So why do people fall for people like Ernie Knoll

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

BTW I have read the Bible at least 5 times and found it more tedious and depressing each time. Thats just me though. I know many find a great deal of beauty in it and I think that is awesome.

And I, for one, love the way you bring out that beauty that you see in the Bible. LOL, I am sorry. I had a slight chuckle at your expense. You said the term "Christian humans." LOL, what other kinds of Christians are there?

Well I would suppose that the angels would be christians.......

But there is a lot of humans that are not Christian.

Of course there is beauty in the Bible. There is beauty in almost everything if you look hard enough

[Overaged]

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But I was in fact saying that humans, christian humans, are the ones saying this.

As a Christian human, may I suggest that the few there be that find the Way, is a comparative number as per this scripture appears to reveal.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Revalation 7:9,10 KJV

That of course does not preclude those who say differently as a result of misunderstanding or possibly some other reason.

God blesses!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

But I was in fact saying that humans, christian humans, are the ones saying this.

As a Christian human, may I suggest that the few there be that find the Way, is a comparative number as per this scripture appears to reveal.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Revalation 7:9,10 KJV

That of course does not preclude those who say differently as a result of misunderstanding or possibly some other reason.

God blesses!

See there you go - someone finding beauty in the freakiest part of the whole Bible.

[phkrause]

See there you go - someone finding beauty in the freakiest part of the whole Bible.

Freaky? I actually love Revelation. Its got some of the best scene's of what's gonna happen at the end. And how God will finally end the misery that Satan started.

[NJK Project]

Quote:

Bravus: God is 'not willing that any should perish'. Jesus says to go out to the highways and byways and *compel* them to come in. This God you portray creating layers and layers of tests designed to keep as many as possible *out* of the Kingdom is a flawed human creation unrelated to the God who made the ultimate sacrifice to save as many as possible.

NJK: Bravus, before you can presume to pass any judgement, you first will need to learn how to properly read, comprehend exegete the Biblical text, since it is you are the one who has...

Overaged: Actually; Bravus has done no different than you have here. he has quoted or referred directly to several Bible texts in order to portray how he sees the many examples here of innapropriate scripture-whipping theology being touted as "truth."

Overaged: The kind of God that our friend Bravus describes as seeing here is not his being "judgmental;" it is simply Bravus, saying what he sees here. It is not wrong for Bravus to do this; and I am afraid to say also; that I agree with him. Jesus actually does say to go out to the highways and byways and *compel* them to come in. There's nothing any of us can do about that except to obey our Lord. We could, I suppose, choose to stay on this forum, and fill it full of acusations against those who quote the words of Jesus.

Overaged, (1) I would (logically) let Bravus speak for himself, particularly as to what he meant by citing those passage because your assumption actually prove nothing and (2) the incontrovertible exegetical truth is as I have contextually shown what the full implication of those passage is. Your proof-texting also proves nothing truthful, but is mere fanciful preference. Biblical Truth is not determine by personal preferences.

[NJK Project]

Some short answers to the what else has been posted here since my last posting:

-the Bible exegetically speaks of “choice ones” and not “chosen ones”. SO the quality of being a choice person resides in the individual themselves, i.e., how they have freely developed their character. And so Jesus is lamenting in Matt 22:14 that by that third call in the highways and byways, the “choice ones” (those of the first two calls) are few. In his day that was the difference seen between Jews and Gentiles. In many respect, the Gentiles were much more work than the Jews who Jesus was initially working to save, as the Gentiles were entrenched in pure paganism

-So, as proper exegesis reveals, as usual, there is no issue of “free will” in that Matt 22:14 statement, contrary to popular/common assumptions. See generally more on thistopic of ‘God and the Future’, and also “free will” here.

-While God expects and plans for his Truth to have a Triumphant ending, resulting in ‘an innumerable Great Multitude’ accepting that message, prior to that, as with the 12 then 120 who first started the Christian work, few will find and accept that call (=the (comparatively smaller) 144,000). Other then saved will do so through a repenting experience at the preaching of the 144,000. The Bible and Jesus is clear that, especially initially, the righteous ones will be few, and then when the full harvest (i.e., including the Great Multitude) is accomplished, it will more likely still be much smaller than the wicked of the earth and history for: ‘the way of Christ is indeed narrow and (furthermore) few are those who find it.’

-Funny but it spiritually is actually when one does not understand Christ Full Gospel message that they only (can) see “freaky and scary things” in Revelation, starting with the description in Rev 1:13-18. I guess that is all why Jesus had such prophetic messages so “signified”, so that only the purified and wise believers would understand it (Dan 12:10).

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I guess that is all why Jesus had such prophetic messages so “signified”, so that only the purified and wise believers would understand it.

Obfusification to suite ones own purpose!!!!!

Error-error!!!!!

The H*S, if one believes in a the Trinity, is a quide to understanding. There are no exclusions, gospel is for all. PERIOD!!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

but is mere fanciful preference. Biblical Truth is not determine by personal preferences.

I prefer this fanciful Word.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."Isaiah 55:11 KJV

Or two. Notice it doesn't say "Word" or "it" in the plural.

"But Jesus said, “It is written..., ‘Man is to live by every (single) word that God speaks.’"Matthew 4:4 NLV Parenthesis mine LHC

Those who do not hear God speaking to them in an isolated text are like a person on a journey who does not turn at the road where the sign post is because there are not two sign posts at the intersection where he/she needs to turn.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

But of course, how much more assurance was revealed when observing another signpost right next to the first. The second sign post did not change the meaning of the first, only added to my understanding.

Which reminds me that in the Jewish culture of Jesus' day, there was no direct translation or understanding of either/or, but only of and/and.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to say it is guilty. He sent His Son so the world might be saved from the punishment of sin by Him."John 3:17 NLV

God blesses!

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

See there you go - someone finding beauty in the freakiest part of the whole Bible.

Freaky? I actually love Revelation. Its got some of the best scene's of what's gonna happen at the end. And how God will finally end the misery that Satan started.

It certainly has its share of doom and gloom and destruction though.

But there is what I was saying. You, a gentle kind man from what I can tell, finds beauty in it. That is awesome.

[Bravus]

I'm quite happy to have Overaged speak for me in this instance.

The overwhelming confidence in a 1:1 correspondence between one's own interpretations and Truth is a terrible, probably terminal, illness.

[Overaged]

Overaged, (1) I would (logically) let Bravus speak for himself, particularly as to what he meant by citing those passage because your assumption actually prove nothing and (2) the incontrovertible exegetical truth is as I have contextually shown what the full implication of those passage is. Your proof-texting also proves nothing truthful, but is mere fanciful preference. Biblical Truth is not determine by personal preferences.

Well; I guess Bravus disagrees with you on that note; but I would add that Jesus never once mentioned "exegetical" truth. He always, and only mentioned "truth." 80% of alleged "exegesis" is really "eisegesis."

[NJK Project]

Quote:

NJK Project: I guess that is all why Jesus had such prophetic messages so “signified”, so that only the purified and wise believers would understand it.

CoAspen: Obfusification to suite ones own purpose!!!!!

Error-error!!!!!

The H*S, if one believes in a the Trinity, is a quide to understanding. There are no exclusions, gospel is for all. PERIOD!!!

Wow CoAspen... Seriously!!! Manifestly I may be “missing”, or better stated, wrongly assuming, something about you here??? And/Or is it that you are just mindlessly quibbling for any excuse to oppose me??!

The Bible is quite clear on this wise/purified vs. unwise/impure issue. Study also the issue of the necessary Latter Rain preparations....or read e.g., Acts 5:32; LDE 194.1-196.1- all related to the understanding of the teaching on the Unpardonable Sin. Look it up and study it.

And if that is all not enough, then try understanding this Bible text logic:

-Unlike the endtime prophecies in Daniel, the prophecies are not even sealed (Rev 22:10; Dan 12:4, 9), yet the wicked in the end will do just as the wicked before then (Rev 22:11; Dan 12:3, 10)....

-Therefore: either they (a) will know what the book of revelation is teaching and ignore it or ( they won’t know although it can easily be read by them. At the very least common sense and rational logic resoundingly answers option (

Ergo: the quite obviously “signified” prophecies of Revelation

And technically, I was not even referring to the “gospel” per se. The prophecies of revelation is not “the gospel” it is simply built upon/derived from it. And so again, as I said, one needs to truly and fully understand the Gospel to ever begin to truly and fully get the “signified” (Rev 1:1) prophesies of the Bible. (Do an exegetical word study on that “signified” word.)

So, quite evidently, non-declaratorily applicable in your case: “deception-deception” and that to excuse and appease yourself!!!

And...self-“obfuscatingly” enough, as per your: “The H*S, if one believes in a the Trinity, is a quide to understanding. There are no exclusions, gospel is for all. PERIOD!!!” claim: even non-spiritual, straightforward logic sees from such a claim that: If does not believe in the Trinity, then they cannot have the Holy Spirit, and thus cannot be guided to believe the Gospel, for the Holy Spirit is the capping and advancing Aid for Christ’s Gospel (John 15:26-16:15)

[NJK Project]

Quote:

but is mere fanciful preference. Biblical Truth is not determine by personal preferences.

I prefer this fanciful Word.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."Isaiah 55:11 KJV

Or two. Notice it doesn't say "Word" or "it" in the plural.

"But Jesus said, “It is written..., ‘Man is to live by every (single) word that God speaks.’"Matthew 4:4 NLV Parenthesis mine LHC

Those who do not hear God speaking to them in an isolated text are like a person on a journey who does not turn at the road where the sign post is because there are not two sign posts at the intersection where he/she needs to turn.

God blesses!

The key in all of this is making our “fancy” God’s own (DA ???.? - can’t presently relocate quite which says that ‘then such a “spiritually in tune” person’s every act will be a simple outworking of the Spirit according to God’s’), and that is found by closely study and heeding his “every (“accurately handled”) word” (1 Tim 2:15))

[NJK Project]

But of course, how much more assurance was revealed when observing another signpost right next to the first. The second sign post did not change the meaning of the first, only added to my understanding.

Which reminds me that in the Jewish culture of Jesus' day, there was no direct translation or understanding of either/or, but only of and/and.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to say it is guilty. He sent His Son so the world might be saved from the punishment of sin by Him."John 3:17 NLV

God blesses!

Speaking to the general/background context that supporting text, the key and operative word here is “might”...I.e., God’s thus wants to save all...but does everyone also want...according to God’s terms.

[NJK Project]

I'm quite happy to have Overaged speak for me in this instance.

The overwhelming confidence in a 1:1 correspondence between one's own interpretations and Truth is a terrible, probably terminal, illness.

That’s quite an “overwhelmingly confident” absolute claim...When one is dealing with, especially a objectively and transparently, provable and demonstrable truth, then the manifestation of a “terminal illness” is to then not have overwhelming confidence. That is how those who take the Mark of the Beast in the end will be condemned.... (2 Thess 2:10-12) I.e., because they will have seen the clear Truth but will choose not believe it, but would still be much preferring, if God then let them to, at the very least, be “straddling the fence”. Moreover, do a Bible word study on the word “confidence” in merely the English text (NASB recommended) to see what “overwhelming confidence” God wants us to attain in His word.

In fact, as my blog post studies show e.g,. here and here on Revelation’s 7 Trumpets & Plagues, it is to such an ascertained and demonstrable “overwhelming confidence” in God’s word that one can see that those prophecies can have/have had multiple (spiritually similar) fulfillments.

[NJK Project]

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Overaged, (1) I would (logically) let Bravus speak for himself, particularly as to what he meant by citing those passage because your assumption actually prove nothing and (2) the incontrovertible exegetical truth is as I have contextually shown what the full implication of those passage is. Your proof-texting also proves nothing truthful, but is mere fanciful preference. Biblical Truth is not determine by personal preferences.

Well; I guess Bravus disagrees with you on that note; but I would add that Jesus never once mentioned "exegetical" truth. He always, and only mentioned "truth." 80% of alleged "exegesis" is really "eisegesis."

Well...not surprised...expected it...your still both, factually and transparently, “exegetically wrong”....And there then/now actually is no need to “guess”!!

...And do, at least now, realistically think through the latter part of your claim: Why would Jesus need our full type of Exegesis, He was a Jew, lived in a Jewish culture, lived the events we study about and knew his minds thoughts, as well as that of others, probably spoke Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, etc. Yet he still involved necessary “exegesis” when expounding the OT Scriptures (e.g., Luke 24:27 and his many public/oral discussion with Jewish leaders), and even at a quite technical level. E.g., compare his slightly, but most significant expressed understanding of Psa 110:1 (both the Hebrew Text and LXX) in Matt 22:44 (see NT Greek). I.e., “footstool” does not strictly mean the same as “under your feet”.

What is the documented evidence for you 80% claim, or is this, as it strongly seems, mere fanciful wishfulness?

[Tom Wetmore]

The fervor and defensiveness with which you seem to be approaching this topic seems more on the order of someone defending their own personal ideas. It reads like something from one taking this as a personal attack, or as one that does "protest too much, methinks".

[phkrause]

The fervor and defensiveness with which you seem to be approaching this topic seems more on the order of someone defending their own personal ideas. It reads like something from one taking this as a personal attack, or as one that does "protest too much, methinks".

methinks I agree Tom.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

The fervor and defensiveness with which you seem to be approaching this topic seems more on the order of someone defending their own personal ideas. It reads like something from one taking this as a personal attack, or as one that does "protest too much, methinks".

methinks I agree Tom.

[Bravus]

Moreover, do a Bible word study on the word “confidence” in merely the English text (NASB recommended) to see what “overwhelming confidence” God wants us to attain in His word.

I did that, and here's what I found:

"Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."

Got the second one down, I'll give ya that...

[NJK Project]

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Moreover, do a Bible word study on the word “confidence” in merely the English text (NASB recommended) to see what “overwhelming confidence” God wants us to attain in His word.

I did that, and here's what I found:

"Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."

Got the second one down, I'll give ya that...

a) That Hebrew word translated as “confidence” by the KJV in Isa 30:15, Strongs #0985 is related to #0983 and speaks of something that is “secure”. Therefore it indeed proves my point which involves “securely” ascertaining what the exegetical meaning of a passage is. But the likes of you Bravus “would not” preferring fanciful and context-divorced “proof texting” interpretive and applicational claims...

also try some NT texts which use “confidence” NASB.

c) In regards to your also “prooftexting” quietness quip, as the context indicates, along the line of what I said before: ‘there is only “True Peace” in rock solid Biblical Truth.’ (Ezek 13).

So: no thanks, for it actually is exegetically "all or nothing" for me!!

[NJK Project]

The fervor and defensiveness with which you seem to be approaching this topic seems more on the order of someone defending their own personal ideas. It reads like something from one taking this as a personal attack, or as one that does "protest too much, methinks".

Just staunchly defending the gems of Biblical Truth...won’t begin to apologize or feel “shamed” by your spurious and insubstantive scoffing comments... (=Psa 1)

You’d think a moderator in an SDA Forum would have some spiritual discernment. Must all be the “club” atmosphere.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

sort of sounds like someone's got his shoe off, a la Nikita Khrushchev...

I'm not even going to post the "Back to Topic" smilie... this topic has gone from wondering why people begin to follow self-proclaimed prophets, to a pathetic hoisting of one's own petards..