What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?

[Robert]

From the book Laodicea:

...Let’s look at another case study of repentance from self-righteousness. This one may create a bit of a problem in your mind, because I want to give a nontraditional interpretation to a familiar person in the Bible. Let’s look at the story of a man who appears in the oldest book of the Bible – the book of Job.

I’ve wrestled with the book of Job for a long time. I could never see why God allowed Satan to mistreat Job so badly and why Job had to go through all those terrible crises without any purpose other than to prove to Satan that God was right. To me, that didn’t seem to be enough; the whole story somehow didn’t seem to fit with what I knew of God’s character. Then one day I was reading The Desire of Ages, and I came across these words: “The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy” (471). But Ellen White didn’t say exactly what that merciful purpose was in Job’s case. The only way I could find out was to read and study and wrestle with the book of Job for myself.

When I began studying the book closely, I discovered that Job himself had a problem. At first, it was hard to accept what I was learning, because it completely contradicted what I had always understood about Job. I had always had the picture that we get from the very first verse of the book. It say that Job, “was blameless and upright, and one who feared god and shunned evil" (Job 1:1, NKJV). This description of Job is repeated in verse 8 when God is having a dialogue with Satan. “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears god and shuns evil?” (NKJV)

And Satan replies, “Yes, but he does all this because You have built a hedge around him. Remove Your protection, and give him into my hands. You’ll see what he will do then. He will deny You and reject You. He will turn his back on You” (see verses 9-11).

So God said, “You can have him. Everything he possesses is in your power, but you can’t touch his body. You can’t kill him.” Immediately, Satan set out to destroy everything Job had – including his children (see verses 13-19). How would you react after losing your children and everything you owned? Job “tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshipped”. And he said, “naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return there. The Lord gave and the lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the lord.” (Verses 20,21, NKJV).

Job didn’t turn his back on God. He was righteous person. But this is the crucial question: Was his righteousness the righteousness of faith, or was it the righteousness of works? We need to look closely at his experience in order to determine the answer to this question, because I believe we will find in Job’s story similarities to your own situation as Laodicea.

In chapter 2, God and Satan have a second conversation regarding Job. Satan says to God, “All right, Job hasn’t rejected You yet. But let me touch him – not just his possessions or his children. Let me get his own body in my hands, he will deny You then!” And God replied, “Go ahead. He is in you hands, but you can’t kill him.”

Satan caused Job to break out in terrible boils from head to foot. At this point, Job’s wife had had enough. “Do you still hold to YOUR integrity?” she asked. “’Curse God and die!’” (Job 2:9, NKJV, emphasis supplied). But Job didn’t listen. “In all this Job did not sin with his lips” (verse 10, NKJV).

Three new characters enter the story, the so-called friends of Job – Eliphaz, Bidad, and Zophar. The arguments of these “comforters” are typical of the Eastern mentality regarding human suffering. All through the book, they are arguing that Job’s intense sufferings are the result of some secret sin in his life. “You wouldn’t be in the condition, Job, if there wasn’t something wrong in your spiritual life. God wouldn’t be punishing you like this otherwise.”

Does God punish us like that? Does He cause us to suffer physically for our sins? No. We need to remember that the arguments of Job’s friends are based oh human reasoning, not biblical truth. That is why God rebukes them in the end. They were misrepresenting His character. But the important element in this story is Job’s reaction to all this. He doesn’t reject their reasoning regarding punishment for sin, but instead he defends his righteousness. That is why Job is so puzzled. Like his friends, he, too, believes that the wicked will suffer and the righteous prospers in this life. Yet he is suffering in spite of being righteous! That is what Job cannot understand.

“Teach me, and I will hold my tongue, cause me to understand where in I have erred.’”…He defends his righteousness before his friends. He is saying, “Where have I gone wrong” Show me what sin you are accusing me of. I am blameless, even though I am suffering.”

By the time we reach chapter 10, Job is defending his righteousness to God Himself. “I will say to God, ‘Do not condemn me; show me why You contend with me….You know that I am not wicked.’” Actually, Job is quite confident that his righteousness is perfect. “God,” Job says, “these friends of mine are accusing me of some secret sin. Show me where I am wrong. I would really like to know what my sin is.” Of course, Job was convinced of his righteousness; he didn’t think he was guilty of sin.

Was there some secrete sin in Job’s life that was the cause of his suffering? No. But did Job have a problem? Yes.

Job continues to insist on his own righteousness and to defend himself against the accusations of his friends. They keep saying, “Job, you must have some secret sin in your life; look how you’re suffering.”

And Job argues back, “No, I have not sinned. I have kept God’s commandments; I have held to my integrity.” Notice what he says in chapter 23. “My foot has held fast to His steps; I have kept His way and not turned aside. I have not departed from the commandment of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food’” (verses 11,12 NKJV)

Does this sound like a man who has been justified by faith? Or does it sound like a man who is confident of his own righteousness, who is self-righteous?

By chapter 31, Job is strongly defending his own righteousness. He calls upon God to judge him. ”Let me be weighed in a just balance, that God may know my integrity.” (Verse 6, NKJV). He goes onto list the good works he has habitually done – fed the hungry, clothed the naked, cared for orphans and widows, and opened his home to the homeless. This chapter is Job's final argument against the accusations of his three friends. “So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes” (Job 32:1, NKJV).

This was Job’s problem – he was righteous in his own eyes. He was sincere; he was honest. But he had a problem he didn’t recognize. The book of Job is a historical account of God’s first lesson on righteousness by faith. Let’s see how this is so.

After Job’s three friends quite arguing with him, a fourth man steps in – Elihu. He asks Job, ”Do you think this is right? Do you say, My righteousness is more than God’s?” (Job 35:2, NKJV) Elihu has put his finger on an important point. He isn’t trying to convince Job that his problem is sin, as did the other three friends. He is trying to convince Job that his problem is self-righteousness. And he continues this argument until chapter 38, when God steps in at last to settle the matter.

If you read from chapter 38 to the end of the book, you’ll find that God rebukes Job’s three friends for their mistaken theology. They argued, “Job, you must be a sinner. The fact that you are suffering is proof of sin in your life because God punishes those who do bad things.”….

But God also rebukes Job. “Who is this who darkens counsel by words ("I am blameless") without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.” (Job 38:2,3, NKJV). God rebukes Job for his self-righteous attitude.

And notice that Job repents. ”Then Job answered the Lord and said: Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.” (Job 40:3,4, NKJV) God’s words silenced Job’s pretensions to righteousness. Job’s problem was self-righteousness. His attitude was that of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus saying, “All these things have I kept form my youth up” (Matt 19:20). Job was so focused all the good things he did and the lack of sinful things in his life the he couldn’t recognize the source of his righteousness was self rather than God. But when he came face to face with God, he admitted, “I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know….Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6, NKJV)

What was it that Job had not understood? He had not understood that his self-righteousness was mere filthy rags in God' sight. But when he came face to face with his self-righteous condition, he abhorred himself and repented....

Repentance from self-righteousness is terribly painful because we have to swallow our pride - our spiritual pride. The things we have looked to as evidences of our goodness, we have to see as monuments to self......

God didn't enjoy putting Job through this crisis, but Job had a lesson to learn, and this drastic method was the only way to teach him. When the lesson was complete and Job was fully converted, God was able to bless him....He restored his health, his possessions and his children. [JS]

[Robert]

The Holy Spirit inspired Moses to describe Job in this way.

John, you remind me of someone who can't see the forest for the trees. You must think outside the box of traditionalism...of rigid orthodoxy and fundamentalism.

[Robert]

Nothing about Job...completely off the subject! Context, context, context!

[Robert]

Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, became angry at Job because he justified himself rather than God . [Job 32:2]

Notice God wasn't presenting Job before Satan as "blameless" for Job was too busy justifying himself! Did Job justify himself? Yes:

Job 31:“I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. 2 For what is man’s lot from God above, his heritage from the Almighty on high? 3 Is it not ruin for the wicked, disaster for those who do wrong? 4 Does he not see my ways and count my every step? 5 “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— 6 let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless — 7 if my steps have turned from the path, if my heart has been led by my eyes, or if my hands have been defiled, 8 then may others eat what I have sown, and may my crops be uprooted. 9 “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door, 10 then may my wife grind another man’s grain, and may other men sleep with her. 11 For that would have been shameful, a sin to be judged. 12 It is a fire that burns to Destruction; it would have uprooted my harvest. 13 “If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, 14 what will I do when God confronts me? What will I answer when called to account? 15 Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? 16 “If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary, 17 if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless— 18 but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow— 19 if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, 20 and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, 21 if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, 22 then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. 23 For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things. 24 “If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, ‘You are my security,’ 25 if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained, 26 if I have regarded the sun in its radiance or the moon moving in splendor, 27 so that my heart was secretly enticed and my hand offered them a kiss of homage, 28 then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high. 29 “If I have rejoiced at my enemy’s misfortune or gloated over the trouble that came to him— 30 I have not allowed my mouth to sin by invoking a curse against his life— 31 if the men of my household have never said, ‘Who has not had his fill of Job’s meat?’— 32 but no stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler— 33 if I have concealed my sin as men do, by hiding my guilt in my heart 34 because I so feared the crowd and so dreaded the contempt of the clans that I kept silent and would not go outside 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; like a prince I would approach him.)— 38 “if my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears, 39 if I have devoured its yield without payment or broken the spirit of its tenants, 40 then let briers come up instead of wheat and weeds instead of barley.”

Does this sound like a humble man, a man justified by faith, or does it sound like a braggart?

Look at Paul before He met Jesus:

Phil 3:4 I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. (That is, brag of my attainments and righteousness) If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee…as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. What did Job say? ” I am blameless”….What’s the context of “blameless”? Works…doing good….

After Saul meets Christ we see a different Paul:

Phil 3:7 But what things were gain to me (all the things he listed), those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung (we know what that is), that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him (there’s the “in Christ” motif), not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

And after Job meets God, we see a different Job. Instead of flapping his mouth – instead of bragging of his righteousness, Job covers his mouth and confesses that he is actually “vile” compared to God’s righteousness.

[Woody]

Thanks Robert. That's good insight on Job. I appreciate all that you have written.

[Robert]

Job - by Jack Sequeira

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

What was the main difference between Noah and the rest of the people of his day? What did God see in Noah that He didn't see in the other people? Check out Genesis 6: 9, 22; 7:1,5.

Did I miss something? Noah is not the subject...Job is! Job had a problem - it is called "self-righteousness". Do you know what that is? It's the flesh (human nature) outwardly acting good, but it is a lie. Why? The flesh can't be good. Yes, outwardly it can resemble goodness, but it is centered in I-ism and ego...the essence of all sin.

Rob

If Job is the subject, why then do you bring up Paul?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Job - by Jack Sequeira

"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" by GOD, Job 1:8 ESV

"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him WITHOUT REASON." by GOD, Job 2:3 ESV.

"God is not a man that He should lie." Nu 23:19 ESV.

"...it is impossible for God to lie..." Heb 6:18 ESV.

If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, that would make God a liar. That's impossible.

If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, there would have been good reason for Him to bring harm to Job. God's own testimony was that harm came to Job "WITHOUT REASON."

If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, how then could God brag about Job?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Put yourself in Job's shoes. You are deathly sick, and your friends tell you that you are deathly sick because of sin/s which you know in your heart you are not guilty of, would you not try to justify yourself?

At the end of Job's testing in which he was triumphant, God's testimoney was, to Eliphaz: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, AS MY SERVANT JOB HAS. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. FOR YOU HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF ME WHAT IS RIGHT, AS MY SERVANT JOB HAS." by GOD, Job 42:7-8 ESV

If what God had said 4x were not true about Job, He would have been tellin Job to offer burnt & sin offerings instead of telling his friends that Job would INTERCEDE FOR THEM!!!

Gerry

[melvin mccarty]

I'm with you on this one Gerry. And since the only way that the book makes sense is as an allegory we can make some allowances

mel

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Put yourself in Job's shoes. You are deathly sick, and your friends tell you that you are deathly sick because of sin/s which you know in your heart you are not guilty of, would you not try to justify yourself?

At the end of Job's testing in which he was triumphant, God's testimoney was, to Eliphaz: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, AS MY SERVANT JOB HAS. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. FOR YOU HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF ME WHAT IS RIGHT, AS MY SERVANT JOB HAS." by GOD, Job 42:7-8 ESV

If what God had said 4x were not true about Job, He would have been tellin Job to offer burnt & sin offerings instead of telling his friends that Job would INTERCEDE FOR THEM!!!

Exactly right Gerry, well said.

Norman

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Did I miss something? Noah is not the subject...Job is! Job had a problem - it is called "self-righteousness". Do you know what that is? It's the flesh (human nature) outwardly acting good, but it is a lie. Why? The flesh can't be good. Yes, outwardly it can resemble goodness, but it is centered in I-ism and ego...the essence of all sin.

Rob [/quote']

If Job is the subject, why then do you bring up Paul?

Gerry

Because both of these man shared a common characteristic, self-righteousness. And both of these man repented.

[Robert]

If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, that would make God a liar. That's impossible.

Gerry, God's not lying. He is merely presenting to Satan Job's own view of himself.

[Robert]

Put yourself in Job's shoes. You are deathly sick, and your friends tell you that you are deathly sick because of sin/s which you know in your heart you are not guilty of, would you not try to justify yourself?

At the end of Job's testing in which he was triumphant, God's testimoney was, to Eliphaz: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, AS MY SERVANT JOB HAS. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. FOR YOU HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF ME WHAT IS RIGHT, AS MY SERVANT JOB HAS." by GOD, Job 42:7-8 ESV

If what God had said 4x were not true about Job, He would have been tellin Job to offer burnt & sin offerings instead of telling his friends that Job would INTERCEDE FOR THEM!!!

Gerry

[Robert]

Exactly right Gerry, well said.

Norman

Why then did Job go from justifying himself before 4 men and God himself and then towards the end of the book of Job call himself "vile"?

Why did Job repent if he had no sin?

Why did he cover his mouth and cease stating "I am blameless"?

Rob

[Robert]

I'm with you on this one Gerry. And since the only way that the book makes sense is as an allegory we can make some allowances

mel

But if you wrong it is dead serious! The one sin that will cause a person to be lost is the sin of self-righteousness - the spirit of self-justification! That was Job's problem and I dare say many SDA too!

[melvin mccarty]

The whole purpose of the book seems to be to show that bad things can happen to good people. Are you trying to say that Job deserved what he got? I think you are wrong.

mel

[LifeHiscost]

Because that is his own opinion of himself. As long as God says he's blameless he is blameless.

pkrause

The reason God sees Job as blameless is the same reason that He proclaims any of His children as blameless. Job believed, revealed in the sacrifices of shed blood on the alter, that His sins were cleansed from the record by that shed blood.

"His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each one on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.

When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually." Job 1:4,5 NASB

If it is revealed anywhere in the Word, a reason why these sacrifices were not sufficient to maintain the reality of Job's blamelessness, it would have to be Job's confession that he did not fully believe in the full sufficiency of release through the shed blood of the alter sacrifices that pointed forward to the shed blood of the Lamb of God on the cross.

"For the thing I greatly feared has come upon me,

And what I dreaded has happened to me." Job 3:25 NKJV

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." 1 John 4:18 NASB

"...for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: " Hebrews 10:34-36 NKJV

Regards!

[John317]

You are right, Melvin. Job truly believed God and had faith in Him, and this faith in God made Job different from those who had no such faith. He obeyed God. The same applies to Noah and Abraham. God trusted them in return, and Job did not let God down.

[LifeHiscost]

The testimony of Scripture is that Noah and John's parents were not practicing deliberate sin but were, rather, practicing righteousness and justice because of their relationship with God. We find the same thing said about believers in Romans 8: 3,4; Rev. 12: 17; 14: 12.

#170409 -That's good, John317. It's so simple a child, and only a child of God, can understand it.

Maranatha!

[LifeHiscost]

"At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen." C.O.L.162.

sky

Amen! :Jesusfish:

[LifeHiscost]

“I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know....Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6, NKJV)

Clearly, Job had a problem. God did not view Job as blameless. He (God) was merely expressing Job's view of himself. That is very, very clear.

Rob

Soooo! What you're saying is that Job's conclusions about himself are more to be trusted than God's conclusions about him. re: Robert's post #170436

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Holy Spirit inspired Moses to describe Job in this way.

John, you remind me of someone who can't see the forest for the trees. You must think outside the box of traditionalism...of rigid orthodoxy and fundamentalism.

Apparent meaning, you must be willing to think outside of the Word.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book" Revelation 22:18 NASB

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Corinthians 1:25 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

Job truly believed God and had faith in Him, and this faith in God made Job different from those who had no such faith. He obeyed God.

So? Saul of Tarsus believed in God. And he shared the same view Job had of himself: "As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:6]

God considered Saul faithful because he acted ignorantly in unbelief, but God [Jesus] still had to correct Saul's theology.

1 Tim 1:12 I [Paul] thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me [saul of Tarsus] faithful, putting me into service; 13 even though I [as Saul] was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. And yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief...

So "yes" Job believed in God, but there was something wrong that needed correcting. And it seems that the only way for God to get Job's attention was to partially abandoned him.

What was Job's problem again? It is self-evident for those who are not themselves blinded by their own self-righteousness:

“I [Job] hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go." [Job 27:6 NASB]

"But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite [the 4th man], of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, because he justified himself before God. [Job 32:2 NASB]

And Job repented:

Job 42:3 You [God] asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel [given through Elihu] without knowledge?’ I have uttered what I did not understand [compare Job 27:6 above], things too wonderful for me, which I did not know [i.e., he was ignorant]....6 Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."

Job 40:4 “Behold, I am vile [not blameless]; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth…."

Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine?

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

“I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know....Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:3,6, NKJV)

Clearly, Job had a problem. God did not view Job as blameless. He (God) was merely expressing Job's view of himself. That is very, very clear.

Rob

Soooo! What you're saying is that Job's conclusions about himself are more to be trusted than God's conclusions about him.

That's your assumption that God thought Job was actually a righteous man, but it does not hold water when compared to the whole of the book of Job.

For example, take the following:

Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"

If taken at face value it looks like God causes blindness (among other things).

Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. He knew Lucifer would rebel - He knew the results of Lucifer's system of "self" - yet because of His agape love He allowed Lucifer to develop his system of self-love.

So while Satan is responsible for the creation of sin, God is ultimately responsible for allowing sin to develop and here He assumes the blame until the day of atonement when the blame for sin will be placed upon Satan.