Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted May 18, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Norman Exactly right Gerry, well said. Norman Why then did Job go from justifying himself before 4 men and God himself and then towards the end of the book of Job call himself "vile"? The closer we come to the light, the more visible our imperfections. Blameless is not = perfect in the ultimate sense. Quote: Why did Job repent if he had no sin? It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly. "Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myuself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:3,5,6. What were some of the things he was quick to judge without all having all the information as to why he was suffering? 1. The WHYS. Curses the day of his birth, and asks why he did not die at birth; thereby questioning the purposes of God regarding his life. Is that sin? 2. "For the arrows of the Almighty are in me; my spirit drinks their poison; the terrors of God are arrayed against me." Job 6:4 He thought he was being afflicted BY God for no reason! 3. "Oh that I might have my request, and that God would fulfill my hope, that it would please God to crush me, that he would let loose his hand and cut me off! This would be my comfort; I would even exult in pain unsparing, For I have not denied the words of the Holy One." Job 6:8-10 ESV. He was praying for God to kill him! Quote: Why did he cover his mouth and cease stating "I am blameless"? Rob He committed no sin/s that deserved the calamities and afflictions he suffered. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If what God said TWICE about Job was not true, that would make God a liar. That's impossible. Gerry, God's not lying. He is merely presenting to Satan Job's own view of himself. Do we have an unreliable narrator? Does the narrator, in the very first verse of the book, also present Job's mistaken view of himself? Was Job "blameless and upright" or wasn't he? The narrator says he was. So does God Himself-- twice. Notice that the narrator does not say, "Job THOUGHT HE WAS blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil." The only way the book makes sense is if Job was indeed "blameless and upright." After all, the main theme of the entire book is the suffering of the righteous. If, on the other hand, we say that Job was not righteous except in his own [self-righteous] eyes, we defeat the purpose of the book. That would only be possible if we say that the narrator himself is unreliable and gives us false information. That is, it would necessitate the same kind of narrator as occurs, for example, in The Ox-Bow Incident and in The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. However, there is no evidence that this is the case. Therefore I believe that the narrator is truthful and straightforward, not unreliable, and that Job is exactly what the narrator says he was, "blameless and upright." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Again, for those defending the traditional view of Job, why did Job repent if everything was just fine? ? No one, least of all the narrator, is claiming that Job is absolutely perfect or sinless or that Job could not gain insights from his suffering. There is also nothing in the book to suggest that Job admits the accusation of his "friends" was true, that he was suffering because of some sin that he'd committed. At last God supports Job's truthfulness in what he has said about God. Contrary to what Job's "friends" have been claiming, God has not been punishing Job on account of his sins. When God questions Job, it is not to show that Job is a great sinner and a self-righteous hypocrite. Instead, God asks him where he was when God created the world. In other words, God challenges Job's wisdom and knowledge, not his righteousness or moral character. In his horrific suffering, Job has spoken rashly and hastily about God, and it is Job's realization of his hasty speech that causes him to repent in dust and ashes. This is shown in Job's reply to God in Job 42: 1-6: "THEREFORE I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2008 Excellent post, Gerry. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin mccarty Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 As I mentioned before, Rob, many strong men have made false confessions under torture men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly. Let's see if your answer adds up.... Job repented for speaking "rashly", but not for sinning, right? If speaking "rashly" isn't sin then why repent? By the way, when was the last time you spoke "rashly" and then called yourself "vile" for doing so? So no, your answer is bogus. It doesn't add up. Come on Gerry...you can do better than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 As I mentioned before, Rob, many strong men have made false confessions under torture men Funny...when it came to the four men (of which 3 tried to convince him he cherished some secret sin and the 4th tried to convince him he was self-righteous) he made no such confession even though he was suffering. Sorry, you like Gerry are justifying self-righteousness. I must reject your mistaken theology. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Excellent post, Gerry. You wish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Was Job "blameless and upright" or wasn't he? The narrator says he was. So does God Himself-- twice. Notice that the narrator does not say, "Job THOUGHT HE WAS blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil." Does the Bible always immediately explain everything? No! It requires and open mind...thinking outside the box and not jumping on a few words and making it the end all, be all, of all truth. Again, the forest is obstructing your view of the trees. You need help.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert ? Contrary to what Job's [3'] "friends" have been claiming, God has not been punishing Job on account of his sins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 No one, least of all the narrator, is claiming that Job is absolutely perfect or sinless ... But Job is! Read the dialog: Job 33:8 [Elihu speaking to Job] “Surely you [Job] have spoken in my [Elihu's] hearing, And I [Elihu] have heard the sound of your words: [Now Elihu quotes Job] 9 ‘I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.' 10 ‘Behold, He [God] invents pretexts against me; He counts me as His enemy.' 11 ‘He [God] puts my feet in the stocks; He watches all my paths.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 No one, least of all the narrator, is claiming that Job is absolutely perfect or sinless ... But Job is! Read the dialog: Job 33:8 [Elihu speaking to Job] “Surely you [Job] have spoken in my [Elihu's] hearing, And I [Elihu] have heard the sound of your words: [Now Elihu quotes Job] 9 ‘I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.' 10 ‘Behold, He [God] invents pretexts against me; He counts me as His enemy.' 11 ‘He [God] puts my feet in the stocks; He watches all my paths.’ Here's the context just before Elihu takes over: 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he [Job] was righteous in his own eyes . 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, [why?] because he [Job] justified himself before God . How did Job justify himself? Look God - I haven't done anything wrong - I am blameless - I am righteous. You go ahead and judge me because I am perfect. That's what Job is saying.... 3 And his [Elihu's] anger burned against his three friends [why?] because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. In other words they condemned him even though they couldn't find anything outwardly. On the outside he looked holy, yet they condemned him. "You must have done something because God blesses the righteous, yet you are cursed." That's how they thought. When Elihu takes over he sets out not to prove Job's sins, but to prove his self-righteousness and this he does. But it takes God to open Job's eyes fully. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2008 Job is no more saying he is without sin than "keeping the commandments" refers to people who are without sin. Job is not claiming to be absolutely perfect. (In Job 13: 26; 14: 17; and 7: 20, 21, Job admits he's sinful.) Job is simply denying that he has done anything to deserve the terrible punishment he's been suffering. He says, "I know I am not what I am thought to be" (NEB; 9: 35). He is denying that he is to be counted among "the wicked" (10:15). Job has been loyal to God, and not in order to earn God's favor but because of his faith-based relationship with God. This is brought out many times in the book. It is very important to notice that God Himself never says Job's sins are the reason for his suffering. On the contrary, in asking Job to intercede for his so-called "friends", God provides unquestionable evidence of Job's uprightness and loyalty. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 18, 2008 But to what does God fully open Job's eyes? Does God point out to Job that he is really a wicked man? No, he doesn't. What God opens Job's eyes to is the fact that Job has spoken "words without knowledge" (38:2). Nothing of what God says in chapters 38 to 41 questions Job's uprightness or loyalty to God. What is questioned is Job's grasp of God's omnipotence and wisdom. If Job's problem is self-righteousness, as you suggest, we could expect God to focus on Job's sinfulness, yet God's focus is instead on Job's lack of knowledge of God's power and wisdom. Significantly, this-- rather than Job's sinfulness-- is the subject of God's revelation to Job in the last chapters of the book. It shows that Job's problem is not disloyalty to God. Job's problem in the midst of his suffering is that he does not trust God to distinguish between the righteous and the wicked. It seems to him that not the wicked but rather the righteous are punished. Therefore in the last chapters God opens Job's eyes fully in regard to God's wisdom in order to teach Job to have greater trust in Him even in the midst of incomprehensible suffering. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin mccarty Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 If we would just all concede tha the story is an allegory it would solve our problems. :-) mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2008 ... Why call himself "vile"?... This word means that Job sees himself as small and insignificant in comparison with God. He recognizes that he has been superficial in his judgment of things. The same word is translated as "light" and "lightly" in 1 Sam. 18: 23; "small" in Is. 49: 6; "trivial" in Ez. 8: 17. Neither the word itself nor the context signifies that Job is confessing that he is to be counted among the wicked. If you read chapters 38 to 41, in which God challenges Job, you will not find anything indicating God is finding fault with Job's loyalty or calling Job a wicked man. As stated before, it is highly significant that the last chapters deal with God's opening of Job's eyes not to Job's sinfulness but to God's power and wisdom. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2008 ...No, Job was keeping the letter of the law. Outwardly he was complying with the law. He had not secret sin, but it was not from God - it was self-produced! That would mean then that Job was a mere legalist up until the last chapter of the book. Yet this is belied by many statements found elsewhere throughout the book. There is nothing to indicate that Job would like to commit sin but refrains from doing so because of legalism. He hates sin because of his love for, and trust in, God. Job 1: 22 and 2: 10 portray Job as being loyal to God even under the pressure of having everything he loved destroyed, and despite being unable to understand why. Job 19: 25-27 are not the words of someone serving God legalistically but experientially and from the heart: "I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted May 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2008 If we would just all concede tha the story is an allegory it would solve our problems. :-) mel I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Quote: If we would just all concede that the story is an allegory it would solve our problems. :-) And what makes you think that this is just an allegory? I find nothing in Scripture that leads me to think that way. Genesis 30:18 "Leah....So she named him Issachar" Genesis 46:13 "The sons of Issachar: Tola, Puah, Jashub, and Shimron" Note on v.13 NIV, "Masoretic Text -- Job". King James Version reads "And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron". According to this, Job would have been the grandson of Jacob. He doubtless would have learned a few "tricks" from both Grandpa and his father, Isaachar about raising cattle and sheep. Until the drought came, Jacob had been a very wealthy man, and his sons would have benefited much from his counsel, and doubtless passed that on to their children. At the time of this story Job had married, and had 10 children who were now adults and had their own homes. It would appear that he had moved away from the "clan" and had moved to the land of Uz. Data provided by Josephus and Ptolemy locate Uz east of Palistine proper on the borders of the Arabian Desert, south of Damascus and probably in the vicinity of Edom. Shem, a son of Noah, also had a son named Uz who had settled there in early times. There is no reason to doubt the fact that this was a very real story. Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert [Now Elihu quotes Job] 9 ‘I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.' Elihu puts words in Job's mouth which Job never uttered....it is self-evident that Elihu cannot be depended on to quote Job accurately. He adds to Job's words things that Job neither uttered nor meant. Job 42:7 And it came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8 “Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has [i.e., after Job's confession].” 9 So (1) Eliphaz the Temanite and (2) Bildad the Shuhite and (3) Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job. Notice, according to the text, that Elihu is not included. Why? Because he was right - Job was self-righteous. I think it is you John that can't be trusted! Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted May 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo It was not sin that he repented of. He repented for speaking rashly. Let's see if your answer adds up.... Job repented for speaking "rashly", but not for sinning, right? If speaking "rashly" isn't sin then why repent? By the way, when was the last time you spoke "rashly" and then called yourself "vile" for doing so? So no, your answer is bogus. It doesn't add up. Come on Gerry...you can do better than that! How do heresies pop up? By ignoring what the Bible plainly says while looking for some fanciful bogus explanation. As Mel already mentioned, if Job were guilty of some sin, his suffering would not be problematic at all; he would only be getting what he deserved. You are ignoring Job's own confession as to what he was repenting of, i.e. speaking rashly out of ignorance. If you want to cling to your bogus, fanciful explanation, so be it. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin mccarty Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 Let's check that out a bit Beryl. The Job you speak of moved with Jacob's family to Egypt during the famine and settled in Goshen. He could have been one of the slaves and a contemporary of Moses who some believe to have been the author of the book of Job. Might have been a different "Job" don't you think? mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin mccarty Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I wrote you a private reply but you are over your limit on pm's and in the process all my work vanished into cyberspace. Help! mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.