? That is quite inflammatory especially to a Seventh-day Adventist.

Quote:

the statement that Jim is ignorant is not an insult, its a fact. I am ignorant on any number of topics and I readily admit when I make a mistake.

We need to choose our words very carefully, especially when our communications is limited to text only. I once told a subcontractor that he had an obligation to look out for the safety of his employees because they were all ignorant. He was deeply offended and even took it as a racist insult. He was Hispanic and all his workers Hispanic. I had observed several OSHA violations by his workers and was telling him they needed to be trained. My use of the word "ignorant" was correct but when I learned of how he had taken it, I wrote him a long letter of apology. I learned that word can be quite inflammatory.

[melvin mccarty]

Perhaps the conclusion we should draw from all this should be.......If Lot meets the standard of a "righteous man" then there is hope for all of us! :-)

mel

[Parade Orange]

Mel,

How do u do?

Very well thanku.

Yes I agree. God is gracious to all of us and we are rightouse simply cause Jesus is rightouseness.

But I know alot of wonderful christians(and some not wonderful) who dont do perfectly or think perfectly or reason perfectly and sometimes make the worst mistakes and generations after feel the effects.

And still they keep on keeping on cause of JESUS!

and are named among the saints

[Woody]

Quote:

So let us hear your interpretations of it. May I suggest that you do your own independent study of what the Bible teaches on these issues and give us your Bible evidence and the conclusions you have drawn from it. I would love to read it.

Honestly ... I have no need to do as directed by you. I will do what I need to do. But I would very much like for you to do as I have asked ... and that is to stop telling people that what THEY believe and have faith in is NOT of the Bible and then putting yourself up by saying what they have is just opinion and what you have is what the Bible says.

I have heard this far too much on CA. If we have to put others down by saying their faith is only OPINION and your faith is "THE WORD OF GOD" ... then we might as well forget about drawing people to Christ.

What you have said is merely YOUR interpretation. What I have said is merely MY interpretation. We both feel that it is the WORD OF GOD. But that is our personal belief. We should not be so arrogant as to tell someone that their interpretation is just opinion and ours is truth. Let that person decide for themselves before putting them down.

Just my humble interpretation of what the behaviour of Christians should be if we want to share the LOVE of God. The Holy Spirit will do His job if we present it in LOVE and not arrogance.

[Woody]

Quote:

My use of the word "ignorant" was correct but when I learned of how he had taken it, I wrote him a long letter of apology. I learned that word can be quite inflammatory.

I am very curious about this. Very Interesting. Does the same thing apply to this forum? And towards ALL here?

If we use what the dictionary and others indicate is hostile and inflammatory ... does an apology need to be made?

Hmmm.

[carolaa]

I hope the people here understand what John 317 is saying and why he is speculating what he has posted.

Since at one time or another gay sex doesnt turn John317 and my stomach into bile. We look to God and scriptures regarding gay sex. As homos we need to get some sense of the abominable of the life we once were glad(or gay) in. So we fill up our minds with ideas and philosphies and theology on how abborannt gay sex is.

And since we know God's order of things is that man and woman do it but men arent suppossed to do it with each other we some how explain things away in our mind so we can get our heads straight.

so to speak

John317 voiced what he gathered on the whats and whys of Lots actions. He didnt figure it out perfectly and I'm still at a loss my self.

we dont live in a country where woman are thought of as property. So we are still trying to sort out these and other Bible stories with our 21st century gay mindset.

If u guys only understand the lengths a gay man has to go to in his mind just to fit in with white picket fence SDA Conservative Christian Breeding culture.

Sometimes you have to break it down in your head like...

Straight sex- good

Gay sex- bad

Straight forced assalting sex- goo..I mean bad

Gay romance hypnotic consentional sex- goo..I mean bad

and we get muddled in the process

and if thats over your head

SO WHAT!!!

Give him a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for that post! Those of us who are heterosexual really have no clue, and some of the responses to certain posts have been really unhelpful to the civil discussion that was going on.

[cardw]

Quote:

Again, the word terrorist doesn't have a definite meaning. It is quite controversial. So if I tell someone he is just like a Muslim fundamentalist and he takes that to mean I am telling him he is like a terrorist, that is a reasonable connection to make even if it isn't what I intended to say.

Shane you are simply being lazy. Terrorist has a very clear meaning. I did not use the word Muslim. I used the word Islamic. Muslim refers to the person. Islam refers to the religion. Again you are being lazy. Go look up the word if you don't know what it means.

A terrorist is a person who is involved in the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear. You don't have to be a Muslim to be a terrorist and not all Muslims are terrorists. Again you are fostering ignorance.

Terrorism has quite a different meaning than fundamentalist. I am attempting to be very specific in my comments. You are willfully being ambiguous in an attempt to hide your own ignorance and place blame on me for things you are making up in your own mind.

I am more interested in what is true than what is nice. The beliefs that you promote and the methods of dialog that you use are not nice. They are filled with prejudice, misrepresentation, and indicate a lack of understanding. I feel no obligation to soft pedal lazy thinking, just because you are unwilling to put forth the effort to do a little research.

You are free to hit me with facts and tell me like it is. I will not be offended. I am not offended now. If you think that I'm not nice, then you need to go out and dialog in the free exchange of ideas.