So why do people fall for people like Ernie Knoll

[doug yowell]

We can't determine nor select nor choose who will go to Heaven. Hope that helps define things.

Yes, that's helpful.Thanks.

[NJK Project]

there is not an exact English equivalent for "einverstanden" nor for "egal"... the closest translation of my little German sentence would be: "I am not in agreement with your view, but that is not a problem with me and nothing about which I would bother to argue." That's all...no more, no less.

I'm not sure why you are so paranoid...

[NJK Project]

This morning on the way out of the sanctuary, after a very inspiring hour of involvement with the Sabbath School class, I had the opportunity to spend a few minutes with an Irish person who happened to believe somewhat different about the unfolding of events that will surround the second coming of Christ.

Now I could have picked up on his point with the intent of setting him straight about the theology he understood, and ended up totally destroying all of the peace he had received from the earlier discourse of the class study.

It seemed to me to be the better part of wisdom to let him bask in the Sonlight of what he had experienced minutes earlier, rather than eclipse his moment of peace just to prove how wrong he was. Then let Jesus give him the time He needs to convince him at a later time of the error of his understanding as he studies the Scripture for himself.

Now the appropriateness of the action (or non-action depending on your point of view) would obviously not always be the same. But our own responsibility to make sure everyone else we meet know the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth is largely mitigated by the fact that only Jesus knows the best time to intervene in other people's space, at a time when Jesus knows is best, and using our best sense of logic we need never fear He isn't perfectly capable of picking up to complete the task of what we don't finish, as long as we're depending on Jesus to use our efforts to His glory.

We are not going to be saved for eternity by how much we know, or how perfect our understanding is, or how much we do correctly. But our salvation is found in knowing Him Who does know perfectly, and also through Him Who does perfectly what He knows. Preach the Word as is asked of every disciple. But leave the convicting to the Holy Spirit. And I don't believe it is left to us to determine who will be found in the Lambs book of life. Even to Ernie Knoll.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”Matt 13:30 NKJV

[NJK Project]

...And/Yet the fundamental question still is, was Ernie Knoll properly (= Biblically Tested) (e.g., Isa 8:20; 1 Thess 5:19-22; Acts 17:11, etc)...I increasingly, factually don’t see so. And if anyone is interested in obejctively examining him, it is best to start with both sides of an issue, and so I recommend the two books that straightforwardly addressed the various published critics of him by various SDA’s: ‘Truth Book 1’ and ‘Truth Book 2’.... and I do not have a ‘“dog” in this fight’ but “the Truth”... wherever God would have chosen to impart it.

[NJK Project]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

And I don't believe it is left to us to determine who will be found in the Lambs book of life. Even to Ernie Knoll.

So church discipline (discipling-Matt.28:19,20)is now irrelevant,and we no longer need to worry about false teachers ect...? What does this mean?

Jesus’s full teachings here show that Church Discipline (Matt 18:15-18) and Discipling (Matt 28:18-20) are two distinct/different things.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here's an excerpt from the latest EK dream 0f 4/12/12:

Quote:

Now the Herald states that an Individual will come into the room and that I am to pay close attention to what He does. A Man walks in wearing white shoes, white pants, a white shirt, a white belt, and a white chef’s hat.

sounds like EK had a Pat Boone moment..

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I mentioned my personal experience with "dreams" to illustrate that if a guy on mescaline is having the same kinds of dreams as this dude we are talking about, then this guy is obviously not connected either.

When someone is on mind-altering drugs, whether legal or illegal, and particularly when illegal, even more subtly when illegal, Satan then has an opening to place thoughts in a persons mind. And as Satan can literally masquerade himself as Christ, then he surely can give a person dreams which seem to be genuine (i.e., from God). That is why, on top of the tests which I have stated above, the test of fruits, which is not actually only what results are present, but, fully thought through, what results would also be produced if that revelation was followed (=Deut 13:1-5). So that is why claims of revelation from God need to be carefully and Biblically examined.

I am really curious as to why the legality of the substance would make any difference.

[NJK Project]

Here's an excerpt from the latest EK dream 0f 4/12/12:

Quote:

Now the Herald states that an Individual will come into the room and that I am to pay close attention to what He does. A Man walks in wearing white shoes, white pants, a white shirt, a white belt, and a white chef’s hat.

sounds like EK had a Pat Boone moment..

Hopefully, for your own sake, that was just merely (another) attempt at saying something cute/quip/funny, because if that was meant as any sort of “proof” that that Dream must surely not be inspired, it was a “superficial”, at best (i.e., and not even “spurious”). This may be all due/reflective of your determined mindset against Ernie Knoll and anything he may say, but that is still not the Biblical stance (1 Thess 5:19-22). If God can e.g., use the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, or the covetous Balaam to give valid prophetic revelations, then he can use/continue to use a repentant Ernie Knoll. [And does Pat Boone go around wearing a ‘white chef hat’??]

The realism or even “solemnity” of the symbols that are used in/for a Divine Revelation are actually never a test in themselves, for if that was the case one would have to default write of both Daniel and Revelation for, among many other symbols related: ‘4/10-horned and 7-headed animals’. Even the book/prophecies of Ezekiel was shunned for quite a while by Jewish Rabbis because of his “wild” visions and also because he spoke of many things about the new (Messianic) temple and its services which were slightly different (but actually advancing improvements) on what had been writing in the books of Moses.

As it was quite explicitly stated in Knoll’s dream, in that next section in the dream, wherein that all-white dressed man was going to appear, things would be “very symbolic”. And what is next depicted is a representation of the Sifting of the Church, with several Remnant of the Remnant reiterations involved until, interestingly enough, only those grains which do not fall through the sift have remained.

There are indeed very important spiritual indications in that dream for the Church’s understanding because:

(1) with flour being capable of being made from wheat, the “sifting” here using that “refined/processed” symbolism instead of the more “raw/primary” one of wheat (as depicted in the Bible (Amos 9:9; Matt 3:12) and also SOP, it represents that an even finer scrutiny will be now done with this historical stage of the SDA Church, which is indeed much more “advanced/developed/refined/processed” (hence their Laodicean attitude (Rev 3:17) than those prior times when a sifting and shaking took place.

(2) As I discuss here in the comments on Rev 6:12, (in regards to wheat itself), the “sifting” process can be seen as different from the “Shaking”, with the sifting involving the separating selection process between wheat and tares/darnel from the threshing floor and then the winnowing/shaking process used to further “purify” the selected wheat by separating the kernel from any lingering chaff. So the view given to Ernie Knoll which is way beyond a ‘wheat stage’, would show just how more stringent the process will now be, with indeed the fine grains of produced flour to be first thoroughly sifted, (and then probably having or involving the “shaking of the sieve/sifter” to remove any clinging flour particles from the desired larger “grains”). Obviously the off-beat message here with God desiring the lumpy grains is that ‘He is not looking for the many in the Church who are “just going with the flow”’. However valued these are to man.

(3) And as this was all linked to the last lingeringly remaining grain in Knoll’s hourglass vision, which spoke of the last remnant of time remaining in the probation of the SDA Church, and as these larger grains would help “prolong time” as they would be too large to go through the Hourglass, then these grains are manifestly representative of the Divinely-choice few who are standing in the gap in the SDA Church, the ones sighing and crying for the abominations done therein, and who by those prayers and interventions are helping to prolong the Church probation time before its Final Shaking and Ezek 9 judgement, as also spoken of in that dream of Knoll’s. And as that dream also goes on the relate following that Sifting/Shaking, God will then act, through the power of his Spirit, to raise up a replacing Remnant (LDE 59-61) from even “brands plucked from the burning” (GC 665.2; cf. Zech 3:2).

So, despite the “common” symbolism used in that dream, upon deeper and substantive examination, Ernie Knoll’s dream actually passes the Biblical test of prophetic/inspired genuineness. As seen many times in the Bible, pointedly in matters of testing his people, as it is inherently involved in apocalyptic prophecy, God will not use straightforward or readily acceptable and desired symbols to convey that message which He actually wants to veil, and that with known “stumbling block” imagery (as conversely are some of Knoll’s ‘simple/simplistic’ imagery): indeed, in order to “confound those who think they are wise.” (1 Cor 1:27) And, while, others, (i.e., non-SDA’s; = “other Sheep”), as shown later in his dream with the ex-Goths, will instead be easily drawn and readily “fed” through that utilized simplicity.

[NJK Project]

Quote:

Overaged: I mentioned my personal experience with "dreams" to illustrate that if a guy on mescaline is having the same kinds of dreams as this dude we are talking about, then this guy is obviously not connected either.

NJK Project: When someone is on mind-altering drugs, whether legal or illegal, and particularly when illegal, even more subtly when illegal, Satan then has an opening to place thoughts in a persons mind. And as Satan can literally masquerade himself as Christ, then he surely can give a person dreams which seem to be genuine (i.e., from God). That is why, on top of the tests which I have stated above, the test of fruits, which is not actually only what results are present, but, fully thought through, what results would also be produced if that revelation was followed (=Deut 13:1-5). So that is why claims of revelation from God need to be carefully and Biblically examined.

I am really curious as to why the legality of the substance would make any difference.

My point was that the legality of the drug here doesn’t/shouldn’t matter, but some people may be prone to think that only dreams when under the influence of an illegal drug would surely be from Satan. In both cases, the causing of those mental views was not done by God.

That generally said, I scientifically see that God would be skillfully using the same natural processes that causes dreams and “hallucinations” (=visions) to when giving a person a revelation. So the only difference here would be that he would be in control of either craftily selecting the various thoughts/knowledge that the person already has in their minds to craft, especially, a Divine dream [which I distinctly (i.e., versus visions) understand to mainly/controlling involve the rehashing of literally or effectively past things] (e.g., the prophetic rolling loaf dream that was seen by the Midianites (Judges 7:13-15).

So the real “proof” of the matter in any claim of prophetic revelation is in its thorough Biblical testing, which includes, particularly in regards to the “fruits” test (Matt 7:15-20), (as it commercially is with the testing a product about to be put on the market), thinking it fully through to see what its end fruit would be if the counsel given through it was fully followed through to its end. I.e., whether that would advance or hinder the Gospel and bring glory to God or not. Thus far, in Ernie Knolls case and his valid (public) visions, I see that he is passing that arguably, most determinative key test.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The sifting time is hardly a new revelation.

By the way, EK also seem to have a preoccupation with dimples on his "angel guide." I find that to be rather....inane.

[CoAspen]

Here's an excerpt from the latest EK dream 0f 4/12/12:

Quote:

Now the Herald states that an Individual will come into the room and that I am to pay close attention to what He does. A Man walks in wearing white shoes, white pants, a white shirt, a white belt, and a white chef’s hat.

sounds like EK had a Pat Boone moment..

(disco dancing...J Travolta...)

[NJK Project]

The sifting time is hardly a new revelation.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

So the real “proof” of the matter in any claim of prophetic revelation is in its thorough Biblical testing,.....

Exactly! and it does not meet the test!!

Quote:

Thus far, in Ernie Knolls case and his valid (public) visions, I see that he is passing that arguably, most determinative key test.

Sorry, I can only say it seems rather delusional to think that. His words have been countered by several people on this thread, with verification, as to his accusations against the church and yet persist to believe him. That is your choice, but not a realistic one.

[NJK Project]

Quote:

So the real “proof” of the matter in any claim of prophetic revelation is in its thorough Biblical testing,.....

Exactly! and it does not meet the test!!

Quote:

Thus far, in Ernie Knolls case and his valid (public) visions, I see that he is passing that arguably, most determinative key test.

Sorry, I can only say it seems rather delusional to think that. His words have been countered by several people on this thread, with verification, as to his accusations against the church and yet persist to believe him. That is your choice, but not a realistic one.

I joined this thread 11 posts into it, and just reviewing what had been said, the only substantive “countering” which I found was Amelia’s objections in Post #169798 [which “cricket” had actually answered and no one had given any response to], mainly* Knoll’s ‘priorly asking God to talk to him.’ [Do point out, if that is even applicable, where you are seeing other ‘strong (and indisputable) countering points’]. That request of Knoll’s is not at all unusual, everyone asks God in some form, explicit or intimately implicit (which the Holy Spirit fully understands and accurately convey (Rom 8:26)) to reveal Himself/His Will to them. Daniel fasting 3 week entreaty in Dan 9:1-23 is a perfect example, and after ca. 17 years since his last vision which he just did not understand, God answered him with the 70 Week prophecy revelation.

And I just do not see that Knoll was asking God to ‘give him prophetic dreams.’ And from quite similar personal experience I can see just how, he may have been pressingly God for more clear guidance in a particular issue and God answered the prayer, but in an actually unexpected, but ultimately related way. So it seems to me that Knoll’s earnest seeking out to God came to make him a choice vessel which God could use for such prophetic revelations and God effectively “took advantage of that manifested opportunity to do so. In answer to such petitions (=James 1:5), God gives whatever wise answer He knows is best.

Similarly, EGW was given her first (non-personally related) prophetic revelation when she was earnestly seeking out for God. (EW 11.3-12.1, 78-81). [And in actuality, I see that God may in many cases actually spot someone to function as a prophet for him from a long time before in their life (perhaps Paul), even, as with Jeremiah, from the womb (Jer 1:5), and when that person later in life has proven to be faithful with the various gifts which God may have gifted them with in order to fulfill that calling, he seizes that finally arrived at state/mindset to launch that dormant ministry.

*In regards to Amelia’s other objections:

-EGW was shown people who would be saved and part of the 144,000, not to mention speaking to, and heeding instructions from, her dead husband (and I’ll need to read for myself the exact context of Knoll statement.

-the KJV issue was a major one for me, (and I’ll get around to commenting on it in my post when I complete my study of this issue) until I noticed the “double/self-entente” (as it is deliberately and purposefully common in those dreams) in the whole matter where the Herald did not actually/explicitly say to ‘only use the KJV, but merely left such a conclusion as the likely understanding. But as explain in the Knoll Truth Book, the issue may not be translation in itself, but, as rightly discussed in other SDA Forums, an issue of accurately, underlying manuscripts. The English translation can quite logically be improved upon, particularly in keeping with the different Hebrew and Greek words which are actually used. But the KJV may indeed have a better, the best, MSS source where, if an unresolvable issue of variant readings occurs, as it frequently does, that inspired indication may just be saying to go by the MSS used for the KJV. And I also do see “stumbling block-wise”, why this statement would be so ambiguously stated. By focusing on the facts at hand, which include the MSS for the KJV you can begin to make a rational understanding of that revelation. And in regards to pointedly rendered syntax from the original languages, particularly Hebrew syntax, the KJV does a better job than most in properly conveying the different verb tenses that are used while other versions/translations just render everything alike and/or with distinct words which are not actually accurate renditions of the verbal expression. (Relatedly/Similarly EGW receives much opposition for recommending the Apocrypha (16MR 34.3))

So for the scholarly uniformed and/or non-functional in the SDA Church, (and ultimately blame your pastors and leaders if you are, I can see how the way that statement was convey in Knoll’s dreams serves as a “LOL” stumbling block....so fittingly/deservingly be it, for it is indeed reflective of, and exploitingly touches upon a pivotal great deficiency in diffusedly functional scholarship (i.e., from leader to lay members) within the SDA Church.

So, to pointedly answer your reproach, truth for me is not determined by what you, or others, may, “Biblically” or otherwise think or know. So I will continue to go by what the results of my examination of Knoll are.

And, to duly respond to you "in kind", it is your spurious “countering” (indeed by seeing “many” in this thread when there factually is potentially just one), and as simply demonstrated by what you have superfluously and/or spuriously brought forth as arguments thus far in the discussions with me here (include what was deleted), [all of which, when substantive (or at times substantiv-ish), have been answered) which Biblically/Spiritually is both substantively and intellectually “delusional” and “unrealistic”, or worse: “indifferent”.

So, also, don’t worry nor feel “sorry” for me, I have spiritually greatly benefitted from my Biblical/Proper Testing of Ernie Knoll.

[NJK Project]

...I have spiritually greatly benefitted from my Biblical/Proper Testing of Ernie Knoll

Can’t help but see/perceive in the sifting symbolism in that dream of Knoll which was initially working from an original 21 lumps of flour (which I see a representative of ‘groups of God’s professed people’ thus Church(es), with reiteratively 1 “surviving” lump then forming a new “Remnant within the Remnant”, which itself is further sifted, (I.e., even the most faithful are being further sifted), that this is echoing what was solemnly and factually shown to EGW in regards to ‘not even 1 in 20 [>5%] being ready in the Church for the Shaking & the/their end’ (e.g., LDE 172.1). And what Knoll was apparently being, likely, factually similarly shown here is that “not even 1 in 21 [>4.75%] [keeping in mind that those separated lumps in Knolls dream were merely further (sub-)divided and not added to] are ready today in the SDA Church. Therefore, out of a “claimed” 17,500,000 baptized SDA’s today that would yield less than 833,333 individuals.

[NJK Project]

...Therefore, out of a “claimed” 17,500,000 baptized SDA’s today that would yield less than 833,333 individuals.

Significant Precising Correction: Mathematically, accurately crunching the numbers in that sifting dream of Knoll reveals by the 4 sifting the actually cumulative “sifting surviving” ratio then is: 1 in 5292 which would yield ca. 3307 members from the present SDA “count”. Yet that is all before a further, 5th sifting was shown to have been done...

Hint: Further Prophetic/Historical Studies may reveal that these have been 5 actual Divine-sifting in/of the SDA Church since ca. 1908, corresponding to the 7 Churches period in Rev 2&3, with the 5th Church similarly involving a final Shaking before the Triumphant (6th) Church is set up, and the main moral/message in all of this is that although the SDA Church has been steadily growing in numbers during that time, those who are/were actually ready for the end, as God will “fully” carry it out then, are dwindlingly few.

[CoAspen]

Ah...me thinks Star Trek has more validity!

[M. T. Cross]

Here is something I wonder.

A lot of ya'll seem to spend a lot of valuable time and energy crunching numbers, trying to figure out the shakings and the siftings and looking for the most dubious and dire meanings in the scriptures. It seems pretty obvious that since so many people come up with completely different answers that no-one has a real clue as to what they are talking about. But be sure it will all spell doom and gloom to all but a chosen few. No-one can agree on who those chosen few are though. Will they be chosen because of faith? Will they be chosen because of works? Will they be legalists? Will they be conservitive or liberal?

I get reading all this and sometimes get to laughing because I am not a Christian and I think I spend more time reflecting on the life and love of Jesus than a large percentage of Christians do.

[Planey]

Ah...me thinks Star Trek has more validity!

Wa-a-a-a-ay more!

Graeme

[LifeHiscost]

I get reading all this and sometimes get to laughing because I am not a Christian and I think I spend more time reflecting on the life and love of Jesus than a large percentage of Christians do.

And contrary to your best perception as indicated by the impression many may have given you, EC, one can know when and where they are going, even without doing much more than staying in touch with Jesus and following Him as He leads.

"He that has the Son has life. He that does not have the Son of God does not have life.

I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God. Now you can know you have life that lasts forever. We are sure that if we ask anything that He wants us to have, He will hear us. "1 John 5:12-14 NLV

God blesses!

[Bravus]

Quote:

Mathematically, accurately crunching the numbers in that sifting dream of Knoll reveals by the 4 sifting the actually cumulative “sifting surviving” ratio then is: 1 in 5292 which would yield ca. 3307 members from the present SDA “count”. Yet that is all before a further, 5th sifting was shown to have been done...

So, give up Sevs: according to NJK, none of you are going to heaven. Pretty sure he believes he is, though.

Purest human hubris, claiming to know the mind of God, and conveniently deciding everyone in the world is wrong.

Say this is correct: before the 5th sifting, which will cut it down even further, 3307 SDAs out of 17,500,000 will be saved (just ignore those already saved and already dead for the moment).

That means God plans to kill 99.98% of all Seventh-day Adventists alive. I mean, I know Jesus would have died for even just one person, but still...

Certainly the probability of any of us on this site making it, with a probability of 0.018% of salvation for Seventh-day Adventists, seems pretty slender.

[CoAspen]

You ain't no pagan!!!

[Naomi]

agreed!

[Overaged]

I think I spend more time reflecting on the life and love of Jesus than a large percentage of Christians do.

I have noticed that my friend; and it is one of the things about you that I really appreciate.

[Overaged]

That means God plans to kill 99.98% of all Seventh-day Adventists alive. I mean, I know Jesus would have died for even just one person, but still...

lol, Bravus! Good to "see" you here again! I like your math. It says it all.