Is this normal for most of our churches??

[Liz]

I don't know if this goes here, or in the forum "Things we don't talk about" so if there is a better place for this please move it.

In my town we had a church, a nice church, and the members worked hard and paid it off completely. Then they had a "revival", about six (6) years ago, brought lots of people in, baptized them, started having two services every Sabbath, started talking about building a bigger church. The church split, on one side you had the people that wanted the bigger church like all the other Sunday keeping churches (basically the type of churches that they had come from), on the other side you had the people that wanted to start a new church so that we would have two churches.

In the end they opted for the huge church, that came with a huge debt. It took three (3) years to build this new church, in the meantime they sold off the paid off church building and the monies received only went for a down payment on this new building.

They over-worked their new baby members, and the new Christians were tired of waiting for the other church to be built. And some of them stopped being so emotional and hyped up after the "evangelist" left and realized they didn't want to be in this religion after all. So the majority of them left.

Now here we are three (3) years after the church has been built, with this huge debt. According to their summaries of the expenses we aren't even making our monthly utilities bill, never mind the mortgage. The cross section of our church family are elderly people on a fixed income, young families where the parents are still in college or going back to college, and single parents, then you have a couple of doctors, and the super poor.

They sent us two letters this past week, the first one was saying how returning tithe made you a better Christian, a better parent, a better everything; and how GOD blesses those who return their tithe (almost sounding like HE doesn't bless you if you don't--so you are in effect buying GOD's favors). The second letter said that we all needed to take this church debt personally and make it our responsibility to pay it off, then it offered some "helpful" hints on how to achieve this, some were: take a part time job, give your retirement fund, give your tax return, and any bonus you might receive at work.

Now it sounds like they want everyone to roll up their sleeves and get to work, except our pastor just got back from his second European vacation. Some families didn't take any vacation let alone two to Europe.

What I am wondering is, if we left this particular congregation is this what we will find in other congregations? Do the majority of our churches work this way? As an adult I have only been a member of this particular church, and I can't see myself staying there much longer. But they are telling me that ALL churches are like this--is that true?

Help need answers. And please don't be vague, spill the beans.

[Taylor]

No it isn't this way. Most churches would split and start a new church, at least in my conference. And our church, which is huge, had a lot of remodeling done recently and most of that is paid off. The pastors are great. So sorry you've had to go through this.

I am sure the European vacations are not paid for my members as the pastor's salary comes from the conference and the pastor of a small church gets paid the same as the pastor of a big church. Perhaps he got a cheap deal on tickets, has family in Europe, rich relatives who have paid for him to go or something. Of course I don't live there so I don't know but those are possibilities.

[Woody]

Quote:

They sent us two letters this past week, the first one was saying how returning tithe made you a better Christian, a better parent, a better everything; and how GOD blesses those who return their tithe (almost sounding like HE doesn't bless you if you don't--so you are in effect buying GOD's favors).

You were asking for the beans to be spilt ...? You asked the right person. I am always happy to spill the beans.

Quote:

What I am wondering is, if we left this particular congregation is this what we will find in other congregations?

Quote:

But they are telling me that ALL churches are like this--is that true?

I am not all that popular anyways as evidenced by the post from Delta. So ... the short answer is ....

YES

The long answer is ...

NO

I think that no matter where you go ... you will find spiritual abuse. And this is SPIRITUAL ABUSE. But will it always be in this form? NO. There are many forms of spiritual abuse. This is what happens when we look at people and churches ... we can always find both good and bad.

For the time being ... I really don't want to get started on the topic of TITHE. I will TRY to resist. But NO ... this threat that you have to pay tithe so you can be a better parent etc etc and for God to be able to bless you .... etc etc. it is just spiritual abuse. Ignore it to the best of your ability. Forced works are not of any value. Do as the Lord leads your heart. You will then be blessed. The blessing is in our following God ... not the paying of tithe or not paying tithe.

I've paid tithe all of my waking life. What has it done for me? Hey .... I'm disabled. What tithe paying does is it honors God. It does not honor us. We are no better for doing it ... only God is glorified. Do "I" look glorified to you? NO.

Don't pay tithe unless it is something that you feel you HAVE to do because you WANT to do it. Forced obedience springs the heart of a rebel. Those are not my words. I borrowed them.

Have you ever felt "wanted"? I think this church NEEDS YOU. But if you are not up to such a challenge ... then by all means ... go and find yourself a more loving a loveable God filled church. We are not all meant to be missionaries at all points in our life. You have to do what you feel you need to do. IF this church is not for you .... LEAVE.

[carolaa]

In my town we had a church, a nice church, and the members worked hard and paid it off completely. Then they had a "revival", about six (6) years ago,

In the end they opted for the huge church, that came with a huge debt. It took three (3) years to build this new church, in the meantime they sold off the paid off church building and the monies received only went for a down payment on this new building.

They over-worked their new baby members,

According to their summaries of the expenses

They sent us two letters this past week,

But they are telling me that ALL churches are like this

Not all churches are like this. Sadly, many are, but certainly not all. And none are perfect. I'm really curious who is this "they" you referred to several times (I highlighted them in red). This "they" seems to have an awful lot of power, but you didn't really say who "they" are.

[Woody]

Good Point Carolaa.

It would be far better if it was 'we'. I have been with many churches where 'we' did things that I did not approve of. But I still said it was 'we' that did it.

The only way to improve the way a church works is to change it from 'they' to 'we'.

You are still able to disagree with what 'we' did. But being part of 'we' is needed.

[Taylor]

Agreed...if people viewed the success and struggles and problems of their church as "our church" and "What can we do" I think it would empower many and enliven churches. (Not saying that anyone on here does not take ownership. Just agreeing with this concept.)

[Dr. Shane]

I would say this situation is far from normal. In fact, it sounds like a group is now ready to split off and start their own congregation which will not be in debt at all.

In my experience, the Conference has a big say in whether or not a church builds bigger or splits. Churches that build bigger often borrow the money from the Conference. I have never been involved with a church that borrowed money from an outside source like a bank. If the Conference in this situation encouraged them to build and then financed the construction, it sounds like the conference needs to get some evangelists and Bible workers into the area.

If the money is borrowed from an outside source, I wonder who's name is on the note. If it is the local church, what happens if they disband, close and file bankruptcy? I find it hard to believe the Conference would have borrowed money from an outside source.

[Liz]

This is why I say "they". The conference president wanted a bigger church, our pastor at that time and "we" the congregation said no we needed to grow a little. The conference president and the head elder "moved our pastor on", the next one was all for a bigger church (big shock), "we" the congregation said we want to grow a little bit more before we built a bigger church--remember our church was paid for. The conference president said we were small thinkers and brought in a "fire and brimstone evangelist". This is where we get our first wave of new people, baby Christians, that want a church just like the one they left. Then the New Pastor(#2) started buzzing in people's ears that we needed a bigger church. "We" the congregation still said no, that we needed to split the church and have two churches in our town. The conference president was not happy with how slow things were going, so he moved the New Pastor(#2) into the conference work force, and they hired a third Pastor, that of course, was on board with building a bigger church and not splitting. The third Pastor didn't last long maybe 6 to 8 months, then Pastor number four showed up. The conference president and the Pastor number 4 brought back the "fire and brimstone evangelist" this is where we get our second wave of new baby Christians that all want a church like they just left.

So now "we" the congregation are voting on building a bigger church, the first four time, yes four, the congregation said no, we need to split and have two churches. Then the board started getting tricky in my opinion, they started holding the voting times during the middle of the day when many of the "no" people worked, they also held votes and "forgot" to inform everyone. One week we showed up to church to find that lo and behold that building a bigger church was passed. That week the conference president came and gave the sermon on how proud he was of "us" deciding to move forward with the plans.

Now if you are wondering if indeed the conference president was behind this. He kept coming and giving "pep talk" sermons throughout each of these pastors' "reign", he even said that he was behind getting our "fire and brimstone evangelist" twice.

So now the majority of the congregation are the ones from the very beginning that had worked hard paying off the former church, and really wanted two churches instead of one big one. The baby Christians as I stated in my first post, have pretty much fallen away, or are going back to their former churches.

The "they" are the conference president, the pastor, the head elder, the church board, and one, count them one super rich family. The rich family, for an undisclosed amount of money, got to put their name up over the door in giant gold letters, as in, this is the BLANK BLANK BLANK Fellowship Hall. It was put in "contract" that this family was supposed to keep "filling the till" so to speak. Well, after the name went up, someone got their nose out of joint and the funding stopped. Pastor number 4 does want to take the name down, in the hopes that the congregation will come together again, for the greater good. However the conference president won't allow it, because he hopes that this family will come around and start paying again.

You know just typing all of this out. I realized I don't feel like a part of this congregation. I don't feel wanted. I feel like "they" want to do what "they" want and "they" want me to pay for it. If it was just a bad decision, I could live with that, and move on. But I feel like "they" deliberately put us in this mess, "they" are wanting us to pay for it and "they" don't care how. As evidenced by their "helpful" suggestions.

Plain and simple we can't afford that church. To even try is like throwing good money after bad. "They" need to face facts and sell it and hopefully be able to downsize. But "they" won't even listen to this possibility. "We" get lectures on how we aren't stepping out on faith.

Wow, if you made it this far, and are still with me, you deserve a medal. If you reached this point and are comatose here ya go.

It has really helped just getting all of this off my chest. Thank you all for listening and the advice, and for letting me know it isn't like this everywhere. In my home, we are still discussing what we should do; I believe we should meet with like-minded Christians, but I am not sure I am "like-minded" with this local congregation.

Thank you all for being so candid, that is what I need.

[Taylor]

Sounds like you have a lot of pain in your heart. I hope you will find this a safe place to unload if you need to. I admire that you haven't smeared people's names or locations. That is very commendible. At the same time, you needed to talk and that is good you felt you could here.

[olger]

yes'm

[Woody]

Oh Liz. My Heart just goes out to you. I spoke too soon. I have to amend what I said. In your case ... I think that you are the 'we' and the 'we' got hijacked. And you are right. The 'they' are now in control. I am so sorry.

You are in my prayers. I feel for you. I have not experienced anything like you have described. I have experienced the strong arm of the conference. They are just fallible humans. We can forgive but then we still have to suffer the consequences.

Are there any likeminded people that you can work with their in your church. Are there those who need your help and will accept it. That church does need help. Having someone with a level mind ... can only help.

But in the end ... you have to decide what is best for you. God be with you and your decision.

[Taylor]

Redwood don't be too hard on yourself. I didn't see your comment as a jab at Liz but maybe an encouragemnet of what can she do to be a part of fixing what appears to be a huge problem. It sounds like she is a person who analyzes well and if that be the case, she just might be instrumental in turning that situation around. But then again, Liz, if you are too tired that is ok too. We all have limits, it's part of being human. At times we all have to go and recharge our batteries, step back and analyze, and seek for spiritual nourishment in a variety of places.

[there buster]

Of the numerous churches I have had experience with, I would say that your experience is pretty common.

I could tell 4 or 5 stories quite similar to yours.

Still, I am a faithful son of the SDA church. I realize its flaws, but I'm not leaving it. I fight with my wife sometimes, but I'm not leaving her either (as an aside, our 39th anniversary was last Sabbath).

The local congregation, even the local conference, is not the church. The church is a much larger, more spiritual entity.

The church visible will always appear 'weak and defective,' because it is filled with sinful people. But it will remain 'the object of Christ's supreme regard.'

Our former congregation was sicker than the one you describe. God led us-- and I mean, against our preferences-- to plant a new congregation, where the burned out, the bypassed, and bummed can come and experience an encounter with God.

Many, many of our congregations in NA are desperately sick, even as they think themselves successful. But then, that's what the Faithful and True witness warned us about.

[carolaa]

Thanks for clarifying your situation. Yes, I read it all with great interest. It sounds like a very political situation, as I suspected, with certain powerful people working to get their way. I was very curious if "they" meant the church board or the conference, or who it meant. At any rate, it definitely sounded like you did not feel like you were part of the process.

I'm not sure which conference you're in (Texas includes 3 conferences), and it really doesn't matter, but I would say that I have noticed politics are worse in Texas than in other places I've been. Certainly, it's not that bad in every church, by any means, but some of the churches really have their M.O. down pat. I'm actually impressed your church was able to hang tough for as long as they did. I have seen those very types of behaviors here, including the secret meetings and being accused of lack of faith when they are confusing faith with presumption/stupidity. One church I was in had a big, unfriendly split (before I arrived) over selling a church building that was paid for. It can be extremely frustrating. I'm guessing the main core of your congregation was correct, that it would be better to split amicably than to build a church you can't afford.

I'm still wondering, though, how such a vote could have passed without a significant number of people knowing about it. That kind of action must be voted by the entire church in business session, and I believe it's according to the church manual that business meetings must be announced at least 1 week in advance. That is, with a public announcement, such as from the pulpit or in the bulletin, etc. Normally, they will include in the announcement what the major agenda items are to be. Of course, the end result would probably have been the same, because these people tend to recruit non-active, non-attending members out of the woodwork like vermin to make sure the vote goes their way. But nevertheless there is no excuse for you finding out after the fact.

I'm also very curious why most of the new members left. That seems very odd to me. Usually, when members get involved in ministries, they tend to stay - because they feel a sense of belonging and contribution, plus they make new friends within the church sooner. So I have to wonder if there was any ministry going on, or just a bunch of politics.

Others may have a different opinion, but personally, I feel that those who were left out of the decision making process should not feel the slightest obligation to enable the dysfunction by continuing to support it. I would definitely be looking for another church where I might feel more included. I would shake the dust off my feet, so to speak, and never look back. But stay or go, you should by no means feel you need to buckle under to their heavy handed methods of fundraising.

Asking people to dip into their retirements is NOT faith, and I seriously question the ethics of doing that. I would almost be willing to bet money that our denomination does not condone doing that. I wonder if it is even legal; they could be opening up the entire denomination for a big lawsuit. It's one thing for a person to choose on their own to do that; but it's quite another for an organization to suggest/encourage/pressure a member to do such a thing. I am dumbfounded that they even put that in writing, it is so incriminating.

I'm going to quit now before I *really* get worked up!

[Dr. Shane]

I suspect the Conference loaned the money to the local church and it is the Conference that may end up having to sell the church at a loss.

[Liz]

Ya'll will have to forgive me I can't figure out how to do the "quotey" things, so I am just going to have to lump everything together.

First off, yes, I am in a lot of pain over this, I can actually see how each side thinks they are doing the right thing, but how it affects me on a personal level makes me feel so un-Christlike and I hate that. So please pray for wisdom for my family as we continue to pray for guidance. I still have two kidlets that I am raising to be citizens of HIS Kingdom and this situation sure doesn't help.

Next, I have agreed with everything ya'll have said. I felt no personal jabs, so there is no need for anyone to apologize over anything they have said. Since this is such a hard medium to get your thoughts across, there is no inflection of your wording, no tone of voice to go by, etc. I always read everything as if it was meant in the best possible light.

Also, ya'll have really helped me in more ways than one. Like I said, this is the only church I have been in since I became an adult--and took an interest in such things. So I really wanted to know if this situation was unusual or the norm. Thank you for helping me see the light, no place is perfect, we are still "here" after all.

As I said, it has really helped me to write all of this out. I may need to do it again in the future. I do tend to get a little wordy, my mom always said that I could never work for Reader's Digest lol.

Thank you everyone.

[Taylor]

Liz, you seem like a really neat person. I am glad you have joined us on CA! I loved what you said about reading everything as if it was meant in the best possible light...wow! If only the whole world were like that, it would be a better place.

Keep your chin up. God does have solutions and he cares about your feelings, your family, and your needs.

[Woody]

Liz ... It is US who are the blessed to have you. Most of us here like to be wordy at some points. You did a fine job once you felt at ease enough to BE wordy. Not having ALL the info can cause some of us to go off from where we should be.

Anyway ... Like I say, WE are blessed to have you here. Please post when ever you can.

In the mean time ... We are PRAYING and Crying.