Women in Ministry

[Beryl]

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I Tim. 2:12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.

How the menfolk love to quote this text!! However, I am going to quote some things that they would rather hide.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one MAN , and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned------"

SDA Bible Commentary, Vo. 1. p. 231 "Fateful decision! Instead of waiting until he should have the opportunity of discussing the whole tragic matter with God, he took his fate into his own hands. Adam's fall is the more tragic because he did not doubt God, nor was he deceived like Eve, he acted in the certain expectation that God's terrible threat would come true.

"Deplorable as was Eve's transgression and fraught as it was with potential woe for the human family, her choice did not necessarily involve the race in the .penalty for her transgression. It was the deliberate choice of Adam, in the full understanding of an express command of God -- rather than hers-- that made sin and death the inevitable lot of mankind. Eve was deceived; Adam was not.....Had Adam remained loyal to God in spite of Eve's disloyalty, divine wisdom would yet have solved the dilemma for him and averted disaster for the race."

Patriarchs and Prophets, pp 56, 57. "...all these blessings were lost sight of in the fear of losing that one gift which in his eyes outvalued every other. Love, gratitude, loyalty to the Creator, -- all were overborne by love to Eve...He did not realise that the same Infinite Power who had from the dust of the earth created him, a living beautiful form, and had in love given him a companion, could supply her place. He resolved to share her fate; if she must die, he would die with her. After all, he reasoned, might not the words of the wise serpent be true? ....He seized the fruit, and quickly ate.

OK, I know that God foretold what would be the result of what Eve had done, but -- PP.59 "Had the principles enjoined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, though growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him, has too often rendered the lot of woman very bitter, and made her life a burden."

And so, in order to perpetuate their case, men still go back to Eden and put on women restrictions that God has never placed there! Oh, yes, God foretold what would happen when talking with Adam and Eve.

God has promised the gift of the Holy Spirit to both men and women, and what is the Holy Spirit given to mankind for? In every case that I have studied it is to further the giving of the gospel.

By the way, God never cursed Adam or Eve. He cursed the serpent (Satan), he cursed the ground (for Adam's sake), but he never cursed either Adam or Eve.

Beryl

[Woody]

WOW !!!

[John317]

where is the text which indicates that any of this applies to 2007?

mel

Your question implies that we shouldn't study the Bible to see what it teaches regarding women in ministry. Do you believe this?

I think that studying all of the Bible's texts related to any subject in order to discover the Bible's view is worth while. That is why I am looking at every Bible verse related to women in ministry.

To answer your question directly, please refer to 2 Timothy 3: 16, 17 and 1 Cor. 14: 34-38. Here Paul says that "all Scripture is inspired of God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." That includes the verses dealing with women in ministry. The Bible is not outdated or obsolete when it comes to its teachings on this subject or on any other subject.

Take another look at 1 Cor. 14: 34-39. Right after verses 34, 35, Paul adds something very interesting. Verses 36-38 shows that there were people in the church who were resisting Paul's directions. Therefore in verse 37, Paul reinforces what he has said by reminding the believers that he is giving them, not his own opinions, but "the Lord's commandment." Then in verse 39, he says that if anyone does not recognize that it's the Lord's commandment, that individual is not recognized.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

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where is the text which indicates that any of this applies to 2007?

The answer to that is easy, Mel -- such a text does not exist. It was cultural in their day, and our culture has changed, and somehow we must change with it.

Beryl

That argument is often made, but where does Paul say that the reason for his instructions are due to culture or to something unique to the church at Corinth?

In 1 Tim. 2: 13, 14, Paul clearly states the reason for his instructions. What reason does Paul give?

Or is it ever a good thing to ignore the reason that Paul gives and substitute a reason of our own that conflicts with Paul's?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

I Tim. 2:12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.

....Romans 5:1 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one MAN , and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned------"

SDA Bible Commentary, Vo. 1. p. 231 "Fateful decision! Instead of waiting until he should have the opportunity of discussing the whole tragic matter with God, he took his fate into his own hands. Adam's fall is the more tragic because he did not doubt God, nor was he deceived like Eve, he acted in the certain expectation that God's terrible threat would come true.

"Deplorable as was Eve's transgression and fraught as it was with potential woe for the human family, her choice did not necessarily involve the race in the .penalty for her transgression. It was the deliberate choice of Adam, in the full understanding of an express command of God -- rather than hers-- that made sin and death the inevitable lot of mankind. Eve was deceived; Adam was not.....Had Adam remained loyal to God in spite of Eve's disloyalty, divine wisdom would yet have solved the dilemma for him and averted disaster for the race." ....

I agree with everything you posted here.

How would God have solved the dilemma for Adam and averted disaster for the race if Adam had remained loyal?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

He said his disciples are not to use titles.

Hey .... I like this thought. That would put both Men and Women Pastors on the same level playing field. I think most would be agreeable to this.

You may like that thought, but where is it taught in the NT?

Men and women have equal access to God and salvation, to be sure, but where does the Bible say that since God views women as of equal value, both men and women should be doing the same things in the home or in the church? That is the question.

For instance, the OT priesthood that God arranged included no women. Again, when Jesus chose the apostles, he did not choose any women. And the NT assumes that elders, bishops, pastors -- the leaders of the church-- would be men. Was God's arrangement wrong?

Does the Bible contain any indications that the church should make both men and women the leaders in the church? If so, where do you find it?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

but where does Paul say that the reason for his instructions are due to culture or to something unique to the church at Corinth?

The truth that it was cultural ... was so obvious that it was not needed to be stated. It is so contrary to scripture that stating it was not necessary.

This argument is the same one that is used by those who say the Sabbath is not in the New Testament. And it is a dangerous agrument. Christians were keeping the Sabbath. It was not needed to state it so many times.

So, with this issue. It was common knowledge and obvious from scripture.

[Woody]

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Does the Bible contain any indications that the church should make both men and women the leaders in the church? If so, where do you find it?

YES ! PTL . Many . They have been well articulated here. But , as is your right ... you have rejected them. No need to repeat them over and over. Just reread what has already been posted.

[John317]

Quote:

but where does Paul say that the reason for his instructions are due to culture or to something unique to the church at Corinth?

The truth that it was cultural ... was so obvious that it was not needed to be stated. It is so contrary to scripture that stating it was not necessary.

This argument is the same one that is used by those who say the Sabbath is not in the New Testament. And it is a dangerous agrument. Christians were keeping the Sabbath. It was not needed to state it so many times.

So, with this issue. It was common knowledge and obvious from scripture.

But this totally ignores what Paul himself gives as the reason for his instructions.

There are several ways of proving from the NT that the issue was not a local problem unique to Corinth:

1) 1 Cor. 14: 33b says, "As in all the churches of the saints...." So that it is clear Paul is not giving instructions that apply only because of a local problem, but what he says evidently applies "in all the churches of the saints" (See NIV, ASV, NRSV).

2) The fact that Paul wrote First Corinthians in 55 AD and then said the same thing about 10 years later (between 63 and 65 AD) when he wrote First Timothy regarding the church at Ephesus, shows that Paul's instructions in First Corinthians were not due to a problem unique to the Corinthians.

3) 1 Tim. 2: 12-13 says, "I permit no woman to teach, nor have dominion over a man... because Adam was first formed, then Eve..." Therefore Paul points us back to creation and the Fall as the reasons for his instructions. He does not point us to a local problem in either Ephesus or Corinth.

4) Another reason that Paul himself gives for his instructions is based on what "the law says" (1 Cor. 14: 34).

5) Finally, Paul uses very strong language in verses 37, 38 when he says that he has written the commandment of the Lord and that if anyone is inspired of God, they will acknowledge that this is what his instructions actually are.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

There are several ways of proving from the NT that the issue was not a local problem unique to Corinth:

Where do you get this idea of a "local" problem?

It was a world-wide problem and custom

[John317]

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This text is lifted from a study that I wrote in 2003. I was asked to make a presentation to the church as Men's Ministry leader. There is a lot more to the study.

Perhaps you should add to your study the words of Galatians 3:28,29, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

We are certainly all one in Christ. We all, both male and female, have equal access to God and to salvation. But that is not addressing the question of whether God intends both male and female to have the same roles and functions in the church or in the home. That is the question here.

Inspiration clearly stresses the mutual dependence of men and women in Christ. Paul says, “Nevertheless, neither is the woman without the man, nor the man without the woman in the Lord” (1 Cor. 11:11). Neither is complete without the other.

In the matter of salvation, both stand on equal footing before God. Paul says concerning those who have obeyed the gospel: “[T]here can be no male and female; for ye all are one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28). Though, as Professor Colin Brown observes:

This, however, is not a call to abolish all earthly relationships. Rather, it puts these relationships in the perspective of salvation history. As Paul goes on to say, “And if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:29; cf. also Rom. 10:2). All who are in Christ have the same status before God; but they do not necessarily have the same function (570).

Please notice that Paul's statement in Gal. 3: 28, 29 is not a contradiction of what Paul says in 1 Cor. 11: 3, that "the head of the woman is the man." Clearly Paul did not see these things as being in conflict.

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What some the men of today seem to forget is that we are not living in the Patriarchal Age -- we are living in modern society, and, as God overlooked many things that happened in those days (multiple wives, male dominance, concubines in abundance, etc. etc.)because He chooses to work within the existing cultures, so today He chooses to work within a Western culture (where that applies), and an African culture (where that applies) -- and so on....

This is ignoring the fact that Paul's explanation for what he says in 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 is "the law" and the Lord's commandment. God is the one who arranged for the OT priesthood to be all men. Christ chose all men as his apostles, and the Holy Spirit directed the apostles in the organization of the NT leadership of the church.

I am interested in learning what the Bible says that should lead us to anticipate that the church would eventually have women elders and pastors.

For instance, in the NT most of the leaders were Jewish. But the Bible has many indications that the time would come when the church would accept gentiles and no longer be necessarily led by Jews. Where does the Bible give clear indications that the local church would one day be led and ruled equally by women and men?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

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I am interested in learning what the Bible says that should lead us to anticipate that the church would eventually have women elders and pastors.

You've already heard and rejected it. Please reread the previous posts. This is just a rehash.

[John317]

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There are several ways of proving from the NT that the issue was not a local problem unique to Corinth:

Where do you get this idea of a "local" problem?

It was a world-wide problem and custom

That's a claim and a conclusion. But what is the evidence that it is true? What is the evidence that the same problem that occurred in Corinth and caused Paul to write what he did in his letter to them, also occurred in Ephesus some 8 or 10 years later? Unless you can show evidence for your claim, there's no reason to accept it as true and valid.

It's never a good idea to substitute our reasons for Bible instructions in the place of the reasons that the Bible itself gives for those instructions.

Remember that in 1 Timothy 2: 12, Paul's instructions that he "allows no woman to teach or to have dominion over a man" includes ALL WOMEN, not just some who are causing problems. It includes Priscilla, of course. It would also, of course, include Phoebe. Paul means that he does not allow any woman to take the teaching authority of the elders and overseers who have the responsibility of teaching when the church is assembled.

Finally, if the problem was due to the way only some women were behaving in the churches, it's difficult to explain why Paul made the rule that "no woman" could teach or have dominion over a man in any of the churches of the saints, and then point us to the law and back to creation as the reasons for his prohibition.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Cultural from what I see.

[John317]

Cultural from what I see.

Well, there's no doubt that the Corinthian church had a lot of terrible problems. We see those all through the letters. But the question is whether they were the reason for Paul's instructions regarding the women's role in the churches. I think you can see why many scholars and Bible students seriously question the idea that culture was the reason for what Paul said.

I haven't spent much time on CA for the last two weeks, so I am going through the thread to see if anyone has explained how the Bible indicates that God wants women to be elders and overseers or bishops in the local churches. Up to now I haven't seen any good evidence for it. It seems to me that producing such clear evidence and arguments is the only way to bring unity to the church on the issue.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

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arguments is the only way to bring unity to the church on the issue.

May I ask you a question?

What is your definition of "unity" ?

[John317]

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I haven't spent much time on CA for the last two weeks, so I am going through the thread to see if anyone has explained how the Bible indicates that God wants women to be elders and overseers or bishops in the local churches. Up to now I haven't seen any good evidence for it. It seems to me that producing such clear evidence and arguments is the only way to bring unity to the church on the issue.

May I ask you a question?

What is your definition of "unity" ?

It's what the NT says it is: "all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among" us, but all "be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (1 Cor. 1: 10); being "like-minded" (2 Cor. 13: 11); being "of the same mind with another according to Christ Jesus" (Romans 15: 5); "of the same mind in the Lord" (Phil. 4: 2; "of the same mind toward one another" (Romans 12: 16); "endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph. 4: 3).

Unity on any doctrine or practice occurs when the church believes the same doctrines and teachings in North America that it does elsewhere in the world. For instance, the church is united on the weekly Sabbath, the Second Coming, etc. When it comes to women in ministry, specifically, unity will occur when the church no longer has some conferences which ordain women as elders and pastors and many other conferences where the members largely believe that it is not a Biblical practice and therefore don't do it.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

As we work our way through all the verses in the NT having to do with the officers of the church, we're looking for those that deal directly with woman's role in the church. The question here is, does the NT give evidence that the NT church had women elders, bishops, overseers, and pastors; or that the church clearly anticipated a time when there would be women elders and pastors?

So far, I've posted all the verses that deal with deacons, ministers, elders. Of these, the only ones that refer to women are Luke 1: 2; Romans 16: 1, 3; 1 Tim 3: 11; 5: 2; and Titus 2: 3.

Now, below, please find all the verses that refer to bishops, overseers and pastors. On a separate post, I will give the remainder of the words-- about 10-- dealing with church officers.

Do any of them make reference to women?

After all the Bible verses concerning the officers of the church are posted, we can discuss them individually and talk about whether they support women as pastors and elders. I would also like to discuss more fully the Old Testament evidence related to women in ministry.

(I believe this information is important and directly related to the subject of this thread. The fact that some Greek words are mentioned will not be a hinderance to anyone's understanding the information given. Everything is given in English. It's not intended to be a discussion of Greek. The Greek words are only given in order to help organize the post according to their English counterparts and to show that all of the various words related to church officers are being dealt with.)

1) Poimeen-- Strong's #4166: Pastor, shepherd, superintendent, guardian.

a) Verses where it means "shepherd" and is so translated: Matt. 9: 36; 25: 32; 26: 31; Mark 6: 34; 14: 27; Luke 2: 8, 15, 18, 20; John 10: 2, 11, 12, 14, 16; Hebrews 13: 20; 1 Peter 2: 25.

Of the spiritual gifts in the church, Eph. 4: 11-- "pastors" (noun plural masculine). (The original language shows that "pastors and teachers" refer to individuals who have both spiritual gifts. On the thread, Greek Issues, more detail about may be given.)

2) Episkopos-- Strong's #1985-- bishop, overseer. All are masculine gender and refer to men.

a) Acts 20: 28-- "overseers" (RSV; NIV).

Phil. 1: 1-- "bishops" (RSV); "overseers" (NIV).

c) 1 Tim. 3: 2-- "bishop" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV).

d) Of overseers', or bishops', qualifications, Titus 1: 7-- "bishop" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV).

e) Of Christ, 1 Peter 2: 25-- "guardian" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV; NKJV).

3) Episkopee-- Strong's #1984-- fem. noun (for definition, see below).

a) Luke 19: 44-- "visitation" (RSV; NRSV; NKJV); "of God's coming" (NIV)

Acts 1: 20-- "office" (RSV; NASB); "place of leadership" (NIV). NASB, margin: "office of overseer."

c) 1 Tim. 3: 1-- "office of bishop" (RSV); "overseer" (NIV).

d) 1 Peter 2: 12-- "visitation" (RSV; NKJV); "comes to judge" (NRSV); "visits" (NIV).

Next will come about 10 more NT words related to church leadership and officers.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Beryl]

We have had all of this over and over again. Why can't it be accepted that we are no longer living in a Patriarchal Age. No longer do we travel by donkeys and camels. No longer do the men wear flowing robes. We may nit like what has happened to our culture, but it has happened, and we must live with it -- and work for the other people within that culture in ways that will reach the people -- and that means having both genders working together, in full harmony..

Beryl

[delta]

Hi Beryl,

Why don't you make a difference first and explain which one is fundamental-eternal principal that should never change VS which one that is changable?

[Beryl]

Quote:

which one is fundamental-eternal principal that should never change VS which one that is changable?

Hi, Delta. There are some things which do not change -- such as the 10 commandments, but there are some things which DO change -- such as our culture. Going back to the way women were treated, with no rights at all, to the time when they were, at last, given the right to vote -- that was a culture change.

Back in the time of the patriarchs women were "given" to a man as his wife -- even in situations such as Isaac, where his father's servant was entrusted to find a wife for Isaac. It was a matter of, "well, here is your wife" never met before, no say, except we know that in this case God obviously led in the selection.

Then we have the disgraceful story in Judges where this man was travelling with his concubine (or 2nd class wife) and was taken into a home (you can read the details in Judges 19) and the men of the town hammered on the door wanting the traveller to come out so that he could be raped. The man of the house refused, and the poor concubine was sent out to be used and abused all night by these men until she died. That was the status of women in that era. When Christ came He lifted the status of women. However, Jesus still worked within the bounds of the culture -- while still lifting their status.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, God gave it to both men and women. Spirit-filled women worked alongside the apostles proclaiming the good news of salvation. There was one instance which Paul spoke about, when some of the women were pushing the cultural boundaries a little too far, and Paul had to lay down a few rules for those in that situation.

As the time came for the 1844 movement, God firstly chose a man to be His prophet (at that time women were still considered by the world as the "inferior beings"), but when the man refused, God chose a young woman who would take on the task for Him. This again was pushing the culture to the limit, but the culture was changing. Women were eventually given the vote -- a massive culture change -- and in the Western world women were gradually given greater freedom within the changing culture of the day.

As Christians, God has given to ALL the task of taking His Gospel to all the world. As Christ worked within the culture of His day, so we are expected to do the same. As we come to the closing days of earth's history, we find in the Western World a culture that fully accepts women in absolutely any role. Yes, as in each culture there is the good side and the bad side, today women have the freedom to be anything they want to be. In other words, we have the freedom to accept the call that God makes to us individually to serve in whatever capacity He wants us to serve.

I know that I have rattled on -- but, does that answer your question?

God bless,

Beryl

[John317]

We have had all of this over and over again. Why can't it be accepted that we are no longer living in a Patriarchal Age. No longer do we travel by donkeys and camels. No longer do the men wear flowing robes. We may nit like what has happened to our culture, but it has happened, and we must live with it -- and work for the other people within that culture in ways that will reach the people -- and that means having both genders working together, in full harmony..

Beryl

This thread hasn't looked at all the Bible texts related to the subject of women in ministry, and that's what I am proposing to do here.

It's always important to examine most, if not all, of the texts that the Bible teaches about a subject, including women's role in the church. My object here is simply to find out what the Bible teaches about church officers, such as elders, overseers, and deacons, and to see what evidence there is for women being in those positions.

I don't believe the Bible evidence has been seriously and thoroughly looked at on this thread.

Men and women working harmoniously together does not necessarily mean that they must occupy the same roles or do the same things, either in the home or in the church.

I have no personal dislike for women being pastors or elders. I am simply interested in studying and discussing what the Bible says about it. It's a question of whether our church will eventually decide to do what the Bible teaches or whether it will conform to merely human ideas that MAY be contrary to God's will. Like I've said before, I haven't completely made up my mind about this issue, but what I do want is to be sure I understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. I don't want to simply support something because it's the popular thing to do or because society says to do it.

It seems to me that there is still a long ways to go before there's no more room for study and discussion of the Bible's view of the subject.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

which one is fundamental-eternal principal that should never change VS which one that is changable?

Hi, Delta. There are some things which do not change -- such as the 10 commandments, but there are some things which DO change -- such as our culture. Going back to the way women were treated, with no rights at all, to the time when they were, at last, given the right to vote -- that was a culture change.

Back in the time of the patriarchs women were "given" to a man as his wife -- even in situations such as Isaac, where his father's servant was entrusted to find a wife for Isaac. It was a matter of, "well, here is your wife" never met before, no say, except we know that in this case God obviously led in the selection.

Then we have the disgraceful story in Judges where this man was travelling with his concubine (or 2nd class wife) and was taken into a home (you can read the details in Judges 19) and the men of the town hammered on the door wanting the traveller to come out so that he could be raped. The man of the house refused, and the poor concubine was sent out to be used and abused all night by these men until she died. That was the status of women in that era. When Christ came He lifted the status of women. However, Jesus still worked within the bounds of the culture -- while still lifting their status.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, God gave it to both men and women. Spirit-filled women worked alongside the apostles proclaiming the good news of salvation.

I agree that God fills women equally with the Spirit to proclaim the gospel. Women may certainly work as evangelists and in personal ministries, etc. But it's important to notice that there is no instance in the NT church of women being elders or overseers or of organizing local churches. That is the crux of the issue here, not whether God fills women with His Spirit in order to convey the gospel. Priscilla taught Apollos the Bible but it was in company with her husband and she was not taking the position of authority of the elders.

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There was one instance which Paul spoke about, when some of the women were pushing the cultural boundaries a little too far, and Paul had to lay down a few rules for those in that situation.

In all due respect, I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of Paul's instructions. Paul himself said that his instructions applied to "all the church of the saints" (1 Cor. 14: 33b. See NIV; NRSV.) Also, Saint Paul wrote this to the Corinthian churches in about 55 AD, and then approximately ten years later Paul wrote the same thing in regard to the churches in Ephesus. Paul said, "I permit NO woman to teach or have authority over a man" (1 Tim. 2: 12). That included Phoebe and Priscilla, two women whom we may be certain were not causing any problems.

Also, it's important to point out that Paul himself offers an entirely different explanation for his giving his instructions. It seems to me the safest course to pay attention to Paul's self-declared reasons instead of giving reasons of our own. Paul refers to "the law" and to "the commandment of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14: 34, 37). In a parallel passage, written about 10 years later, Paul referred to creation and the Fall as reasons for his instructions. A close study of those verses and of how they are related to Paul's instructions would doubtless go a long way toward understanding why Paul said what he did.

Quote:

As the time came for the 1844 movement, God firstly chose a man to be His prophet (at that time women were still considered by the world as the "inferior beings"), but when the man refused, God chose a young woman who would take on the task for Him. This again was pushing the culture to the limit, but the culture was changing.

The same reasoning may be given for God's choosing Deborah as a prophetess over 3000 years ago. There apparently were few men available for that work in the time of the Judges. See Judges 4. The inspired record says that everyone was doing what was right in his own eyes instead of seeking to know what was right in the eyes of God.

Quote:

Women were eventually given the vote -- a massive culture change -- and in the Western world women were gradually given greater freedom within the changing culture of the day.

As Christians, God has given to ALL the task of taking His Gospel to all the world. As Christ worked within the culture of His day, so we are expected to do the same. As we come to the closing days of earth's history, we find in the Western World a culture that fully accepts women in absolutely any role. Yes, as in each culture there is the good side and the bad side, today women have the freedom to be anything they want to be. In other words, we have the freedom to accept the call that God makes to us individually to serve in whatever capacity He wants us to serve.

I know that I have rattled on -- but, does that answer your question?

God bless,

Beryl

I can agree with much you've said here, yet I think the relevancy of this in relationship to women's role in the church needs to be established, and I don't believe it has been, so far. For instance, I don't think we can assume that the oppression of women is necessarily connected to the way the NT church was organized. Nor do I think we can assume that God chose only men to be priests in the Old Testament because of some defect in the way ancient society viewed women. Can we assume that Jesus chose only men to be apostles because of fear of offending society? I find that hard to believe. Jesus certainly did not show a fear of offending society in other matters-- why, then, in the matter of women?

So, while I agree with much that you've said on this post, I disagree with your assumptions that these things mean men and women must share the same functions and positions in the the church.

It may be that a thorough examination and analysis of the Bible's teaching on the subject will eventually lead me to that conclusion, but I am not yet persuaded of it by the biblical evidence.

What text(s) in the Bible do you find that clearly anticipate the time when women and men would share equally in the leadership of the local churches? Would you say Acts 2 is one such text? If so, why? Are there other, perhaps more important, texts?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

It has already been amply discussed as to the reasons it would not have been wise for Jesus to have a woman as part of the 12 traveling with him. This does not make him afraid of anything..it means he did care about not only his reputation but that of his disciples and hence he was careful to not put that reputation at stake. These kinds of logical conclusions don't seem to be noticed.

Also, if a woman isn't suppose to teach, or speak in church, and you are going to literally apply that to mean she can't be a pastor in a church then you must certainly continue to take it literally and realize the she could also never be an evangelist or teacher in any setting in a church becuase it says she is not supposed to. That is why one must look at the whole picture not just one view.

There are many things the Bible isn't completely clear on, but we can deduce the answere through the rest of what the Bible teaches.

[Woody]

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I don't believe the Bible evidence has been seriously and thoroughly looked at on this thread.

I think this thread has looked at it very comprehensively. What I find is that some have ignored the Bible when it doesn't match with their personal agenda.

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I have no personal dislike for women being pastors or elders. I am simply interested in studying and discussing what the Bible says about it. It's a question of whether our church will eventually decide to do what the Bible teaches or whether it will conform to merely human ideas that MAY be contrary to God's will. Like I've said before, I haven't completely made up my mind about this issue, but what I do want is to be sure I understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. I don't want to simply support something because it's the popular thing to do or because society says to do it.

As always ... men will pick and choose what parts of the Bible they want to use. This church has studied the issue for nearly 150 years. And each year some people cry for MORE study when the Bible is very clear. The problem .... people resist what the Bible says in preference to the current political and societal pressures of CULTURE.