My Son.

[Woody]

My son leaves today after being here for 6 days. It has been So good to visit with him.

He was raised all of his non-Adult life in the SDA church. For whatever reason ... he did not go down that path. But he remains one of the best Christians I know. I would use the word loving ... but that is not being a male man. And I don't want this thread hijacked.

Anyway ... I am so proud of my son. He likes to share with me things that are meaningful to HIM. I have the choice ... I can share and learn of HIS interests ... OR I could try to sneak in one more sermon to my 21 year old son. What do you think I did ???

He loves to talk about his job. Now ... I can show interest in his work or I could preach on the need to keep the Sabbath Holy as he talks about tackling a criminal during the Sabbath hours.

When he shares of HIS interest in wines and what he has learned ... I can try to learn what he has learned and show interest or I can tell him what he already knows ... that I don't approve of drinking wine.

He shared with me his new taste for shirmp. I could be interested and ask about what he likes about it and the particular taste ... OR I could get in one more sermon of disapproval regarding unclean foods. Hey ... I am sure my wife has a good sermon on that topic that I could borrow.

When he is excited about a movie and wants me to watch it .... I could tell him that I don't like to watch 'R' rated movies which he already knows ... OR ... I could explain why I don't watch them but agree to just turn my head when it gets to parts that I am not comfortable with. I am not going to make a habit of watching 'R' rated movies. But I think I can accommodate my son.

My son is living with a very nice Christian woman. He knows I am opposed to this even though I haven't specifically said it about this situation. I can either show interest in his girlfriend and ask questions about her and compliment her ..... OR ...... I can tell him how disappointed I am that he is living "in sin".

I could show interest in where he lives and the beautiful nature that surrounds him ... OR I can complain that he lives in an illegal state ... THE STATE OF JEFFERSON.

The examples above are just a few. But I think you get the point of where I am coming from. Many could learn a lot from my son. His Christian life even though he may not attend the correct Christian church ... is an example to all of us. I will not go into all the details ... that might be seen as bragging. I will just stick with his "sins". But I will say .... I am one proud Dad.

[bonnie]

(quote)Anyway ... I am so proud of my son. He likes to share with me things that are meaningful to HIM. I have the choice ... I can share and learn of HIS interests ... OR I could try to sneak in one more sermon to my 21 year old son. What do you think I did ???(quote)

Why is it necessary fot it to have sneak in a sermon as the only other alternative?

(quote)He loves to talk about his job. Now ... I can show interest in his work or I could preach on the need to keep the Sabbath Holy as he talks about tackling a criminal during the Sabbath hours.(quote)

Many SDA's are police officers.

(quote)When he is excited about a movie and wants me to watch it .... I could tell him that I don't like to watch 'R' rated movies which he already knows ... OR ... I could explain why I don't watch them but agree to just turn my head when it gets to parts that I am not comfortable with. I am not going to make a habit of watching 'R' rated movies. But I think I can accommodate my son(quote).

Why would he invite you to watch that which he knows you are oppossed to? If it is a matter of bringing it to your home why would you when he knows that is not something you agree with or condone.

At least for our four we found 21 long past the age of delivering

sermons. If it was something we could not condone or accept in our home they would not do so. At age 21 if they have their own home they have the privilege of setting their own ground rules and if different than ours they still would be treated as all our sons. We would respect their choices without sermons and they would need to accept ours without resentment.

[Denise]

Quote:

At least for our four we found 21 long past the age of delivering

sermons. If it was something we could not condone or accept in our home they would not do so. At age 21 if they have their own home they have the privilege of setting their own ground rules and if different than ours they still would be treated as all our sons. We would respect their choices without sermons and they would need to accept ours without resentment.

Yes, I have a daughter, aged 28, not in the church, and like you Bonnie.....we respect her choices without sermons, and she does accept ours as well. She respects our rules....when visiting, etc...she's a very loving, sweet girl, and have no doubt that she will be back to church. She calls on her momma all the time when needing prayer, and when needing someone to listen to her. Just today, she called crying for some problems she's facing....and am glad she can open up to me so I can pray for her. :)

[bonnie]

We never found sermons to have that much impact when our boys reached their teens. If they did not know and respect the house rules by then chances are they weren't going to. They also knew when they became of age their choices and the consequesnces for those were theirs to handle.We would help if we could but they would know certain choices would bring a certain response if asked. We could tell them if we felt they were wrong if asked without resentment.

Many times long after they left home they would discuss certain things, maybe ask an opinion but sermons as such would do little to reach them.

[fun2believe]

So, it sounds like you can have your kids in your life either way, preach to them or not. I wonder how those choices affect your relationship with them? Are you a parent to your children, or a friend? Or something else altogether?

[bonnie]

So, it sounds like you can have your kids in your life either way, preach to them or not. I wonder how those choices affect your relationship with them? Are you a parent to your children, or a friend? Or something else altogether?

I am and always will be first and foremost their mother. The role that plays changes over the years. I never said anything about preaching to them. Not sure where you got that.

I do not have any fear of losing my children because I may express an opinion to them. They do not fear losing a relationship with me if they express an opinion to me.

I am always their mother and and at this point we are also friends. Mother first.

I do not have to ignore or set aside long standing house rules to accommodate their wishes at this age.

They know nothing has changed. What was not allowed while living at home, still is not allowed. While in their home, their rules apply. If at anytime the unlikely occurred and we were uncomfortable with that, we would choose to leave. It is their home.

Our four sons, DIL's and grandchildren are really our life. Gives us the greatest pleasure. Extremely proud of our four sons and the men they have become. The choices they have made and the respect they continue to show their father and I. The greatest sense of gratitude is how they and their wives raise their children and the christian home they provide

[Guest truthseeker007]

I think we should respect all others ' decisions. I think that true Christianity can be compared to sheep that are willing to follow the shepherd because of their own free will. All religions that try to force people in believing something, islam, Catholics etc., is the direct opposite of this. In the old days the sheep used to follow the shepherd instead of the sheep being pushed to a certain direction by a shepherd. This is a big difference and i think that this is so divisive about Christianity even within families. So I think it is best to respect all others choices and God will decide who receives mercy. Personally i don t want to live a life without God, because nothing in the world can give me that rest that you get from God when you know you are on his side. Therefore, he is worth struggling for, even if it means a lot of suffering. If you have Jesus, you have all.

[bonnie]

I think we should respect all others ' decisions. I think that true Christianity can be compared to sheep that are willing to follow the shepherd because of their own free will. All religions that try to force people in believing something, islam, Catholics etc., is the direct opposite of this. In the old days the sheep used to follow the shepherd instead of the sheep being pushed to a certain direction by a shepherd. This is a big difference and i think that this is so divisive about Christianity even within families. So I think it is best to respect all others choices and God will decide who receives mercy. Personally i don t want to live a life without God, because nothing in the world can give me that rest that you get from God when you know you are on his side. Therefore, he is worth struggling for, even if it means a lot of suffering. If you have Jesus, you have all.

Our children respect ours and we respect theirs. Anytime they felt as if they could no longer live within the boundries in our home, they were free to set their own.

I don't think anyone should force or try to force belief on another. However when our sons remained at home, no matter if they were passed 18 they knew that church was sabbath destination and not an option. They did not have to believe,they did not have to like it, but that is just the way it was.

Many have felt that wrong, but to me the true measure of that is what our sons feel about it, especially now they have their own homes.

Their opinion is by far the most important, in fact the only one that really matters to my husband and I.

They have expressed gratitude for the rules.

Setting boundries and rules within your own home is a bit different than forcing a religion on someone. I don't know about other parents, but as young children our sons were definately pointed in the direction we felt was best for them.

We had/have certain never changing rules in our home and when they were old enough and didn't like that direction,they needed to set up their own home. None left because of resentment toward the house rules, or because something was being forced on them.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Of course it is the parents ' responsibility to create rules. But it is indeed necessary of a means of directing children to a certain direction. I think you should give them very good reasons for a desire in the heart that wants to reach out so that they, by their own free will, decide to serve the lord. But i think you did a great job Bonny, because children just don t know what is truth and what is error. In that case it is better to force the children to go to church on sabbath so that they at least have heard of that part of the story. It makes them better able to make wise decisions.

[bonnie]

1. But it is indeed necessary of a means of directing children to a certain direction.

I agree totally.

2. I think you should give them very good reasons for a desire in the heart that wants to reach out so that they, by their own free will, decide to serve the lord.

That is what hopefully is accommplished by not fearing your children or afraid your relationship will not withstand certain expectations of them.

All four have made that personal decision and have never wavered on it. At their age it certainly cannot be forced.

3 But i think you did a great job Bonny, because children just don t know what is truth and what is error.

This is not correct. Even very young children, properly taught from a very young age can know truth from error. I believe it says somewhere "even a child shall lead them"

4. In that case it is better to force the children to go to church on sabbath so that they at least have heard of that part of the story. It makes them better able to make wise decisions.

You seem either to have misread or have taken a great deal of liberty with what I said.

While my children were quite young they knew more than "at least that part of the story"

They also knew from a very young age, under our roof, our provisions free of charge the ground rules would always apply, whatever they were.

Doesn't it say something about raising up the child the way he should go and he will not depart from it.

Our sons knew from a very young age what the ground rules were.

They also made on their own, spiritual and religious decisions.

Their decisions were seperate from respecting the house rules.

I could not, if the situation had risen where a son decided to live outside marriage with a young woman,stop that. We would not have turned our back on our son, however they would not have been allowed in our home to share a bedroom as if married. But they would have never asked, or expected to do so. They would have respected the feelings of my husband and I. They would never have chosen to show that much disrespect. Nor would I go into their home in that situation and make issue of it.

We did not force baptism, did not force them to say they believed in our religious viewpoint and belief.

Nor did the day ever come they were forced to church, or warned if they did not go what would happen. They simply knew that the same rules they grew up with were never changing as far as under our roof and our provisions for their daily life

Our sons worked from the time they were 12 years old and by the time they graduated from high school all were making a very decent salary. One that would allow them to set up their own home and their own rules. They chose not to.

All four can give a very good accounting of what they believe and why. At times it did/does not necessarily agree with the training they received at home.

Our relationship was not/is not so fragile they have ever been afraid to state so.

Chruch attendence is but one. After 18 of course they did not have a curfew. What was required is if they were not going to be home at the stated hour, or decide to spend the night with a friend they were to call. Not because I needed to know their whereabouts at all times, but because they knew I worried. Especially about two of them as they were always so punctual.

As I said earlier, the opinions of others on this matter, or a misunderstanding of what I said is really of little significence.

My sons opinions and feelings on the topic of their childhood is really the only earthly opinion that counts.

I do feel sorry for parents that seem to have such a fragile relationship with their children that they fear firm ground rules

and the expectations those will be followed.

I don't fear losing that relationship because of ground rules still in place in our home. They do not fear losing that relationship because of the ground rules in theirs.

They were not forced to church as young independent adults. The choice was their to make at any time. They chose to stay home till all were 21. As young children, yes, they would be over ruled. Sorry if some disagree, but I believe that was our job. Just as firm rules against verbal disrespect etc should go into raising children.

Again,it is the opinion of our sons that matter. Neither my husband or I could be more proud of the men they have grown into.

[fun2believe]

At least for our four we found 21 long past the age of delivering

sermons. If it was something we could not condone or accept in our home they would not do so. At age 21 if they have their own home they have the privilege of setting their own ground rules and if different than ours they still would be treated as all our sons. We would respect their choices without sermons and they would need to accept ours without resentment.

[Robert]

...it is better to force the children to go to church on sabbath so that they at least have heard of that part of the story. It makes them better able to make wise decisions.

Tell me, what would Jesus do - does He force?

[bonnie]

At least for our four we found 21 long past the age of delivering

sermons. If it was something we could not condone or accept in our home they would not do so. At age 21 if they have their own home they have the privilege of setting their own ground rules and if different than ours they still would be treated as all our sons. We would respect their choices without sermons and they would need to accept ours without resentment.

Well, when you say 21 is long past the age of delivering sermons, it makes me think you must have preached at some point in time, no?

But I think you are right. We have to respect the wish's of those we love, really for all those in life. We have to respect the rights of others, the way God respects our wish's to accept Him or not. It's great to hear you have such a great family, I'm truely happy for you.

[Guest]

Redwood, thanks for sharing that. You are a very loving, compassionate, understanding and perhaps "forgiving" Father. I have seen people disown their own flesh and blood for less because they were overly concerned with "What will the brothers think?" Instead of what will my son think, what would Jesus do?Your a proud Dad and you should be! I remember an article by George Knight that said something to the effect that the Church needs to be what it says it is to its youth. Young people these days tend to be far more informed, and will scrutinize things. They cant be fooled into believing, it has to be real for them. Some day it will be real to your Son. God is loving, so that means he is patient, doesnt it?

[Beryl]

What a lot of hu-hah about nothing! Redwood put in a very good post, showing how he accepted his son's decisions in life, and immediately everybody starts to hound him for what he said he didnt do!!!

Thank you, Seth, for having read Redwood's post, AND UNDERSTOOD IT!

Beryl

[bonnie]

What a lot of hu-hah about nothing! Redwood put in a very good post, showing how he accepted his son's decisions in life, and immediately everybody starts to hound him for what he said he didnt do!!!

Thank you, Seth, for having read Redwood's post, AND UNDERSTOOD IT!

Beryl

No Beryl, not quite. It was responded to and for two weeks remained silent. It was then brought up again

What redwood accepts concerning his son and how he reacts is entirely up to him. Each of us has to make that decision. Perhaps everyone should have accepted redwoods post as what they should have done or remained silent

If what we do or are willing to accept from our sons centered on the religious aspect only, I believe they very well may have rebelled. That was not so. But they did know that as long as under our roof the house rules were to be complied with

They know in our home the house rules as to what we believe and will sanction in our home have never changed. Just as now that they have their own homes,the same is true for their house rules. They need to be respected by us as well.

R rated movies were mentioned. They have never been allowed in our home, not just when the boys were young, but we simply have no interest and do not want them around. The boys know this, they know we have zero tolerance for them and do not watch whether they are around our not. They would respect our wishes and not expect or anticipate any interest on our part. We have many things we can share with the boys so a R rated movie would not be a factor.

How others view movies like this is their business. The reaction of our sons to my husband and I bringing a R rated movie into their home would be the same. They would request we put it away.

[bonnie]

I apologize if redwood's post was to be viewed as confirmation and agreement only.

This topic was brought current after two weeks addressed to me.Not quite immediate. Sounding as if I had said we did/do preach to our sons. And with statements as this.......

...it is better to force the children to go to church on sabbath so that they at least have heard of that part of the story. It makes them better able to make wise decisions.

Had this been an agreement only topic it should have been stated as such.

We each have a responsibility towards our children and how each chooses to use that responsibility is their choice.

We had our hands full with our four and my brothers four that we raised.

Easiest way to avoid conflict or misunderstanding in something like this is to have a disclaimer at the top.

Agreement only preferred

[Denise]

Quote:

What a lot of hu-hah about nothing! Redwood put in a very good post, showing how he accepted his son's decisions in life, and immediately everybody starts to hound him for what he said he didnt do!!!

???? Huh??? Am I accused of this because I responded to Bonnie's post??? I was just joining in the conversation..... sorry about that.

[Jeannieb43]

What a lot of hu-hah about nothing! Redwood put in a very good post, showing how he accepted his son's decisions in life, and immediately everybody starts to hound him for what he said he didnt do!!!

Thank you, Seth, for having read Redwood's post, AND UNDERSTOOD IT!

Beryl

Ditto.

The principal thrust of Redwood's original post, as I understood it, was to express his thankfulness for his son. It resonated with me. I thank God every day for my children -- who are not in any way clones of me, or of their father. But they're wonderful human beings and I love expressing my pride in them to anybody who will listen.

Thanks, Redwood.

[Woody]

Thank you Seth , Beryl , and Jeannie and everyone else that can appreciate my experience with my son.

This topic is SO emotional to me that it brings tears just recalling this post of mine. I am so proud of my son. My experiences with him and seeing him grow up and make his own decisions is just overwhelming to me.

I guess what made this special was that I realized that even though we have made some different choices in life ... we EACH respects the other and the right to make those choices. I felt good reaching just a little out of my usual comfort zone and exploring the things that HE likes and values. I don't think that showing an interest in HIS things adversely affected my life and connection with God.

What a gift from God to be a father. Time with him is as good as GOLD. It just does not compare to anything in life. Well ... maybe to being a mother but I wouldn't know about that.

[bonnie]

quote]

Ditto.

The principal thrust of Redwood's original post, as I understood it, was to express his thankfulness for his son. It resonated with me. I thank God every day for my children -- who are not in any way clones of me, or of their father. But they're wonderful human beings and I love expressing my pride in them to anybody who will listen.

Thanks, Redwood.

I am not quite sure what was meant by the statement that your children are not clones. If children are considered clones because they remain faithful members of the SDA denomination, then I guess mine are. Maybe not quite tho because they are better at it than I. I guess my hopes were they would take what we tried to teach them and be better at it with their own children. Which seems to be the case.

I am hoping the next 11 will be clones of their parents in that respect.

And no, I mean no disrespect to those who either have children outside the denomination or they themselves are.

But it appears the reverse is not true.

Somehow having an opinion other than redwood's personal decision in the way he supports his son was somehow seen as an insult.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Beryl

What a lot of hu-hah about nothing! Redwood put in a very good post, showing how he accepted his son's decisions in life, and immediately everybody starts to hound him for what he said he didnt do!!!

Thank you, Seth, for having read Redwood's post, AND UNDERSTOOD IT!

Beryl

Ditto.

The principal thrust of Redwood's original post, as I understood it, was to express his thankfulness for his son. It resonated with me. I thank God every day for my children -- who are not in any way clones of me, or of their father. But they're wonderful human beings and I love expressing my pride in them to anybody who will listen.

Thanks, Redwood.

Yes, Jeannie. Isn't it wonderful how each child can be lead rather than cloned. Isn't that the example of Jesus? And then just look how they turn out. You said you would tell anybody who will listen. Well .... I would love to hear about your children. Please. Several here have shared about their children. Now it is your turn.

[olger]

Redwood. I read your initial post and believe that I understand it. A couple things concern me deeply, and I'll comment on them since you have made it public.

1) Our children are growing up in a world that is different from th one that we grew up in. They need our patience, and they need to be connected to us emotionally. They need to feel loved.

2) A parent who is consistent in standards & discipline will communicate love to their children, and security. Truth must be communicated in love. Love is not expressed in indulgence.

3) The part that concerns me, since you have chosen to make this public is the dichotomy between these two statements:

"He is one of the best Christians I know.."

"He is living with a very nice 'Christian' woman.."

I assume that mean that he is shacking up with a girl, here. I discern that from your tone & statement that you don't approve.

I agree with your not approving. This is what young people don't understand. "Living with" somone outside of marriage is deeply damaging to the spirit of both individuals. This wounds both of their hearts. This immediately brings three consequences into a person's life, and those consequences will lock our heart if not resolved through repentance.. Shacking up is using somebody. This is the opposite of love.

There are three ways that people respond to immoral choices.

1) They try to cover the pain with drugs, alcohol, music, or other things.. Let's be sadly honest here. They bury a lot of people in this box canyon.

2) They deny that right & wrong exist and reject guilt or shame altogether. A person's theology starts changing in wrong ways. This leads to agnosticism, atheism and spiritual death.

3) Lastly, we repent of our wrong acts. This requires that we acknowledge our sin and repent. God restores us to a right relationship with Him.

Three things can help lead a person to repentance. Caring for the pain in their heart that wrong choices cause is the first one. This make us available to help. Praying that God would break that stronghold in their life is the second one. Lastly is the willingness as their parents to resolve any issues of our own that might be affecting our children (Exodus 20 :5). This will set them free in a generational sense. Ellen White describes this as inherited and cultivated tendencies.

Pray that your heart would be surrendered, God will guide. We will pray for you as well.

In closing, your statement that this boy is an example to all of us is true. There are many kinds of examples, some good and some bad. Is this child a product of a broken home perhaps? Not trying to put thoughts in our minds, but it might be significant.

bro Ger

[Guest]

"I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some" (1 Corinthians 9:22, NRSV).

Jim felt called to take the gospel to a foreign country. Upon arrival, he discovered that the people had a test for foreigners to earn the right to stay among them. The foreigner had to swallow, and not regurgitate, a potion. If the person failed the test, he or she had to leave immediately; otherwise, they could be eaten by the tribe. Jim watched the tribe prepare the potion of milk, human saliva, blood, chewed-up herbs, and other herbal concoctions. It looked and smelled sickening. All he could do was pray—and drink. To everyone's amazement (especially his own), Jim drank it and held it down, earning the right to remain.

Making disciples might require us to do strange things: eat or drink strange mixtures, and be all things to all people so we can win some. This is the call and challenge of discipleship, especially as the gospel goes around the world and into cultures sometimes radically different from our own. Lesson 6

It seems that some of us have not yet read our Sabbath school lesson for this week. Its lesson 6. Yet some of you wonder why the youth are walking out our doors!

[Guest]

Is this child a product of a broken home perhaps? Not trying to put thoughts in our minds, but it might be significant.

bro Ger