Tithe, what say you?

[Liz]

Alright, here I go again, ready? My question is on tithe. Do you have to pay tithe to your local church? Now I am all for tithe, so no need to convince me on that particular point, but it is my understanding that tithe is to go for the finishing of God's work. So here is where I get a little muddled and need help, we pay tithe--it goes to the conference--and our pastors get paid, so then our tithe pays for our pastor? Do I have that right?

So then back to my question, do we have to pay our tithe to the local church? Is it "alright" to find an organization that has an outstanding outreach ministry and give our tithe to them instead? Say for instance, "Native New Day", (now I am just using them as a for instance in this case).

What are your opinions on this matter?

Oh, and if ya'll have already discussed this type of question, please point me in the right direction for the thread. I used the little search feature here and it didn't bring up anything.

Have a great Preparation Day, and a Terrific Sabbath. :)

[Woody]

Liz ... Here are a few thoughts from Ellen White ...

Quote:

This first one is published in a number of places but it is under Manuscript 43a March 22 1898 "The Laborer is Worthy of His Hire" She rebuked the situation of financial injustice to those ministers wives who worked in a full time basis without being paid "because their husbands received wages.""Although the hands of ordination have not been laid upon her she is accomplishing a work that is in line of ministry" "The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives is a plan not after the Lords' order.""The Lord does not favor this plan.""As the devoted ministers and his wife engage in the work, they should be paid the wages of two distinct workers.""SDAs are not in anyway to belittle women's work""Looked upon as the work of ordained ministers would not such workers be defrauded if they were not paid""The Lord has settled it""Women are essential to carry truth to families""Just as needed as men.""There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry".

And from Ellen White's Letter to G.A. Irwin April 21, 1898 ...

"I feel it is my duty to create a fund from my tithe to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers"

Letter 1906 Ellen White ...

"If any person shall say to me Sister White will you appropriate my tithe. I shall say "yes". Many have "lost confidence" in the appropriation of tithe."

Then later ... A GC committee concluded .... "Individuals have the right to pay their tithes direct to needy fields" P.2 of the Memorandum of Plans Agreed Upon In Dealing with "The Blue Book"

[Liz]

Redwood, Thank you, and where do you find these letters by E.W.? Are they all in a book, or several books, or what?

[Gerr]

You have "have to" in bold letters. I pay/return my tithe as an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty over my possessions, just as I acknowledge His sovereignty over time by keeping the day He set aside. If I am paying/returning tithe merely as a "have to" obligation, then I think I am missing the point. Do I "have to" pay it to the local church? I pay the bulk of tithe to my local church because it needs my support. I send some somewhere else to support the work where the organization does not have the money to support a worker. When I was in Southeastern Calif Conf and they ignored what the Church in session decided (women pastors), I got so angry that for awhile I was sending all my tithe to the GC. (I am not against women pastors per se, it was the SEC's deliberate disregard of what the Church as a body voted on.}

Gerry

[Woody]

I am not aware of the church voting against women being Pastors. Since my wife IS an SDA woman pastor ... I would be interested to know about this vote.

[Woody]

Redwood, Thank you, and where do you find these letters by E.W.? Are they all in a book, or several books, or what?

Yes Liz. I personally went to the archives of the James White Library at Andrews University and saw the original documents. You have to go into a small guarded room and are not allowed to take any of the books away from that room. I forget what it was called. But I did see and read from the originals.

You can see the cites of the original documents that I got it from.

[Liz]

You have "have to" in bold letters. I pay/return my tithe as an acknowledgment of God's sovereignty over my possessions, just as I acknowledge His sovereignty over time by keeping the day He set aside. If I am paying/returning tithe merely as a "have to" obligation, then I think I am missing the point. Do I "have to" pay it to the local church? I pay the bulk of tithe to my local church because it needs my support. I send some somewhere else to support the work where the organization does not have the money to support a worker. When I was in Southeastern Calif Conf and they ignored what the Church in session decided (women pastors), I got so angry that for awhile I was sending all my tithe to the GC. (I am not against women pastors per se, it was the SEC's deliberate disregard of what the Church as a body voted on.}

Gerry

I put the "have to's" in bold because, I was asking if that is where I "had to" send my tithe. I am not missing the point of tithe, I gladly give it back. I was just asking if I "had to" send it to a "particular" place.

Redwood, I think I will just use you as my resource for EGW stuff, since I can never seem to find what I am looking for when I need it. Thank you so much.

[Stan]

So how do other ministries, who want to make a difference, get funding?

Esp if they feel called to do things, good things, the world Church does not have the time for?

http://thatotherangelministries.org/

Ideas?

[Woody]

Quote:

Redwood, I think I will just use you as my resource for EGW stuff, since I can never seem to find what I am looking for when I need it. Thank you so much.

Oh NO !!! l.o.l. ... You will receive a lot of criticism for THAT idea !! I am not the most popular EGW quoter here. Some would oppose my vast knowledge on the subject ... having studied her for all of my 50 years. One thing that gets me in trouble is that I usually do not provide much commentary. I just quote her and leave the interpretation as to what she meant and how to apply it ... UP TO YOU.

If you can handle that ... then you might not mind me so much. But it does irritate some others.

[carolaa]

I am not aware of the church voting against women being Pastors. Since my wife IS an SDA woman pastor ... I would be interested to know about this vote.

I believe SE Cal was trying to "ordain" women pastors.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Redwood, I think I will just use you as my resource for EGW stuff, since I can never seem to find what I am looking for when I need it. Thank you so much.

Oh NO !!! l.o.l. ... You will receive a lot of criticism for THAT idea !! I am not the most popular EGW quoter here. Some would oppose my vast knowledge on the subject ... having studied her for all of my 50 years.

Why, I would second that! Why the man is a proverbial commpendium of EGW quotes on anything that is against the Adventist myth....why, just look at all those quotes that he has put out and confused a lot of people...and made them dig deeper for what she had to say...And I suppport this guy...Anything to make a brother dig....into the writings of THE WORD [aka EGW]!

[Hey, Red...am I getting you in trouble yet???]

[Woody]

You're a great help Neil. My reputation had just skyrocketed and then look what YOU did to it. Those who enjoy Adventist myth will not longer have such a good opinion of me.

[Neil D]

You're a great help Neil. My reputation had just skyrocketed and then look what YOU did to it. Those who enjoy Adventist myth will not longer have such a good opinion of me.

Hey, don't mention it...Anything to help a brother...

[Liz]

So how do other ministries, who want to make a difference, get funding?

Esp if they feel called to do things, good things, the world Church does not have the time for?

http://thatotherangelministries.org/

Ideas?

LOL, are you asking for my tithe? Liz is grinning

Redwood and Neil you guys are a hoot.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Then later ... A GC committee concluded .... "Individuals have the right to pay their tithes direct to needy fields" P.2 of the Memorandum of Plans Agreed Upon In Dealing with "The Blue Book"

When and where did this happen? What is the reference for it?

Since our pastors are paid from the tithe, I think we owe at least part of it to the local conference. I favor a 20% giving plan and believe most in the middle class should be able to get to that point over the course of a few years if they make it a goal. 20% would allow the believer to pay 10% tithe and 10% offerings. Those in the poor class may only be able to pay the 10% tithe and those are the ones that, perhaps, may be justified in sending their tithe to another ministry or even using it to pay for church school tuition.

[Liz]

Quote:

Then later ... A GC committee concluded .... "Individuals have the right to pay their tithes direct to needy fields" P.2 of the Memorandum of Plans Agreed Upon In Dealing with "The Blue Book"

When and where did this happen? What is the reference for it?

Since our pastors are paid from the tithe, I think we owe at least part of it to the local conference. I favor a 20% giving plan and believe most in the middle class should be able to get to that point over the course of a few years if they make it a goal. 20% would allow the believer to pay 10% tithe and 10% offerings. Those in the poor class may only be able to pay the 10% tithe and those are the ones that, perhaps, may be justified in sending their tithe to another ministry or even using it to pay for church school tuition.

What is middle class, or what do you consider middle class? I have heard the 10/10 split before, in fact, I grew up with this theory. I just never heard the part about the middle class and the poor. If you could tell me who that might include, like how much yearly income to be considered which class, that would help me a lot.

Then you bring up another interesting point. Using tithe to pay for "Church School Tuition", since there is no Adventist church school any where near us, we homeschool, would you then say it was alright for us to use our tithe money on our school books?

[Woody]

Quote:

Then later ... A GC committee concluded .... "Individuals have the right to pay their tithes direct to needy fields" P.2 of the Memorandum of Plans Agreed Upon In Dealing with "The Blue Book"

When and where did this happen? What is the reference for it?

You just quoted the reference Shane. P.2 of the "Memorandum of Plans Agreed upon in dealing with "The Blue Book". I don't happen to have with me the date of the GC committee . But you can look it up in the reference.

[Woody]

Quote:

"When I was in Southeastern Calif Conf and they ignored what the Church in session decided (women pastors)."

I am not aware of any decision against women being pastors. But I am aware of Ellen White supporting the idea ....

Quote:

" The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God." 6T 322

[Dr. Shane]

The middle class is actually defined by the government. It changes every year and depends upon the number of people in the household. If I were to venture to guess, I would say right now in the US for a family of four, the middle class would range in income from $40,000 - $100,000/year. The poverty level is about $20,000/year for a family of four.

Quote:

would you then say it was alright for us to use our tithe money on our school books?

I think these are really issues the believer needs to resolve between themselves and God. If they are in the middle class, I would really encourage them to pay their tithe to the church to support their conference which pays the pastors.

[Liz]

Quote:

would you then say it was alright for us to use our tithe money on our school books?

I think these are really issues the believer needs to resolve between themselves and God.

Yes, I also, believe it is between the believer and God. But since, you said it I was wondering what you thought . I am placing the emphasis on "your thoughts" in this situation, not that I am going to start doing it or anything, just what are your thoughts on this situation.

[Woody]

Liz ... Since you asked ... a few more Ellen White thoughts on Tithe paying and the church.

"The Lord has not specified any regular channel through which means should pass." {SpM 498}

"Some cases have been kept before me for years, and I have supplied their needs from the tithe, as God has instructed me to do. And if any person shall say to me, Sister White, will you appropriate my tithe where you know it is most needed, I shall say, Yes, I will; and I have done so. I commend those sisters who have placed their tithe where it is most needed to help to do a work that is being left undone." {2MR 100.1}

" the Lord has made us Individually his stewards . We Each hold a solemn responsibility to invest this means Ourselves. A portion it is right to place in the treasury to advance the general interests of the work; but the steward of means will not be guiltless before God, unless, so far as he is able to do this, he shall use that means as circumstances shall reveal the necessity. We should be ready to help the suffering, and to set in operation plans to advance the truth in various ways. It is not in the province of the Conference or Any Other Organization to relieve us of this stewardship . If you lack wisdom, go to God; ask him for yourself, then work with an eye single to his glory." {PH146 45.1}

"God does not lay upon you the burden of asking the Conference or any council of men whether you shall use your means as you see fit to advance the work of God in destitute towns and cities, and impoverished localities. If the right plan had been followed, so much means would not have been used in some localities, and so little in other places where the banner of truth has not been raised. We are Not to Merge Our Individuality of Judgment Into Any Institution IN OUR WORLD. We are to look to God for wisdom, as did Daniel." {PH146 45.3}

"Do not worry lest some means shall go direct to those who are trying to do missionary work in a quiet and effective way. All the means is not to be handled by one agency or organization. There is much business to be done conscientiously for the cause of God. " {SpM 421.7}

"To Be Paid From the Tithe.--The tithe should go to those who labor in word and doctrine, be they men or women."--Manuscript 149, 1899. {Ev 492.2}

Well ... we could follow the example of the early Seventh day Adventist Church and the way they required tithe paying.

The tithe was for only members from the ages of 18 to 60 and it was 5 to 20 cents for men and from 2 to 10 cents for women "according to the ability of the donor". And for those who owned property it was 1 to 5 cents for every $100 of its value.

It appeared the GC was concerned with age and ability to pay tithe. It wasn't until 1879 that the actual ten percent policy was adopted by the GC.

[Liz]

[quote=Redwood

" the Lord has made us Individually his stewards . We Each hold a solemn responsibility to invest this means Ourselves.

[Woody]

Liz ... All of this depends upon your view of Christianity. If you believe that the SDA church is the ONLY representitive of the Body of Christ ... then you might want to follow what is said from the pulpit and think that there is only one place to give your tithe.

But if you have a broader view of the Body of Christ ... then you should be free to give you tithe to ANY organization that is doing the Lords work.

I leave it to you ....

These are just a few thoughts of mine. Personally I give all mine to the SDA church organization as preached from the pulpit. But I do not want to impose that on anyone else.

As far as the more local issue of why the Pastors don't preach it for the SDA consumption ... I think it is easy to see ... just follow the money. They want to control the purse strings. And as far as a big organization ... I am not sure I blame them.

I personally want to support the organization that is most close to what the Bible teaches. I know there are good organizations that I should also support ... but you can only do as EGW says and follow what God leads you to do.

[Dr. Shane]

I think a person can believe that the Adventist church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy and still pay their tithe to another place other than the local conference. However if we do believe the Adventist church is the remnant, I would think we would want to pay our tithe to an Adventist ministry. I have known some that pay their tithe to the local church budget. My mother used her tithe to pay our church school tuition - but we were devastatingly poor.

I think it important that we support the ministry of our pastors. That means paying our tithe to the conference. The only exception, for me, would be for the poor that may pay their tithe to the local church budget, church school or some other Adventist ministry.

[carolaa]

Well ... we could follow the example of the early Seventh day Adventist Church and the way they required tithe paying.

The tithe was for only members from the ages of 18 to 60 and it was 5 to 20 cents for men and from 2 to 10 cents for women "according to the ability of the donor". And for those who owned property it was 1 to 5 cents for every $100 of its value.

It appeared the GC was concerned with age and ability to pay tithe. It wasn't until 1879 that the actual ten percent policy was adopted by the GC.

Were these the practices before we had an actual "storehouse"? And I thought the idea of a tenth came from the Bible - why would the GC have to adopt a policy about it?