Kick 'em Out ??

[Woody]

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Does anybody know if those who were convicted of fraud in England are still members of the SDA church? I agree with what the article says, that we are a forgiving church and that our doors always remain open for all to study, pray, and worship, but the church needs to show publicly in some way that it does not accept that kind of behavior on the part of its membership. I would hope this has already been done.

If we started kicking all the people out that don't have the 'right' kind of behavior ... no one would be left in the church. The church is for sinners. If you aren't a sinner ... then perhaps that is the group that should leave.

It is not the job of the church to judge who is worthy of being a member ... because we ALL fall short. What would Jesus say?

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Neither do I condemn thee ... go and sin no more

[John317]

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Does anybody know if those who were convicted of fraud in England are still members of the SDA church? I agree with what the article says, that we are a forgiving church and that our doors always remain open for all to study, pray, and worship, but the church needs to show publicly in some way that it does not accept that kind of behavior on the part of its membership. I would hope this has already been done.

If we started kicking all the people out that don't have the 'right' kind of behavior ... no one would be left in the church. The church is for sinners. If you aren't a sinner ... then perhaps that is the group that should leave.

It is not the job of the church to judge who is worthy of being a member ... because we ALL fall short. What would Jesus say?

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Neither do I condemn thee ... go and sin no more

Surely you're not saying that there are no standards and that anyone who wants to be a member of the church has to be allowed to be remain a member no matter what they've done, are you?

Membership is not for everyone. No one has a "right" to membership in the SDA church or in any other denomination. There are standards and qualifications to be met, and the church has a right to determine what these are.

Anyone should be able to study and worship, but if we go by what the NT says, it's clear that there is such as thing as church discipline. Study 1 Cor. 5, especially vvs. 6-8, 13. "Drive out the wicked person from among you," said Paul by the Holy Spirit. Jesus would no doubt agree with Paul's writings.

Jesus told his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Jesus gave the church authority to maintain sound doctrine and to determine issues of discipline, which is the context of that verse (Matt. 18: 18).

Ellen White also speaks to that issue. For instance, look at what she says in relationship to the experience of Achen.

[Woody]

If we want to look at the official church policy on membership ... we could all be kicked out of membership. None would qualify. I find it curious as to how inconsistent the rules for membership in this elite organization are enforced.

From your personal experience ... what sins would you say disqualify one for being in this church?

What happens is that each local church enforces it according to the whims of those present at a particular meeting.

If 51% of those present at a meeting ... don't particularly like what you did .... you are out. I've been in those meetings and written disfellowship letters. I know how it is done.

[John317]

But don't we believe in following the Bible's instructions when it comes to open, public sin? What is the church to do in situations where people do things such as these men in English did, taking advantage of many in the church and lying over a long period of time and emptying people's bank accounts under false pretenses, doing so deliberately and deceptively? This does not call for following Jesus' and Paul's commands?

[John317]

If we want to look at the official church policy on membership ... we could all be kicked out of membership. None would qualify...

I don't see it that way. What specific policies are you speaking of?

Is our beloved church's policies that unreasonable, harsh, and unjust?

[Woody]

Policies?? I would describe them as broad and widespread so as to cover any and all situations of sin. This allows for local control over membership. It is left to the judgment of the local congregation. This is good in some regards. I don't like big brother looking over my shoulder. But on the other hand ... it can lead to abuses since there are little protections.

Honestly. I don't trust the judgment of 51% of those present at a particular church meeting during the busy week. If one has a greivence with another ... all you have to do is to stack the deck so to speak .... and it is easy to get rid of someone.

Been there ... seen it done.

[Neil D]

Been there, seen it done...and the church becomes not a church of rules but rather of politics...

In all honesty, these people who have been caught defrauding other members of thier own church, would probably fade away and leave once it becomes public. Why would you endure the stares of the victims?

To my way of thinking, there would be no need for "church standards".

[Woody]

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To my way of thinking, there would be no need for "church standards".

You got that Right Neil.

There is no need for 'Church Standards'. We are to rely on the Bible and not extra-Biblical "standards" of behaviour.

Standards are an invention of the Jews. That is what they had and oppressively forced others to obey them.

The church manual chapter of 'Reasons for Church Discipline' is just that. It allows us to sit in judgment of our fellow believers to see if they can stand the test of the Standards.

Let me tell you ... TRUTHFULLY ... I could disfellowship ANY of you with the rules we have for discipline and disfellowship. I would have justification and all I would need to do is to stack the deck with a few of my friends and get them to attend the church business meeting. It would not take many because not many attend those meetings.

Who are we joking to think that somehow the rest of us who have not been kicked out ... are somehow more holy and are somehow 'keeping' the standards or the Law? We ALL fail. I am no better then the ones who stole that money. So, if you want my membership ... you can have it.

[Neil D]

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So, if you want my membership ... you can have it.

I think I will take you up on your offer, Redwood...

So yeah, I want your membership...

....I want it here

............with the rest of us..... :smilewink:

[Woody]

Thanks Neil.

The sooner we can understand that we are all sinners and that we are all equal in the sight of God ... the sooner we can finish the work ... and not the work of judging each other ... but the work of loving each other and sharing the GOOD news.

And you know ... it is our membership in the Body of Christ that matters ... not a membership in a particular church denomination.

[olger]

Redwoo said: "There is no need for 'Church Standards'. We are to rely on the Bible and not extra-Biblical "standards" of behaviour."

Party time...

The bath water was useless. The baby was precious.

olger

[Woody]

Welcome home Olger. Sorry for your loss.

[John317]

I've been a member of about 10 different congregations in my lifetime so far, and worked in some of those as an assistant pastor, Sabbath school teacher, deacon, etc. The experience you describe, unfortunately, seems to me a description of another church. I know there are wrong things done and sometimes abuse of power, but that is not the typical experience as far as I've seen.

But in any case, we should follow the instructions in the matter of church discipline as the Bible and Ellen White teach. Any organization has to have some rules and the church is no exception. I'm sure you're glad CA has some rules. Church discipline is primarily for the purpose of people's salvation. Without discipline the church becomes just a social club.

Some of the Bible's instructions regarding church discipline:

"You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." "Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened." "Now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler [robber]-- not even to eat with such a one." "Purge the evil person from among you."

Two reasons for Paul's instructions here: (1) It impresses upon offender the fact that his spiritual condition is very serious and needs attention; and (2) it protects the church from being "leavened" by evil association.

[Neil D]

Wow, John....

So, tell me...when and where does God enter into the congregation? He has been known to kill, and recently, I saw where He instructed a prophet to lie... Tell me, by the church standards, would He be allowed to be a member?

You see, I dn't think that works very well...I too have been member of various congrgations and every one of them worked that way and the congregation always started fighting....Why do I want to be a member of a congregation that continues to fight? Especially over doctrine and church standards?

Now, I have been a member of many small groups, and I find that they work much better...They bring people together under one purpose, to study....If someone doesn't like it, they don't come to study group any more...they move on,.... Why wont this work in the church setting? The church comes together to worship. They work out problems in the small groups. or appointed leaders...Dress codes are non existant...joking around allowed, even in the foyer...but the sanctuary...depends upon the time of the year, i guess...

[olger]

Welcome home Olger. Sorry for your loss.

Thanks partner. Bless you too.

Dad was an unusual example of God bringing beauty out of trials.

oG

[John317]

Do you view the Bible as "normative"? What about the instructions of the Bible and of Ellen White on these matters? Would you have the church disregard them? Or how do you think we should apply them, if at all?

Also, isn't there a difference between being a member and being a non-member who is able to worship, pray and study with the congregation? What's the standard for being a member in your judgment? Should membership be open to anyone without regard to any standards except for the individual's request to be a member?

[Woody]

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What's the standard for being a member in your judgment?

Please show me any biblical support for having membership in a denomination.

Honestly ... membership is UN-Biblical.

[John317]

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What's the standard for being a member in your judgment?

Please show me any biblical support for having membership in a denomination.

Honestly ... membership is UN-Biblical.

In NT times, there were, of course, no denominations whatsoever. If you were a follower of Christ and had been baptized, and worshipped with other Christians, you were considered a part of the body of Christ, and as such, a member of the local congregation.

Just because "denominations" are not mentioned in the Bible does not mean that the concept of, or organization into, denominations is unbiblical. Something is unbiblical, properly speaking, if it contradicts the Bible's teaching, not if it is merely not mentioned.

In the matter of being a member of the SDA church, I assume that you requested to be a member of this denomination and agreed to abide by certain standards. It is kind of late now for you to be claiming that there should not be any standards (if indeed this is what you are maintaining) or that the very notion itself of being a member in a denomination in not Biblical.

You said, "There is no need for 'Church Standards'. We are to rely on the Bible and not extra-Biblical 'standards' of behaviour."

Should there be any consequences, in your thinking, for a member who consistently and even openly and stubbornly violates those Bible standards?

[Woody]

You will find that many things are not Biblical. Pathfinders are not Biblical ... yet I support them.

I would also point out that you yourself do not approve of everything the church does. While I don't believe standards to be biblical ... I have agreed to them by accepting membership.

I know of no one who agrees with all of church politics as outlined in the church manual which is where the standards are imposed and outlined. I would say that most leaders do not like or accept all the politics as outlined in the manual. Many choose to just throw out the manual. Some just use it as a suggestion and take what they like and throw out the rest.

I am a believer in the latter.

I consider myself a member of the Body of Christ. I was not baptized into the SDA church. I was baptized into the Body of Christ. We have to place things in perspective.

[olger]

Wal-Mart isn't biblical. And..

sadly.. so isn't a Glascraft MH foam machine.

oG

[John317]

You will find that many things are not Biblical. Pathfinders are not Biblical ... yet I support them.

In what way are Pathfinders not Biblical? Do you mean in the sense of not being mentioned in the Bible? If that is the case, as said before, the fact that something is not mentioned in the Bible does not make it "not Biblical." For instance, the automobile is not mentioned in the Bible, yet only the Amish, et. al., would say this means the automobile is "not Biblical."

[Woody]

Olger .... what say you?

[John317]

I would also point out that you yourself do not approve of everything the church does.

It's true I don't approve of everything some local congregations do or everything some individual pastors or leaders do or teach, but I do not see anything in the accepted, official doctrines of the church, as they have been passed by the world church in General Conference, that I disapprove of.

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While I don't believe standards to be biblical ... I have agreed to them by accepting membership.

Yes, you accepted membership into the denomination on the basis of certain conditions. It is not an unconditional membership, and neither is being a part of the body of Christ unconditional.

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... I consider myself a member of the Body of Christ. I was not baptized into the SDA church. I was baptized into the Body of Christ. We have to place things in perspective.

Of course. But when you were baptized, you doubtless also willingly became a member of the SDA movement, not a member of the Roman Catholic Church or of the United Methodist Church. I did the same as you, and I'm very glad I did. I've never doubted it was the right thing to do or wished I hadn't done it.

[Woody]

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I do not see anything in the accepted, official doctrines of the church, as they have been passed by the world church in General Conference, that I disapprove of.

I am with you on that. I also believe in the 28

[olger]

The Amish have an aversion to technology in general. They feel that by avoiding as much of it as possible, they can better preserve the old, good ways. I have have many Old Order Amish cousins right up there in Holmes county. Good people. Not as spiritual as they could be.

However, the topic of standards is a good one. And we need them, ever more as the world around us is casting them aside/away. The Bible is not indifferent to standards, but rather upholds them.

gcw