adamb Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 As Adventists we like to talk politics when we look at prophecy or talk of religious liberty. In this crucial time were living in, I am wondering why I haven't seen any discussion on the presidential candidate Ron Paul, who is the only candidate running who has a record of standing by the Constitution, which means he will be a true advocate of the separation of church and state and could be used by God to allow for more time to spread the 3 angels messages. Is anyone out there aware of him? Do you recognize your responsibiltiy to vote? not just in the national election but in your states primary or caucus? I'm not saying he is the answer to everything, but he could help curb the erosion of both our religious and civil liberties. I say Seventh-day Adventists stand up and let your voice be heard, not only in spreading the full gospel message, but in supporting Ron Paul and religious liberty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 28, 2007 Share Posted November 28, 2007 Quote: Do you recognize your responsibiltiy to vote? Surely as a good SDA ... you are only referring to the men and not the women. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Quote: Surely as a good SDA ... you are only referring to the men and not the women. LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL That's a good knee-slapper! I think it is a good rule for the church not to tell its members how to vote. If we really believe in a separation of church and state, we really shouldn't be telling people who to vote for... should we? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Personally, I like that Ron Paul is from Texas. I think he is a little over-concerned about government intrusion into our lives. He isn't a radical conservative as shown by his record. I am not aware of the last time a Congressman got the nomination. * Voted NO on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage. (Jul 2006) * Voted NO on making the PATRIOT Act permanent. (Dec 2005) * Voted NO on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage. (Sep 2004) * Voted YES on protecting the Pledge of Allegiance. (Sep 2004) * Voted NO on constitutional amendment prohibiting flag desecration. (Jun 2003) * Voted YES on banning gay adoptions in DC. (Jul 1999) * Voted YES on ending preferential treatment by race in college admissions. (May 1998) * Rated 67% by the ACLU, indicating a mixed civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002) * Opposes the death penalty. (Jan 2007) * Voted YES on funding for alternative sentencing instead of more prisons. (Jun 2000) * Voted NO on more prosecution and sentencing for juvenile crime. (Jun 1999) * Legalize industrial hemp. (Jan 2007) * Voted NO on military border patrols to battle drugs & terrorism. (Sep 2001) * Voted NO on subjecting federal employees to random drug tests. (Sep 1998) * War on Drugs has abused Bill of Rights . (Dec 2000) * Legalize medical marijuana. (Jul 2001) Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Quote: Voted NO on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage Not the usual approach by Christians. Quote: Opposes the death penalty. Not a Biblical approach ? Last time I checked the Bible ... the death penalty was supported. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Quote: I think it is a good rule for the church not to tell its members how to vote. If we really believe in a separation of church and state, we really shouldn't be telling people who to vote for... should we? I am with you on that. When our Pastor passed out the Christian Right recommended candidates ... I objected because I think the church should stay out of any kind of suggestions on how we should vote. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 29, 2007 Share Posted November 29, 2007 Often times on Liberty Insider issues are discussed. Liberty tends to do a good job in showing where each side supports certain things that we as a denomination value but also holds positions that make us uneasy. I have not watched every episode of Liberty Insider but from those I have watched, I have never seen them tell us we should support any specific party or candidate. I think if we are honest with ourselves, we will admit there is no ideal candidate nor is any candidate totally evil. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Quote: I think it is a good rule for the church not to tell its members how to vote. If we really believe in a separation of church and state, we really shouldn't be telling people who to vote for... should we? I am with you on that. When our Pastor passed out the Christian Right recommended candidates ... I objected because I think the church should stay out of any kind of suggestions on how we should vote. I totally agree. Bad, bad pastor!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I don't want anyone to think this "bad" "bad" Pastor was my wife ... this was a few years ago before my wife was a Pastor. But if it had been her ... she would have gotten an ear full. Just for the record. By the way ... this Pastor is no longer an SDA Pastor .... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 As much as I don't think it really matters who is the president, I wish Ron Paul would even have a chance of becoming one. It's quite clear that if he had he probably would be shot like Kennedy. If I would describe government of today in one word... it would be bureaucracy. That which will never bite a hand that feeds... which is its own hand . Historically overgrown bureaucracies always crumble under their own weight. More recently, Soviet Union is a great example. Believe it or not, there are more similarities between US and Soviets than there are differences . I know firsthand. I can list the major ones if you'd like. 1) Property taxes 2) Progressive taxation 3) Social Welfare Programs... many of which are enforced 4) Public School Education (indoctrination...) 5) Both overspent on military 6) Economies ran by central banking system 7) Eminent domain 8) Both have "democratic" elections of people approved by party system... people outside of the party system have no breath of ever winning major decision making post 9) Both spy on their own citizens 10) Both countries exercise near unlimited control over individuals. The state is always esteemed above individual. 11) Both government are hiding behind the secrecy of their decisions in the name of national security 12) Both governments own enormous amount of assets which people have to have license to use 13) Both countries will not permit marriage without a license, thus they exercise authority over marriage 14) Underage children are state's property. If you abuse state's property... state will repossess it. I could go on. But the point is... it's sad how naive people are thinking that you could enter a corrupt institution comprised of millions of individuals and singlehandedly make an impact... even as president . If Ron Paul ever wins presidency... he would be blackballed in congress as he is being blackballed there right now. Poor guy. Thinking about "evil people" like Saddam for example. I feel pity on them, because they are authors of their own demise. Once they have created system of control... there are millions of people who would feed of it. Even if Saddam would repent and decided to change... his own guards would probably shot him in fear of loosing their jobs. I know I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Wow! What's to say? The world is at an end, everything is futile... Why are we to continue? Makes you want to take a gun and kill yourself because there is no hope in the world...you are being controled by some goverment entity somewhere.... Holy Shades of "the matrix"! Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 I understand and appreciate your sarcasm. The point is not that government controls YOU... the point is that we are deceived into controlling each other. Government is people. So it's all a huge game played with our minds. If God indeed gives you free choices in life to decide whether you want to follow him, Satan would be the opposite. He does it by means of control through deception and fear. True or untrue? So, if it so stupid to believe of systematic control of human minds through the ages... then how do you explain Germany following Hitler? How do you explain Soviets having the whole nation under the smokescreen of communism? China... Japan... Cuba... You name it. I don't dismiss that there are purpusefull function that Government serves. But when you are being kicked out of your house when you are unable to pay property taxes... do you really have any property rights? My point is NOT that everything is so hopeless that we ought to just give up. My point if that politics is not the way of Christ. His way is from down up. Transforming minds of the people who will then make educated decisions. If you are looking for a "savior" political figure to come and fix things up, you will probably not find one here. So to speak, our kingdom is not of this world... and that's the message essentially. The way to our world is through Christ transforming our minds to see "what's up" and understanding that His way is THE WAY. That what gives up courage, and not somebody promicing to make our lives comfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Quote: The point is not that government controls YOU... the point is that we are deceived into controlling each other. Government is people. So it's all a huge game played with our minds.If God indeed gives you free choices in life to decide whether you want to follow him, Satan would be the opposite. He does it by means of control through deception and fear. True or untrue? Wow! If goverment is people and people is controling people then...........................................what? If you are looking for 'secret knowledge', then I have some that you have not comprehended and may not be able to dwell on..... "God is love" ...If God is love, then PEOPLE, who were born of God's will, are a reflection of Him.... Now there's a scary thought...And to dwell upon Satan is to reduce one's view of life and happiness...That is not to say that evil doesn't exist, but rather that evil is a aboration of the good that is here.... Oh, and Satan is not the opposite of choice....Satan is much smarter than that.... You need to think outside your box....God and Satan are much bigger than your foundation arguments... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Wow! If goverment is people and people is controling people then...........................................what? If you are looking for 'secret knowledge', then I have some that you have not comprehended and may not be able to dwell on..... "God is love" ...If God is love, then PEOPLE, who were born of God's will, are a reflection of Him.... There's no "secret knowledge" in that statement. Love is only love if it exists in context of choice . One of expressions of God's love is giving us that choice. If we choose to be ignorant of it, then it's our choice. If people are "reflection" of God, then there should be a reasonable explanation as far as why they sin. Would there be original human sin without Satan deceiving Eve and Eve then consequently deceiving Adam? So, Satan does have a great role to play as far as deception goes. "Control" does not mean making robots out of people. Control means creating collective mindset of dillusion as people don't really know what they believe and they are dished out choices that are leading to the same destination. They search for truth and they just give up and become skeptics after several attempts and settle for packaged and easy answers. As an example... most people believe theory of relativity to be true and revolutionary, but most people could not explain it to you. Same with economics and money. Today Keynsian theory of economics being practiced on worldwide scale, and we except it without any second guessing because it is "oficcialy proven". While I don't think it's practical to question every "belief" you live out... yet there are many things that we just believe because they are "official explanation"... we do it to such degree that everything outside of it we tend to dub as "loonacy", just because it sounds too unbelievable and unpopular. Yet logically there's no such thing as impossible... Impossible is a paradox in itself, because impossibility has to be possible for it to be impossible . As you can see I don't even attempt to put God or Satan is a box. I understand my epistemological limitation , that's why we have faith ( which is essentially a test ). But to say that there's not such thing as people controling (once again not like robots, but by way of deception) others.... how do you explain such phenomenas as Naziism and Communism leaders? People do "choose" their leaders, but when choices are reduced to #1 and #2 and both of these are simply disguised OPPOSAMES is there a choice? So that's what I'm talking about here, and NOT lack of mental choices on part of people. Franklin D. Roosevelt was quoted saying "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, it was planned that way." I have my reasons to believe what that man is saying as he had his reasons to believe that too. I don't expect you to understand my views based on a couple of forum posts, but the least I hope is to make people ask some questions and make according choices based on their answers. It's none of my business what you believe, and I will be responsible for my choices according to knowledge that I've been given. We tend to except that everything that we believe is THE TRUTH, and the scary thought is that NOT everything that we believe is the truth. So if everything is not... our belief systems need constant evaluation and reaffirmation. If these add up, good! If not, then we need to do some praying and searching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Quote: We tend to except that everything that we believe is THE TRUTH, and the scary thought is that NOT everything that we believe is the truth. So if everything is not... our belief systems need constant evaluation and reaffirmation. AMEN We will have a lot of re-programming to be done when we get to Heaven. And our learning and re-learning will go on for a long time. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Quote: "Control" does not mean making robots out of people. Control means creating collective mindset of dillusion as people don't really know what they believe and they are dished out choices that are leading to the same destination. They search for truth and they just give up and become skeptics after several attempts and settle for packaged and easy answers. CoAspen....Are you a reflection of this? Bravus?...Redwood? ....Shane...? Me thinks there is a lot to be said here....but it might be falling on deaf ears.... Oh well....I am gone for the weekend....Enjoy the board without me..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Quote: Enjoy the board without me..... IMPOSSIBLE Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Oh well....I am gone for the weekend....Enjoy the board without me..... I pray that your traveling were safe over this incredibly cold weekend! It was -50C in Russia, and -4F (-15C) here in Iowa. Really appreciate your discussion too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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