EGW ... A Prophet ? WHEN ???

[Woody]

Let me paste a comment by John317 that inspired a question in my mind ....

Quote:

When it comes to the Shut Door, Ellen White never claimed that God showed her that the idea of the Shut Door as initially held by many Millerites was correct. On the contrary, it was dreams and visions that caused her to change her view of the Shut Door. She saw that she could not have been right about that.

Ellen White started having visions in 1844 and before. Yet at the time she believed in error ... (Shut door). So, was she a true prophet when she was having her first vision and still believing in the Shut Door? At what date was she a true prophet so we can apply the tests of a prophet to determine if she is true?

Does anyone have a date? We most certainly need one so we can know.

Quote:

"While in Exeter, Maine, in a meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others, many of them did not believe in a shut door… It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from his mediatorial throne and going to the holiest as Bridegroom to receive his kingdom…Most of them received the vision and were settled upon the shut door" letter to Joseph Bates, July 13, 1847

What should we think of this vision of hers?

[olger]

Ellen's sure on your mind a lot,[edited by Gail]...I mean Redwood. How's the weather?

oG

[Woody]

I know what is on YOUR mind .....

WOMEN

[olger]

Well I don't know what you mean pardner. My good wife is on my mind a lot and that's good .

[Edited by Gail]

your pal,

oG

[Woody]

Having your wife on your mind is Good Olger. But lets stick to the topic.

[Morning Glory]

Hey RW,

You are asking a pretty specific question here, my friend. I don't have a date for you, however, I believe that the answer is: YES, ELLEN HARMON-WHITE WAS A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD AT THE TIME OF THE AFORE MENTIONED VISION.

My reasoning is that God takes each of us where we are. At the time of her first visions Ellen White believed in: 1. Sunday keeping 2. that there was nothing wrong w/eating pork. For starters. So, of course there were things that she personally believed in that God spoke with her about, showed her, and changed her mind on over the years. There were topics on which she "evolved" if you will, developed a more mature opinion/ belief on as she grew in the Lord, and matured in years and wisdom. Much the same as happens to us in our Christian walk. We don't start out "mature", and neither did she.

As far as that shut door thing......well, I will have to do some reading to see what this little ole gal thinks. However, whatever those people thought at the time, it really shouldn't affect how we view Ellen White's ministry.

**Going to my library to find the book you mentioned...**

Morning Glory

[Woody]

Quote:

There were topics on which she "evolved" if you will, developed a more mature opinion/ belief on as she grew in the Lord, and matured in years and wisdom. Much the same as happens to us in our Christian walk. We don't start out "mature", and neither did she.

Very Good MG. I agree with you. I can see the evolution or progression of maturity in her writings. And I don't have a problem with that personally. Good points. Thank you.

[John317]

Let me paste a comment by John317 that inspired a question in my mind ....

Quote:

When it comes to the Shut Door, Ellen White never claimed that God showed her that the idea of the Shut Door as initially held by many Millerites was correct. On the contrary, it was dreams and visions that caused her to change her view of the Shut Door. She saw that she could not have been right about that.

In 1844 and before? What is your evidence for this?

She certainly never had any visions in 1843. According to Arthur L. White, in Ellen G. White, Messenger to the Remnant, p. 28, Mrs. White had her first vision in Dec. of 1844. She related this first vision in 1846 in an article entitled, "To the Little Remnant Scattered Abroad." It can be found in Early Writings, pp. 13-20.

Quote:

Yet at the time she believed in error ... (Shut door). So, was she a true prophet when she was having her first vision and still believing in the Shut Door? At what date was she a true prophet so we can apply the tests of a prophet to determine if she is true?

Does anyone have a date? We most certainly need one so we can know.

Ellen White began having visions in Dec. 1844, at which time she had just turned 17 years of age. She was only a girl, not even an adult yet.

Just because a person is a prophet and has visions does not mean that all of their beliefs are correct. The point, rather, is what did she receive in vision? She did not receive anything in the vision that supported the idea that "the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world." As Ellen White wrote in 1 SM 63, "It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position."

Quote:

"While in Exeter, Maine, in a meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others, many of them did not believe in a shut door… It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from his mediatorial throne and going to the holiest as Bridegroom to receive his kingdom…Most of them received the vision and were settled upon the shut door" letter to Joseph Bates, July 13, 1847

What should we think of this vision of hers?

What do you think?

[Woody]

1844 and before .... ???

I guess I will have to do some research and get back with you. I don't have any evidence on the tip of my tongue. I could be wrong with that. At this point I can just say that I will get back with you.

However .... I am not sure of the significance. I hope it is not a distraction.

[olger]

I believe that ellen White was called to express the messages of God to the Advent Movement. It is helpful to remember that hers was a confirming voice, often given after the brethren had hammered out truth on their knees before God's open word. As members of the Advent Movement, we agree as to the value of the Testimony of Jesus. Each of us are asked if we believe in this gift before baptism (among other things). I was, and hopefully you were too.

Best wishes,

oG

[Woody]

Quote:

Each of us are asked if we believe in this gift before baptism (among other things). I was, and hopefully you were too.

When I was baptized ... no one indicated that she was a prophet. They said she was an authority of which I figured there might be many.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is helpful to remember that hers was a confirming voice, often given after the brethren had hammered out truth on their knees before God's open word.

This was NOT the way SHE wanted to be used ...

"Significantly, Ellen White refused to let Butler and his colleagues use her writings to settle the theological/biblical issues dividing the denomination. She even went so far as to tell the delegates to the 1888 General Conference session on October 24 that it was providential that she had lost the one writing in which she had purportedly identified the law in Galatians. “God,” she asserted, “has a purpose in this. He wants us to go to the Bible and get the Scripture evidence.” In other words, she rejected the position of Butler and others that sought to use her writings as an inspired commentary on the Bible."

George Knight Visions and the Word

[olger]

Correct Redwood. If they were still arguing over theology, perhaps they hadn't yet hammered out the truth prayerfully.

That's the way I see it too.

oG

[John317]

Quote:

Each of us are asked if we believe in this gift before baptism (among other things). I was, and hopefully you were too.

When I was baptized ... no one indicated that she was a prophet. They said she was an authority of which I figured there might be many.

When did you first discover that she was a prophet?

When were you first introduced to her life and writings?

Did you have some good follow-up Bible studies after your baptism?

[olger]

Hi John. I remember my first encounter with EGW. I'll post it later.

[John317]

Quote:

It is helpful to remember that hers was a confirming voice, often given after the brethren had hammered out truth on their knees before God's open word.

If you read Special Testimony, Series B, No. 2, pp. 56, 57, you will see that this is exactly how Ellen White's prophetic gift was used during the Sabbath conferences of 1848, that is, as a confirming voice. Men would study the Bible and then Ellen White would be given a vision confirming what the men had concluded. This information is on pp. 38, 39 of Ellen G. White Messenger to the Remnant by Arthur L. White. That is how our doctrines were established. Ellen White was deeply involved and influential, but her influence was felt ONLY AFTER deep Bible study. Right from the beginning God made it plain that her gift was not given in order to take the place of the Bible.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Wonderful!

I don't remember my first because I grew up in a home where I literally knew about Ellen White before I did Donald Duck or Rin Tin Tin. I rebelled very much against the church and against God later in my teens until my early 40s, but before that, I had lots of great opportunities to know about Ellen White. At different times we lived (once in San Diego and then later in Loma Linda) within a few houses of two grand-daughters of Ellen White, who would tell stories of having grown up in Ellen White's home in Elmshaven. Also, both of my grandmothers had seen and heard Ellen White, and my mother's father had a personal interview with Mrs. White.

I read quite a lot of her writings while growing up, but by the time I reached 16, I was only interested in having a good time, and almost no interest in doing God's will. I used to make fun of friends at an Adventist school whenever I saw them reading Steps To Christ. So I know what it is to dislike her writings. I disliked them because they seemed to keep me from being free to do what I wanted, and they always seemed to make everything a sin. It seemed like their list of "sins" was a mile long and just wouldn't stop.

To make a long story short, I left Christ for a long, long time, and came back to Him completely only about 3 years ago, after studying both the Bible and the writings of Ellen White as a ministerial student at Loma Linda U.

Can't wait to read about your first encounter with Ellen White.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

That is how our doctrines were established.

I do not believe this is true in any fashion. I will study it and get back with you. But do take a look at the following from George Knight .......

Quote:

The middle decades of the twentieth century found Adventists more and more using Ellen White’s writings to both settle biblical issues and to do theology. Few would have openly admitted that they were putting Ellen White’s authority above that of the bible, but their writings and discussions indicated that all too many Adventists (if not most) were spending more time with Ellen White than with the Bible. She had for most of them become the final word on any biblical passage that she had utilized and a doctrinal authority. A word from Ellen White tended to end discussion. The official position of the denomination may not have changed but practice certainly had. By the 1960s the new practices had become firmly entrenched and it appeared to most Adventists that that is how their church had always utilized Ellen White’s authority.

Significantly, in 1981 Robert Olson, director of the Ellen G. White Estate, faced the problems inherent in the infallible commentary approach when he wrote that “to give an individual complete interpretive control over the bible would, in effect, elevate that person above the Bible. It would be a mistake to allow even the apostle Paul to exercise interpretive control over all other Bible writers. In such a case, Paul, and not the whole Bible, would be one’s final authority.”

[Woody]

Quote:

The interesting thing about Smith’s assertion is that any person willing to go back into early Seventh-day Adventist literature can either verify or disprove it. On the subject of the heavenly sanctuary Paul Gordon has done that and has verified Smith’s claims in his The Sanctuary, 1844, and the Pioneers. On a broader scale, extensive research by Merlin Burt, Rolf J. Pöhler, and George R. Knight has demonstrated that Adventism’s various doctrines were originated and fleshed out by several individuals, none of whom became Seventh-day Adventists. The Adventist contribution was in integrating the various doctrines they had accepted through Bible study into an apocalyptic theology. But even that was a contribution by Joseph Bates rather than Ellen White. Her early visions tended to be visions of confirmation of Bible study or related to building unity in matters of detail.

[Woody]

Quote:

Alonzo T. Jones, one of Ellen White’s reforming associates during the 1888 era. In his widely read week of prayer reading for 1894, titled “The Gifts: Their Presence and Object,” Jones pointed out that the Holy Spirit is the only interpreter of the Bible and that the Spirit’s “interpretation is infallible.” From that proposition he moved to the role of Ellen White’s testimonies, correctly using her statements that the purpose of her writings was not to provide new information, but to lead her readers to the Bible itself.

[John317]

Quote:

Alonzo T. Jones, one of Ellen White’s reforming associates during the 1888 era. In his widely read week of prayer reading for 1894, titled “The Gifts: Their Presence and Object,” Jones pointed out that the Holy Spirit is the only interpreter of the Bible and that the Spirit’s “interpretation is infallible.” From that proposition he moved to the role of Ellen White’s testimonies, correctly using her statements that the purpose of her writings was not to provide new information, but to lead her readers to the Bible itself.

I agree completely with the part that is underlined.

Now how do her writings lead her readers (us) to the Bible? Does this mean that if a person studies his Bible a lot, he won't need Ellen White? Not necessarily. Many go on studying the Bible year in and year out, decade after decade, and continue to believe in Sunday keeping, that the dead go immediately to heaven, in once saved always saved, and in the secret rapture-- even though the Bible doesn't teach those things. So it is often not enough just to study the Bible, because people tend to see in the Bible what they have been taught is true, i.e, tradition, rather than get out of the Bible what is actually there.

Ellen White was given to the Seventh-day Adventist church in order to help it fulfill the reason that God raised it up. The reason God raised it up was to give the Three Angels' Messages in order to help prepare the world for Christ's return. To do that, the church must have a clear view of why it exists. The individual members must have a clear view of why they are in the church. The problem today, as I see it, is that many in the SDA church either don't understand those messages or haven't accepted them, and some are even deeply opposed to them.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

That is how our doctrines were established.

I do not believe this is true in any fashion.

As I said, check out Ellen White's own words in Special Testimony, Series B, No. 2, pp. 56, 57.

Quote:

I will study it and get back with you. But do take a look at the following from George Knight .......

Quote:

The middle decades of the twentieth century found Adventists more and more using Ellen White’s writings to both settle biblical issues and to do theology. Few would have openly admitted that they were putting Ellen White’s authority above that of the bible, but their writings and discussions indicated that all too many Adventists (if not most) were spending more time with Ellen White than with the Bible. She had for most of them become the final word on any biblical passage that she had utilized and a doctrinal authority. A word from Ellen White tended to end discussion. The official position of the denomination may not have changed but practice certainly had. By the 1960s the new practices had become firmly entrenched and it appeared to most Adventists that that is how their church had always utilized Ellen White’s authority.

Significantly, in 1981 Robert Olson, director of the Ellen G. White Estate, faced the problems inherent in the infallible commentary approach when he wrote that “to give an individual complete interpretive control over the bible would, in effect, elevate that person above the Bible. It would be a mistake to allow even the apostle Paul to exercise interpretive control over all other Bible writers. In such a case, Paul, and not the whole Bible, would be one’s final authority.”

All good. None of that contradicts anything Ellen White says or what I have said.

By the way, I took courses in Ellen White by Robert Olson at PUC in 1974 just before he became the director of the Estate. Outstanding teacher.

[olger]

Ellen White? I had some serious questions about her when I learned of her. Serious questions. "Oh great. Just what we need, some woman claiming to have inspirations from God!" "Aren't there enough Joseph Smiths, Mary Baker Edy types already?" I wasn't impressed.

So what happened? I went to an Adventist Church and asked for a copy (any copy) of something she wrote. I was given a Great Controversy by the Pastor. I wanted to see what this lady was all about. She wouldn't fool me. Took it home...

Forgot about it for a week.

Remembered..

Put it by my bed..

Forgot about it again..

Picked it up one night..began to read.

Wow.

It wasn't what I expected at all.

It opened with Jesus standing on the Mount of Olives, weeping. First line.

It wasn't what I expected at all. I can't write like that, and I'm a writer. There's inspiration in this somewhere...

I kept reading...

Woke the wife up.. "Hey listen to this.." I read her a passage or two..

"Yeah, it's great. Go back to sleep."

Kept reading..

Writing is fascinating, John. I sense that maybe you like to write too. Everybody starts with the same 26 building blocks. It's just a question of how we stack & arrange those 26- blocks, isn't it? But there is something different in the way the Bible arranges those blocks The mortar between them is none other than the Holy Spirit. There's no way we could fake that, today.

What startled me in Ellen's writing was the recognition of the same mortar between the blocks. There was inspiration here. Not a replacement for the Bible. Never. Not an addendum, but a lesser light pointing us to the great light (The Scriptures).

A few quotes:

"We are accepted through Christ's merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merits of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures."

brother Gerry

[John317]

Ellen White? ...So what happened? I went to an Adventist Church and asked for a copy (any copy) of something she wrote. I was given a Great Controversy by the Pastor. I wanted to see what this lady was all about. She wouldn't fool me. Took it home...

Forgot about it for a week.

Remembered..

Put it by my bed..

Forgot about it again..

Picked it up one night..began to read.

Wow.

It wasn't what I expected at all.

It opened with Jesus standing on the Mount of Olives, weeping. First line.

It wasn't what I expected at all. I can't write like that, and I'm a writer. There's inspiration in this somewhere...

I kept reading...

Woke the wife up.. "Hey listen to this.." I read her a passage or two..

"Yeah, it's great. Go back to sleep."

Kept reading..

Writing is fascinating, John. I sense that maybe you like to write too. Everybody starts with the same 26 building blocks. It's just a question of how we stack & arrange those 26- blocks, isn't it? But there is something different in the way the Bible arranges those blocks The mortar between them is none other than the Holy Spirit. There's no way we could fake that, today.

What startled me in Ellen's writing was the recognition of the same mortar between the blocks. There was inspiration here. Not a replacement for the Bible. Never. Not an addendum, but a lesser light pointing us to the great light (The Scriptures).

A few quotes:

"We are accepted through Christ's merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merits of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures."

brother Gerry

That's beautiful. Great testimony, Gerry.

When I started re-reading Ellen White, The Great Controversy was the book that began the process. Picked up a copy in a book store in San Diego and couldn't put it down.

I have non-Christian friend who read parts of Desire of Ages, and did not even know anything about the writer, but his only remark to me about the book was that it seemed to him as if the writer was a witness of the events she was describing. I believe it.

Thanks again, Gerry.

[Woody]

Would you say that without Ellen White that people can not be saved?

OR

Would you say that they are on dangerous ground if they don't believe in Ellen White?

Or is it just harder to gain Salvation without Ellen White?