Women in Ministry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...I believe that the church in General Conference voted overwhelmingly against women's ordination, but a few individual conferences, such as Southeastern California conference, voted to go ahead with it anyway. That is my understanding of what has happened. I'm going to do more study both on the issue itself Scripturally and on what happened at the conference level.

Actually that is not exactly what happened - in either situation. The vote that took place in 1990 and 1995 were not "overwhelmingly against". Those votes would be more accurately described as deeply divided. And the 1995 vote demonstrated a growing support for women in ministry since a lower percentage voted against it then. And I think it bears pointing out that the vote to approve the female GC VP was by an overwhelming majority.

The facts:

http://adventistcommunicators.net/world_church/official_meetings/1995gcsession/070507ann.txt

"Utrecht, The Netherlands... Casting what is essentially a vote against

the ordination of women for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, delegates

to the 56th World Congress of the Seventh-day Adventist Church voted

not to allow world divisions of the Church to ordain individuals

without regard to gender.

Fewer than one-third of the delegates voted in favor of the request

from the North American Division of the Church which asked that

divisions, not the Church as a whole, be allowed to make the decision

on ordination. Of the 2,154 votes cast, 1,481 voted against the

request, 673 voted for...

In more recent times the first request for women's ordination came

from Finland in 1968. As recently as 1990 the Church in general

session defeated the proposal by a more than two-thirds majority..."

In 1990, "...the motion not to ordain women was endorsed by a lopsided vote of 1,173 to 377."

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

John317. All of this has been well quoted and discussed here. Do you have any NEW information. And what is the significance of this?

[John317]

I've heard that before I think. I will give you that she was seen as a prophet and probably didn't have time to pastor a church.

One thing that causes confusion is the fact that the term "ministry" has been used to refer to many different kinds of activities and functions. In the Bible, ministry is the same as service, and it can include anything from helping distribute money and food to the poor, to studying the Bible privately with people in their homes, or helping people in any number of ways. It has been used the same way, historically, in our church.

I don't think there's any evidence that the reason Ellen White did not become a pastor of a local church was due to a lack of time. To put it plainly and simply, God did not call Ellen White to do the work of a leader, such as pastor or elder, of a local church. She was called to the work of "messenger of the Lord," or a prophet, to speak for God to the church and the world. See 1 SM 32-35.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Taylor]

If I may say so, John, she was the biggest influencial leader of the SDA church. It matters not if she was the GC president or not. She had at least as much influence and even more than any GC president has ever had.

[Taylor]

She was called to be an evangelist, a writer, a campmeeting speaker, a revivalist etc. She preached FAR more than any pastor. To make her a pastor of a church would have severely limited her ministry. It would not have been a step up but a step down in her influence on people and the world church. She wasn't a pastor of a church, true, her ministry was at a global level...the world church.

[John317]

Do you know that the NT identifies by name a female disciple? And a female apostle?

And for that matter, do you know that Paul specifically speaks of female elders? And Paul identifies by name a female minister and church leader...

These are the kinds of statements that lead to confusion about what the Bible actually teaches on the subject.

Yes, Jesus had many women disciples, in the sense of followers. Today Jesus has many millions of female as well as male disciples.

But Jesus only had 13 apostles, and none of them were women. Paul was the 13th and Matthias was selected to take the place of Judas (Acts 1: 26).

There were no women elders in the NT church.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

If I may say so, John, she was the biggest influencial leader of the SDA church. It matters not if she was the GC president or not. She had at least as much influence and even more than any GC president has ever had.

No question there. Let's hope and pray that her influence will continue and grow ever greater. I have no disagreement at all with your two posts here.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[olger]

Pastor? Ellen White? What a silly proposal. Maybe we Americans have too much excess time.

She was a prophet after two men refused the call. simple. Stop trying to twist her memory to suit laodicean aspirations.

[John317]

Quote:

Do you know if the SDA church in General Conference has voted in favor of making women pastors of churches throughout the world conferences?

This is a good question. My "impression" of what was voted on was that they gave permission for the world church to decide on a conference by conference basis. Thereby saying that it was Ok, blessed it but also recognizing that some cultures were not ready for it. I could be wrong.

The GC in session voted against making women pastors on a conference by conference basis. This was requested by the North American Conference but it was denied.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

John317. All of this has been well quoted and discussed here. Do you have any NEW information. And what is the significance of this?

I'm attempting to nail the facts down on this issue, since as I go through the posts, I find so much misinformation and obfuscation.

Cases in point:

1) The idea that the New Testament at 1 Tim. 3 is most accurately translated to say that the bishop or overseer should be either a man or woman who has been married only once.

2) The idea that the NT speaks of a woman elder or that one of the apostles was a woman.

3) The idea that the GC in session has voted to make women elders and pastors.

4) The idea that the reason Ellen White did not serve as a church pastor was that she did not have the time.

5) The idea that "the vote that took place in 1990 and 1995 were not 'overwhelmingly against.'" (This despite the fact that the vote was 1, 173 to 377 in 1990, and 1,481 to 673 in 1995. If that isn't overwhelmingly against, I'd like to know what an "overwhelmingly against" vote looks like.)

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

Because there are more men spoken of in the Bible, might that have something to do with it? Look at the geneaology for instance, women are rarely mentioned.

Also, the devil knows who to attack; men in whom God could do a great work through.

... Insinuating that God can't work through women is not sustainable. It will not win you much support. For it is unBiblical.

Of course God can work through women. He works through women just as much as He works through men. That is not the question. The question is whether women are called by God, according to the Bible, to be pastors and elders of local churches. We can only find that out by studying the Bible about THAT issue.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

God intends for women to be ordained in the church as pastors?

WE can talk until we are blue in the face. The Biblical case for women pastors has been made and settled in this church. We now DO have women Pastors.

The fact that there are women pastors in the SDA church in some conferences does not mean that the SDA church has settled the case for women pastors. Women pastors and elders were put in place by the Annual Council and other church organizations, not by the GC in session.

Quote:

We as a church firmly and overwhelmingly have confirmed the role of women in leadership in the church. I was present for the vote at the General Conference in St. Louis.

Perhaps you are talking about the GC vote to have a female vice-president. That is not the same as a GC vote to make women elders and pastors of local churches. A vice-president does not rule or lead the local congregation. We've had women conference leaders before.

A vote of 1,173 to 377, then of 1, 481 to 673, opposing women as elders and pastors is not an overwhelming vote in favor of it.

Quote:

What we have now is a small minority who have chosen to not accept the will and decision of the church body.

The fact is that the vast majority of the world church, as represented by the GC in session, opposes making women elders and pastors of local churches. It appears that only the North American Division has voted in the GC in favor of it.

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Hi Red. Please know, the majority of the International Aventist church is opposed to women pastors. The NAD is all aflutter over it, but most of the world is unimpressed. California, Ohio, MD are some of the NAD hotbeds for WO.Best wishes,oG

This is what I am seeing also, although there are those who appear to try to put a different "spin" (Tom's word) on these matters to make it seem that the majority of SDAs approve of women pastors and only a minority oppose it.

It often makes it hard to get straight answers on this issue.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Yes Olger. I suspect you might be right that other countries are not as supportive. The issue IS a cultural one. And thus ... it is wise for the World Church to not impose things on other culturals. Letting each division or conference decide is wise.

It is often said that the issue is cultural, but those who oppose women being pastors and elders do not agree. The issue can only be settled theologically, not by appealing to cultural, political, social, or legal reasons.

It's clear to me that the NT church did not have women pastors or elders. On the basis of the overwhelming, consistent pattern of male leadership throughout both the OT and NT periods, it's difficult for me to see how our church can defend the view that women should be leaders of local congregations. The only way we could do this is if we believe that we have evidence in the Bible itself that women should one day be pastors and elders in the church. Some people have said they see this evidence in the Bible, but so far, they have not pointed it out.

Some have pointed to Acts 2, Joel 2: 28 and Gal. 3: 28 as verses that show God wants both men and women to serve as elders and pastors in the modern church. Yet those verses cannot properly be used in that way.

Acts 2 and Joel 2: 28 simply point to the time when God would pour out his Holy Spirit on both men and women and young and old. There is nothing in those verses to indicate that the Holy Spirit's being poured out would mean women should serve as elders and pastors. Besides, if Acts 2 is a fulfillment of Joel 2: 28, we could expect the NT church to make women elders and pastors, yet it did not do this. On the contrary, the NT church consistently made only men bishops, overseers, pastors and elders.

(Evidently there were women deacons in the NT church, but deacons serve as assistants to the pastors and elders. They did not teach or rule in the church as did pastors and elders. One qualification of the elders and overseers was that they be able to teach; no such qualification for deacons is given.)

Gal. 3: 28 simply refers to the fact that men and women are equal before God and have equal access to Him and to salvation. That is the context, as is easily seen by a comparison of verses 26, 27. So, verse 28 cannot be used as a reference to base a belief that women also ought to serve as elders and pastors in the same way men serve. To use it in that way would be to make it say something it does not say.

If anyone believes it does say this, I would be very interested in seeing the case made for it.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

obfuscation.

That is ALL I see on the Anti-WO side.

I have pretty much given up on any kind of meaningful conversation here. The subject is constantly changed. One moment wild statements are made about women pastors in the church. Then when the proof comes ... the subject is changed to "ordination".

So, I do find it impossible to hold a conversation for this reason. I will just let you rehash your old questions that have all been answered. I think most see what has been done to this "discussion".

For this reason ... I for one will just take a back seat until it is worth joining.

Have at it.

[Woody]

Quote:

Stop trying to twist her memory to suit laodicean aspirations.

Olger ... I don't often rise to the aid of John317 ... but I don't know why you directed this accusation at him. While I don't agree with him. I do not want to directly accuse him of twisting her memory to suit some aspirations.

I think we need to keep this discussion if you can call it that ... to the information and not make personal assumptions and attacks.

Stan wants us to self monitor as a group. Let's do it then.

[Woody]

Ok. I do have to be a truth detector.

When I see such statement as this below ... I have to ask you where you get such ideas. Please provide references for what you say and don't simply give the "ordination" excuse. You are being misleading in your statements. I would ask you to make truthful statements and back them up.

Explain and give references to the following please ...

Quote:

And the world church on two separate occasions said, ‘It is not biblical.'

Please provide proof of this statement. Like I have stated ... I have quotes from the President that state it was culture and not Biblical reasons.

Quote:

The GC in session voted against making women pastors on a conference by conference basis. This was requested by the North American Conference but it was denied.

Please provide proof. And explain why we have women pastors world wide in this church. The only action that I know of was on the issue of ordination which is totally different from the issue of women pastors.

Please explain your statements.

[Beryl]

Quote:

The only action that I know of was on the issue of ordination which is totally different from the issue of women pastors.

That is correct, Redwood.

Beryl

[olger]

Quote:

Stop trying to twist her memory to suit laodicean aspirations.

Olger ... I don't often rise to the aid of John317 ... but I don't know why you directed this accusation at him. While I don't agree with him. I do not want to directly accuse him of twisting her memory to suit some aspirations.

I think we need to keep this discussion if you can call it that ... to the information and not make personal assumptions and attacks.

Stan wants us to self monitor as a group. Let's do it then.

Dear hall monitor:

A very noble attempt by yourself to set me against John. Sorry it didn't work and ...

better luck next time.

OG

(Grandpa said that busy people have no time to be busybodies).

[Taylor]

Wow Olger, I don't think you can read anyone's motives. Redwood is busy, doing everything he can, considering his disability. He would love to be as busy as you are, in "real" work for pay out in the "real" world.

[olger]

Grandpa was right as rain.

How are ya Taylor?

[Taylor]

I am fine. Your grandpa's saying is right, and you can use it as a good principle and in generalities, but you can't judge whether a shoe will fit when you have never seen the feet you are trying to fit the shoe to.

[Woody]

Wow Olger, I don't think you can read anyone's motives. Redwood is busy, doing everything he can, considering his disability. He would love to be as busy as you are, in "real" work for pay out in the "real" world.

Thank you Taylor. I am busy right now. My wife had surgery on her knee today. I need to care for her and I am hardly able to move. Life goes on.

[Taylor]

Tell her we are praying for her. I hope she recuperates quickly!

[olger]

That must be hard work to `ave to straighten everybody out according to your standards, Taylor. I'm leveling my gaze directly at you as I say something that really needs to be said.

Have a good week,