Spoke like a Dragon....?

[fccool]

A church is not totally autonomous. A certain amount of church/state cooperation is necessary...

As I understand it, church/state entanglement has occurred when the church uses the state to enforce dogma. I don't think the issue in question fits that bill...

B_Bishop,

I appreciate your input. I realize what you are saying. Today our church cooperating with government on numerous issues outside of the normal scope of governmental function (which is ensurance of the CIVIL law). These IMO include marriage licenses and becoming a 501c3 corporation, both IMO are negative to a degree... but notice that these are not issues I'm bringing up here.

The issue at stake is not using government in the scope of its operation. The issue is going against Biblical command not to resolve disputes with believers by bringing in the secular government into the church... Even if it means that we may end up wronged by other party. The issue here that of love, and if we are to love our enemies... how much more are we to love our brothers and sisters who are confused on some issues?

Secondly, your position here that it is not an issue of enforcing a religious belief. I would like you to examine the issue closer. The issue is exactly about that. The reason these people lease SDA in their name because they BELIEVE that their religion still adheres to adventism. We (including myself) believe that that it is not. Forcing them to renounce their name is like forcing a Baptist church to say that they are not Baptist even if they don't baptize by immersion. The church's name is a statement of religious belief .

[delta]

I hate the union of Church and State in today's age. We need to keep separate'em. Because this unity always ends up in totalitarian and persecution for those whose not obeying the Church-states rules, of course.

Meanwhile please don't punish any government by saying that the government is ALWAYS an evil agent all the time no matter what! This mindsetting should always brings you into a forever negative thinking about any government and allergic to them...and forgetting the facts that sometimes God uses Government for His purposes and for the sake of His People. I'm sorry if you still believe that any government is always evil all the time.

However, God's people in many generations had their job in State office for living.

Daniel, Sadrac, Mesac and Abednego were not farmers nor mechandisers. They worked for government. Not of their own government but for the evil-Babylonian government. Yes, God can switch the unfortunate situation unto many blessings. The same story happened to Joseph in Egypt.

Those all didn't mean that God's people lowering their own standards. Nope! Because Jesus never purchase peace by compromising.

As far as not compromising, then, do you think our Church still should never asking for help from secular government?

[fccool]

"government is ALWAYS an evil agent all the time no matter what! This mindsetting should always brings you into a forever negative thinking about any government and allergic to them..."

First of all, I would ask you to not misrepresent what I am saying here . If I lead you to believe that this is my view, then I need to clear it up that is not. I'm not questioning the actions of government (at least not in this thread . I'm questioning our actions.

Daniel's situation is completely different in a way because Israel went into captivity. It was a huge test. They did not have religious or personal liberties. They were used as intelligent slaves by a pagan government.

"Jesus never purchase[d] peace by compromising."

Let's stick to the issue here, which is handing over belief disputes to a secular government who does not understand issues at stake. That would be a compromise on our part, not the act of not doing it .

"As far as not compromising, then, do you think our Church still should never asking for help from secular government?"

When it is in the scope of the constitution of that government ( to protect personal liberty of all individuals ) and it does not go against the word of God. For example, constitutionally... the churches never meant to be a 501c3 organizations and in fact were denied this status until sometime in this mid century.... because it is outside of the scope of the :

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

This is not my opinion, but the opinion of the founders of this country who denied churches incorporation for fear of church/state entanglements.

Nevertheless, thank you for your input... and I'm looking forward to read more of your thoughts on the subject.

[delta]

Hi FCcool,

Thx for your opinion.

I believe you need your attitude as well as your perspective in answering my question earlier about this issue and then explain it to yourself:

As far as not compromising our fundamental principles, then, do you think our Church still should never asking for help from secular government?

Let's have some clarification here....and I'm pretty sure your have your answers--at least for yourself.

[fccool]

"I believe you need your attitude as well as your perspective in answering my question earlier about this issue and then explain it to yourself:"

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here... can you clarify?

"As far as not compromising our fundamental principles, then, do you think our Church still should never asking for help from secular government?"

I think I have partially answered this question in the post above. It seems to me that in God's original plan there was no place for a Government as we see it today being a separate entity from people themselves that is a "sovereign" over them. That is what America's founders were trying to restore ... the position of the people to be a sovereign over government and God to be sovereign over people, thus empowering them to govern their lives efficiently. Notice that Israel originally did not have a system of a "government" until they gave in to the peer pressure of other countries to have one.

1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as judges for Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not walk in his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, "You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways; now appoint a king to lead [a] us, such as all the other nations have."

6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."

10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

Does our government, or governments of the world for that matter, resemble what God has predicted what would happen if we choose a king over us instead of having a communal system of self-governing people? I think it does . Today we pay over 50% of our income as a nation to run a function of such government. And we complain, but we have no right to before God because we approve of its existence. Not to say that the governments do not play a role in God's plan, and quite frankly in case of unbelievers it is the only way to have some kind of order. But in case of believers... we have no need for it if we follow God's law.

Secondly, the role of the Governments historically (as in God's purpose) has been to make sure that following the 6 commandments, which describe to human relation to humans, is creating an orderly societies. This was by far not the plan of God to happen that way, but He in a way is patient and does not want us to perish and want us to have an environment in which we can choose to follow or to reject Him. So he works around our mistakes and makes use of them to teach us important lessons. That was the case with polygamy in ancient times. God did not condemn it directly, but he allowed for choices and worked around and through our weaknesses.

So, to answer your question based on everything stated above... yes, of course there are times when we can seek assistance from Government... if it an issue of preservation of life, property, or personal safety. I think even in those extreme cases we should understand that if things could be resolved differently, then let them be so. As Jesus himself stated:

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

You may think that these requests from Jesus are idealistic, and unrealistic, yet I don't think that he would ask of us anything that He does not expect us to do. Our purpose is not to seek safety and justice in this world, but to reach people for Christ by showing them that we value them more than perishable things.

This is especially the case when it comes to believers that we think are hurting us in some ways.