What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?

[Reddogs]

What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? Was it something Job did or something God saw in Job?

Do we have any of Gods image from Creation that allows us to become "blameless" and "upright" before God, or did sin destroy that and God always have to fill us with His goodness in order for us to reach it just like Job did.

Job 1

Prologue

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil......

Job's First Test

6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." 8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

[Robert]

Job's claim:

Job 31:5 "let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless...."

BTW, what was Saul the Pharisee's claim before becoming Saul the great champion of righteousness by faith:

"As to righteousness under the law blameless." [Phil 3:6]

So Job claimed to be "blameless"! Well, something happened between his claim and the end of the book of Job because towards the end Job states the following:

Job 40:4 “Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth [because he claimed blamelessness]…."

Job 42:6 “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”

[Reddogs]

But it was God that laid it out not Job...

"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

[Robert]

But it was God that laid it out not Job...

"Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

Blameless in God's eyes or blameless in Job's own eyes?

Answer:

"Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, became angry at Job because he justified himself rather than God." [Job 32:2]

[melvin mccarty]

Do you not accept God's assessment of Job's character?

[melvin mccarty]

Many strong men have made false cofessions under torture.

mel

[Robert]

Do you not accept God's assessment of Job's character?

There are two possibilities:

1] God is presenting His view of Job to Satan, or

2] God is presenting Job's own view of himself to Satan.

Remember that Job isn't around. The discussion is between God and Satan.

[phkrause]

I think view #1 is the correct one and the one I would pick. To your original post I would say that what makes Job blameless&upright before God is the fact that no matter what he never once curses God. As his wife keeps begging him to do. I think that God took a chance asking Satan to check Job out.

pkrause

[Robert]

I think view #1 is the correct one and the one I would pick.

But it contradicts the rest of the book of Job!

Job 1:8 God speaking: “Have you (Satan) considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Job 31:4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless...."

You must remember that Job doesn't know of what God said to Satan, yet we see that Job states the same.

Job 32:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu [a 4th man] son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

After Job’s three friends quit arguing with him, a fourth man steps in – Elihu. He asks Job, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV) Elihu has put his finger on an important point. He isn’t trying to convince Job that his problem is sin, as did the other three friends. He is trying to convince Job that his problem is self-righteousness. And he continues this argument until chapter 38, when God steps in at last to settle the matter:

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?"

What were Job's words spoken without knowledge? "I am blameless"!

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile [what happened to being blameless?]; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

God’s words silenced Job’s pretensions to righteousness. Job’s problem was self-righteousness. Job was so focused all the good things he did and the lack of sinful things in his life the he couldn’t recognize the source of his righteousness was self rather than God. But when he came face to face with God, he admitted, “I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know....Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6, NKJV)

[phkrause]

Because that is his own opinion of himself. As long as God says he's blameless he is blameless.

pkrause

[Robert]

Because that is his own opinion of himself. As long as God says he's blameless he is blameless.

pkrause

Then why repent? Wouldn't God have said, "No, no need to repent - you're blameless"?

Rob

[phkrause]

Yes but being blameless doesn't mean that he wasn't a sinner.

pkrause

[Robert]

Yes but being blameless doesn't mean that he wasn't a sinner.

pkrause

Really?

Saul, before he became Paul, stated the following: "As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:6]

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

AA 190

"Before his conversion Paul had regarded himself as blameless "touching the righteousness which is in the law." Philippians 3:6. But since his change of heart he had gained a clear conception of the mission of the Saviour as the Redeemer of the entire race, Gentile as well as Jew, and had learned the difference between a living faith and a dead formalism."

[John317]

What was the main difference between Noah and the rest of the people of his day? What did God see in Noah that He didn't see in the other people? Check out Genesis 6: 9, 22; 7:1,5.

It says that "Noah was a just man, perfect in his generation. Noah walked with God." Verse 22, "According to all that God commanded him, so he did." 7:1: "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation."

Does that mean Noah was not a sinner? Of course not. It's obviously not talking about earning salvation by keeping the law, yet it is also obvious that Noah would not have been saved if he had been disobeying God like all the rest of the world at that time.

Luke 1: 6 shows the same thing with regard to John the Baptizer's parents: "They were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

The testimony of Scripture is that Noah and John's parents were not practicing deliberate sin but were, rather, practicing righteousness and justice because of their relationship with God. We find the same thing said about believers in Romans 8: 3,4; Rev. 12: 17; 14: 12.

[Robert]

What was the main difference between Noah and the rest of the people of his day? What did God see in Noah that He didn't see in the other people? Check out Genesis 6: 9, 22; 7:1,5.

Did I miss something? Noah is not the subject...Job is! Job had a problem - it is called "self-righteousness". Do you know what that is? It's the flesh (human nature) outwardly acting good, but it is a lie. Why? The flesh can't be good. Yes, outwardly it can resemble goodness, but it is centered in I-ism and ego...the essence of all sin.

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

"Before his conversion Paul had regarded himself as blameless "touching the righteousness which is in the law." Philippians 3:6. But since his change of heart he had gained a clear conception of the mission of the Saviour as the Redeemer of the entire race, Gentile as well as Jew, and had learned the difference between a living faith and a dead formalism."

Here's more:

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"—as far as outward acts were concerned –he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.

Job had the same problem, but before Christ....

[Woody]

Yes, I think the record is clear. Job was a l-ist.

[Robert]

Once again, a review:

Job 1:8 God speaking: “Have you (Satan) considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Job 31:4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless...."

Job 32:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu [a 4th man] son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God. 3 He was also angry with the three friends, because they had found no way to refute Job, and yet had condemned him.

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?"

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile [what happened to being blameless?]; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

“I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know....Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6, NKJV)

Clearly, Job had a problem. God did not view Job as blameless. He (God) was merely expressing Job's view of himself. That is very, very clear.

Rob

[Robert]

Yes, I think the record is clear. Job was a l-ist.

Notice what Job says in chapter 23:

“My foot has held fast to His steps; I have kept His way and not turned aside. I have not departed from the commandment of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food’” (verses 11,12 NKJV)

Does this sound like a man who has been justified by faith? Or does it sound like a man who is confident of his own righteousness, who is self-righteous?

By chapter 31, Job is strongly defending his own righteousness. He calls upon God to judge him:

...let God weigh me in just scales and he will know that I am blameless (Verse 6).

He goes onto list the good works he has habitually done – fed the hungry, clothed the naked, cared for orphans and widows, and opened his home to the homeless.

This was Job’s problem – he was righteous in his own eyes. He was sincere; he was honest. But he had a problem he didn’t recognize.

Ellen White:

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright [blameless], that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; [how so?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29]

[skyblue888]

I thought I had responded to this question. Looks like my post was deleted!!! I don't see why it should have been and yet i can't find it!!! Any thought?

As to Job being accused of being a self-righteous man, that coudn't be further from the truth. Only by misunderstanding the book of Job could one draw such a conclusion.

"Job was sorely afflicted, and his friends sought to make him acknowledge that his suffering was the result of sin (self-righteousness), and cause him to feel under condemnation. They represented his case as that of a great sinner; but the Lord rebuked them for their judgment of His faithful servant." E.G. White, Bible Commmentary, Vol.3,p.1140.

"The disciples of Christ could not understand the mystery of His mission no more than the friends of Job could understand his humiliation and suffering." Desire of Ages, p.88.

"Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness, says the Lord God." "Their righteousness is of Me." Ezekiel 14:14; Isaiah 54:17.

"There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of action. Job is brought distinctly before us as a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to comfort him, but they tried to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are ye all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and deserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.3, p.1140.

Job was a righteous man. His righteousness was from the Lord and Christ's righteousness always leads to repentance, from repentance to repentance.

"At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen." C.O.L.162.

sky

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What was the main difference between Noah and the rest of the people of his day? What did God see in Noah that He didn't see in the other people? Check out Genesis 6: 9, 22; 7:1,5.

Did I miss something? Noah is not the subject...Job is! Job had a problem - it is called "self-righteousness". Do you know what that is? It's the flesh (human nature) outwardly acting good, but it is a lie. Why? The flesh can't be good. Yes, outwardly it can resemble goodness, but it is centered in I-ism and ego...the essence of all sin.

Rob

The question is not whether Job was a sinful human being. We know he was sinful and Job was also very well aware that he was sinful (see Job 7: 20, 21). The question, then, is whether Job was a righteous man. The Bible very plainly says that Job was righteous. If he wasn't, then the book fails in one of its primary themes, which is to explain why God allows righteous people to suffer.

Are we saying, then,-- and does the book teach-- that Job was sinless and had no need of forgiveness? No, of course not.

To say that Job was a righteous man is not to say that Job was perfectly righteous before the law of God, nor is it saying that Job was earning salvation by works of the law. God is not lying, nor is He simply giving Job's mistaken viewpoint, when He calls Job "a perfect and upright man, one who fears God, and shuns evil." Job was indeed all of these, and God had confidence in Job. When tested, God knew that Job's faith would grow even stronger. And Job did not let God down.

To say that Job was "blameless" does not mean Job was sinless or that he had no need of God's forgiveness. Remember that Paul says that deacons are to be "blameless," yet it obviously does not mean deacons must be without sin (compare 1 Tim. 3: 10; Titus 1:6,7; and 1 John 1: 8-10).

[skyblue888]

i was able to retrieve my post. Here it is.

QUOTE

> I was reading Job in studying for the lesson one day and as I

came across the first chapter, and first verse it dawned on me that

Job wasnt sinless but was called "blameless" and "upright". What made

Job "blameless" and "upright" before God? Was it from faith and his

belief in God that he is called this or because he did what

was 'right before God', or is it like Justifcation/ Sanctification,

that one gives birth to the other?

>

> ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ******

>

> dear brother or sister, by reading Job 23:11,12, we get a pretty

good glimpse of the secret of his life of victory.

>

> "My foot kept His way and not turned aside. I have not departed

from the commandment of His lips; I have treasured the words of His

mouth more than my necessary food."

>

> The Psalmist said, "The law of Your mouth is better to me than

thousands of skekels of gold and silver." 119:72. "I will run in the

way of Your commandments. " Ps.119:32.

>

> The secret is to receive the law which was engraved on stones and

later written with ink as the voice of God speaking to the soul in

promise. "Receive, I pray thee, the law from His mouth." Job 22:22.

>

> "The ten precepts of the greatest love ever presented to men is the

voice of God speaking to the soul in promise. There is not a negative

in that law although it may appear thus." E.G. White, 1 B.C.1105.

>

> The voice of God imparts power, it begets life! Every command that

proceeds out of the mouth of God is the promise of the Spirit to

fulfill every jot and tittle of what is expressed in that

commandment. Received as such it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit!

Notice the following:

>

> "The word of God is the seed. Every seed has in itself a

germinating principle. In it the life of the plant is enfolded. So

there is life in God's word. Christ says, 'The words that I SPEAK

unto you, they are Spirit and they are life.' John 6:63. In every

command and in every promise of the word of God is the power, the

very life of God, by which the command may be fulfilled and the

promise realized. He who by faith receives the word is receiving the

very life and character of God." Christ's Object Lessons, p.38.

>

> The Lord says, "My word shall accomplish that which I please"

(Isa.55:11) in the lives of those who are willing to be as submissive

to My voice as is the inanimate creation.

>

> "Only he who receives the Scriptures as the voice of God speaking

to himself is a true learner." C.O.L.59.

>

> "He awakens me morning by morning. He awakens my ear, to hear as

the learned. The Lord God has opened my ear." Isaiah 50:4,5.

>

> "Incline your ear, come to Me, hear, and your soul shall live."

Isaiah 55:3.

>

> On account of the merits of His infinite sacrifice the Lord has

earned every right in the controversy between Him and Satan to speak

to us wonderful words of life, even life everlasting. "I know that

His commandment is everlasting life." John 12:50.

>

> Please read Isaiah 48:18 and Psalm 119:93,50.

>

> Hope this helped somewhat!

>

> sky

[skyblue888]

The only true faith which works is the faith that comes by hearing the voice of God speaking to us in the Scriptures, expecting that word to do what it says and depending upon that word and that word only to accomplish what is expressed in that word. "My word shall accomplish that which I please." Isaiah 55;11. "When you received the word which you heard from us, you did not receive it as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God which effectively works in you that believe." 1 Thess.2;13.

We must rely wholly upon "the word of His grace." Acts 20:32. The apostle Paul speaks of "the Gospel of the grace of God." verse 24. "And now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified." Notice these words: "By the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all (other apostles) , yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." 1 Cor.15:10.

In 1 Timothy 1:14 the same apostle Paul says, "And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." The apostle Paul had "the true grace," (1 Peter 5:12) that is, "the grace that brings salvation to all men". Titus 2:11. This grace is immediately with all and upon all who submit to the commandment of the everlasting God: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Romans 16:24,25. This is "the preaching of Jesus Christ" "for obedience to the faith." 24-26. This commandment is repeated throughout Paul's letters and is even the last verse of the Bible!

What the apostle Paul is saying is this: The same voice that called the worlds into existence, that said to the earth, "Bring forth grass" and it was so, is the same voice that speaks to us in the Scriptures. To all who are hungering and thirsting for salvation, the word of God to them is, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all." "Grace be with you." Col.4:18. The moment we submit to the voice of God, the grace of Jesus Christ, that brings salvation, is immediately with us just as it was with the apostle Paul to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character. 1 Cor.15:10. This is "the true grace" which is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Peter 5:12; 1 Tim.1:14.

Too many of us, as Mrs. White pointed out, have made the mistake of imagining that we were on probation and that we had to prove to the Lord that we were reformed before we could claim this blessing. She writes, "These dear souls may claim the blessing even now." Faith and Works, p.38. "Behold, now is the accepted time! Now is the day of salvation!" 2 Cor.6:2. "They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities or they cannot form a Christian character." Ibid, p.38.

Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness need not wait one moment that they themselves may blot out their own sins. "They need not wait until they have made a suitable repentance" (F.W.64) before they may take hold of the grace (righteousness) of God which is in Christ Jesus. The Lord Himself has given the command:

"Grace be with you." Col.4:18. Amen!

This is "the word of His grace" which is able to build you up into an habitation of God through the Spirit and to deliver you from every evil work and to preserve you for His heavenly kingdom. See 2 Timothy 4:22,18. And this grace which is thus imparted is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God! To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen!" Revelation 22:21.

sky

p.s. Every one of the ten commandments as spoken by Christ on Sinai or any other commandment found in the Scriptures which concerns our spiritual life, is the word of His grace to us. "It is through these promises (every command is a promise) that He imparts to us His grace and power." Ministry of Healing, p.122; 1 B.C.1105.

"Grant me Thy law graciously." Psalm 119:29. Every commandment proceeding out of the mouth of God is full of grace and truth.

God bless,

sky

"In Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love." Gal. 5:6.

With those who were in mind when this Scripture was originally written, circumcision was everything, and it was everything simply because of what it represented. And what circumcision represented to those people was works and works only. It was the greatest of all works--greater than creation itself--because, as the rabbis put it, "So great is circumcision, that but for it the Holy One, blessed be He, would not have created the world." "It is as great as all the other commandments," "equivalent to all the commandments of the law." --Farrar's "Life of Paul," chapter 22, para. 5, note; chapter 35, para 4, note.

Yet this which to them was so great, the Lord sweeps away, as with a blast, in the words, "Circumcision is nothing," and in Christ Jesus, circumcision avails nothing. And, in view of what circumcision meant to them, this was simply to say that works are nothing and in Christ Jesus works avail nothing.

Then to all the others who, in view of this, might be inclined to boast in their lack of works and thus excuse sin, the word is given with equal force: "And uncircumcision is nothing." "In Jesus Christ neither circumcision (works) nor uncircumcision (absence of works) availeth anything," which, in its connection, was simply to say that in Christ Jesus works or the absence of works is nothing and avails nothing.

So then works are nothing and the absence of works is nothing. In Christ Jesus neither works nor the lack of works avails anything.

This word of the Lord, therefore, utterly and forever excludes both classes from all merit and from all ground of merit in themselves or in anything they ever did or did not do.

And this is all as true today as ever. Today, whether persons are out of Christ or in Christ, neither works nor no works avail anything. For it is written: "Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners. Your birth, your reputation, your wealth, your talents, your virtues, your piety, your philanthropy, or anything else in you or connected with you, will not form a bond of union between your soul and Christ." --Testimony for the Church, No. 31, pages 44, 45.

What then? Is everybody left in utter emptiness? No, no! Thank the Lord there is something which avails for all and avails forever. Though it be the everlasting truth that in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, neither works nor no works avail anything; yet it is also the eternal truth that in Jesus Christ "Faith which works" does avail. Gal.5:6.

Notice that it is not faith and works that avail; it is "faith WHICH works." It is faith which itself is able to work and does work--it is this and this alone that avails for anybody anywhere at any time.

Faith is only of God and working; it works only the works of God. Thus he who, in Christ Jesus, has the "faith which works," has that which avails to show God manifest in the flesh, working the works of God. And thus "this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." 1 Thess.2:13.

And so, while you are in Christ, "If there is any good in you, it is wholly attributable to the mercy of the compassionate Saviour. Your connection with the church, the manner in which your brethren regard you, will be of no avail unless you believe in Christ. It is not enough to believe about Him; you must believe in Him. You must rely wholly upon His saving grace." --Id., pages 44, 45. A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith.

[John317]

... God did not view Job as blameless. He (God) was merely expressing Job's view of himself. That is very, very clear...

In the very first verse of the book, the narrator himself also informs us that Job is "perfect and upright." It is obvious that the narrator is not being ironic but is straightforward. The Holy Spirit inspired Moses to describe Job in this way.

You apparently misunderstand the meaning of "blameless." Compare its use elsewhere: Gen. 6: 9; 17: 1; Deut. 18: 13. Check it out in the lexical aids. It refers to Job's "wholeness" toward God; that is, it tells us that Job had integrity. It doesn't mean Job was without sin.