What made Job "blameless" and "upright" before God?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

Elihu puts words in Job's mouth which Job never uttered....it is self-evident that Elihu cannot be depended on to quote Job accurately. He adds to Job's words things that Job neither uttered nor meant. [/quote']

Job 42:7 And it came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8 “Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has [i.e., after Job's confession].” 9 So (1) Eliphaz the Temanite and (2) Bildad the Shuhite and (3) Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job.

Not four man, but only three! Bildad, Zophar and Naamathite. Elihu was never included in that number - he was exempt. God's anger was never against Elihu. Hence we must conclude that Elihu was used by God to point out Job's problem. Clearly, according to Elihu, Job's problem was self-justification & self-righteousness.

Ellen White:

"...True love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived.....[size:17pt]Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

In the end Job did "abhor" his self-righteousness. He repented.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Job 42:7 And it came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8 “Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has [i.e., after Job's confession'].” 9 So (1) Eliphaz the Temanite and (2) Bildad the Shuhite and (3) Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job.

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ROBERT: Not four man, but only three! Bildad, Zophar and Naamathite. Elihu was never included in that number - he was exempt. God's anger was never against Elihu. Hence we must conclude that Elihu was used by God to point out Job's problem. Clearly, according to Elihu, Job's problem was self-justification & self-righteousness.

Elihu is wrong about Job. We don't learn the truth about Job until God speaks. We don't learn the truth about Job by studying what Elihu says. Job is not saying he is without sin. Job is saying his suffering is not due to sin. He is saying that he did not commit a grave sin that has caused God to punish him. He is saying that he is not a wicked man but a righteous person loyal to God. Job's three friends are saying that Job must have committed a sin that he is not revealing, and this is what Job is denying. He's not denying he's a sinner. In Job 13: 26; 14: 17; and 7: 20, 21, Job admits he's sinful.

Elihu misquotes Job. He says that Job has claimed to be sinless and more righteous than God Himself, yet nowhere in the book does Job say this. On the contrary, Elihu ignores Job's confession that he's been a sinner. Job says, "My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and You [God] cover my iniquity." These are not the words of someone claiming to be sinless.

I think it's mistake to assume that because God does not include Elihu among the ones for whom Job is to offer sacrifice, it means that everything Elihu says is true. (Job 34: 34-37 is an example of where Elihu speaks falsely.) At the end, God says Job, not Elihu, has spoken the truth about Him.

Yet it's true that Elihu's views are an improvement over the views of the other three friends. For instance, in Job 33: 23-30, Elihu does say that God allows suffering in order to teach spiritual lessons.

Quote:

Ellen White:

"...True love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived.....[size:17pt]Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

In the end Job did "abhor" his self-righteousness. He repented.

The Ellen White quote is true and accurate, but it is does not apply to Job's situation because Job's problem is not that thinks he is sinless.

Again, see, for instance, Job 13: 26; 14: 17; and 7: 20, 21.

God does not find fault with Job's character or loyalty, and He does not contradict Job's statement that he is a righteous and good man.

Is Job absolutely morally perfect or sinless? No, of course not, but that's not the issue or the question. The question is, Did Job serve God for the benefit he got out of such service? And the answer, demonstrated throughout the whole book, is no.

[LifeHiscost]

Re: post #170645 Thank you, Beryl, for that information. It's what I believed all along but it's nice to know where it can be verified.

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God's anger was never against Elihu. Hence we must conclude that Elihu was used by God to point out Job's problem. Clearly, according to Elihu, Job's problem was self-justification & self-righteousness.

Elihu is wrong about Job.

[Gerr]

Quote:

In the end Job did "abhor" his self-righteousness. He repented.

When a sinner acknowledges and confesses a sin, it is usually very specific. Show where Job ackenowledged and confessed the sin of self-righteousness.

On the contrary, here is exactly what he acknowledged and confessed:

[color:red]"Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,

things too wonderful for me,

which I did not know.

I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,

but now my eye sees you;

therefore I despise myself,

and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:3,5,6 ESV

Furthermore, the LORD rebuked Job's friends. WHY? If Job was not blameless and was guilty of sin as you contend, then his friends would have been correct. There would have been no reason for God to rebuke them. The fact is, the LORD rebuked his friends because they were in error for attributing sin to Job that he was not guilty of, just as you are doing now. They were doing the work of Satan, the ACCUSER of the the brethren. And frankly, that's what you are doing also, accusing believers of legalism and self-righteousness because they obey God out of love and gratitude.

Gerry

[Robert]

"Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand...."

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand...."

What did he utter over and over? I'm holy...I'm righteous...etc, etc. A mature believer would never brag of his performance because he knows he is not measuring up to God's agape love...never!

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Furthermore, the LORD rebuked Job's friends. WHY?

Gerry

He didn't rebuke Elihu! Why? Elihu hit the nail right on the head!

And where did God rebuke Job of self-righteousness? WHERE?

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What did he utter over and over? I'm holy...I'm righteous...etc' date=' etc. A mature believer would never brag of his performance because he knows he is not measuring up to God's agape love...never! [/quote']

The issue of the book is the suffering of the righteous. Job's "friends" believe that he must be a great sinner because of his great suffering. Therefore it only makes sense that Job would protest his innocence. He is not saying he's never sinned but rather that he is not a wicked man. And God confirms this. Job is not a wicked but a rightous man.

It's not a question in the instance of Job of whether he is measuring up to an absolute standard of righteousness. Job is not trying to earn salvation or earn God's favor. Job has a faith-based relationship with God.

Job isn't bragging! Job is agonizing under the unfair attacks of so-called friends who are supposed to be comforting him but who are in reality taking the side of Satan in accusing him of disloyalty to God.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But he wasn't innocent. He was self-righteous and the only way God could get his attention was to partially abandon him.

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What did he utter over and over? I'm holy...I'm righteous...etc' date=' etc. A mature believer would never brag of his performance because he knows he is not measuring up to God's agape love...never!

Quote:

Furthermore, the LORD rebuked Job's friends. WHY?

Gerry

He didn't rebuke Elihu! Why? Elihu hit the nail right on the head! [/quote']

And where did God rebuke Job of self-righteousness? WHERE?

Gerry

Through Elihu....That's why the first question God asks Job is,

"Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind: 'Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?'"

Had God counseled Job? Yes, through Elihu!

You guys have the evidence, but because of your traditional, legalistic mindset you refuse to advance in the light of truth. So be it.

Rob

[Woody]

Your are right Rob. And I thank you for so clearly laying it out. I have been blessed seeing it straight from the Word of God. Most have been presented with the traditional SDA approach so it is hard to switch beliefs when presented with the Word. But you have done a great job and I thank you. I've learned much from your clear presentations. Thank you.

[Gerr]

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Furthermore, the LORD rebuked Job's friends. WHY?

Gerry

He didn't rebuke Elihu! Why? Elihu hit the nail right on the head!

Using the argument from silence, i.e. God not rebuking Elihu is a dangerous proposition!

God did not rebuke Job's 3 friends because they spoke falsely ABOUT Job; but rather for speaking falsely ABOUT GOD. Here is God's testimony:

[color:red]"...the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer up a burnt offering tor yourselves. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly. For you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." Job 42:7,8 ESV.

So why was Elihu not rebuked? Not because he spoke the truth about Job, but because he made no foolish accusations that God was punishing Job for some secret sin.

Again, where did God rebuke Job for the sin of self-righteousness? By using Elihu? Why then did he not tell Job to go to Elihu and offer sacrifices for his sin and ask Elihu to pray for him the way He told Job's 3 friends to do?

Sin is a very very serious matter. When God rebukes someone of sin in the Bible, it is pointed and very explicit. Look at David. He sends Nathan the prophet to tell him, "You are the man!" He sends Samuel to Saul to tell him, "you have done foolishly."

Again, I say you are threading on dangerous ground by attributing sin to God's saint where God had made none and in fact clearly declared to be "blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil."

Gerry

[Robert]

Again, where did God rebuke Job for the sin of self-righteousness? By using Elihu?

[Robert]

So why was Elihu not rebuked? ....because he made no foolish accusations that God was punishing Job for some secret sin.

True, Elihu didn't make the same accusation as the other three, but he did charge Job with justifying himself before God, which is the same as being self-righteous.

"So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God ." [Job 32:1, 2 NIV]

Where did Elihu get this idea?

Job 13:18 Behold now, I have set my cause in order; I know that I am righteous. 19 Who is He that will contend with me? [RSV]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So why was Elihu not rebuked? ....because he made no foolish accusations that God was punishing Job for some secret sin.

True, Elihu didn't make the same accusation as the other three, but he did charge Job with justifying himself before God, which is the same as being self-righteous.

"So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God ." [Job 32:1, 2 NIV]

Where did Elihu get this idea?

Job 13:18 Behold now, I have set my cause in order; I know that I am righteous. 19 Who is He that will contend with me? [RSV]

1. If Job was guilty of sin, then his friends were correct. He is deserving of what he got and there would be no point to the story whatsoever.

2. Job was the one being falsely accused of sin, so it is natural that he would justify himself. If you were accused of a murder [i'm not saying that was his sin] you did not commit, you would be justifying yourself too.

3. Again I ask, where is Job's acknowledgment of the sin of self-righteousness?

4. Where is he asked to go to Elihu and offer a sacrifice and to have Elihu pray for him? Where?

Gerry

[Robert]

1. If Job was guilty of sin, then his friends were correct. He is deserving of what he got and there would be no point to the story whatsoever.

[Robert]

Let’s start again where Elihu begins to rebuke Job:

32:1 THEN these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, because he justified himself before God.

Did Elihu have the same argument of the other three men? No! Drop down to verse 14:

“But Job has not marshaled his words against me, and I will not answer him with your arguments.”

Elihu was moved by the Spirit of God to rebuke Job:

Verse 18: “For I am full of words; The Spirit within me constrains me.”

Job 33:8 [Elihu to Job] “But you have said in my hearing—I heard the very words—9 ‘I am pure and without sin; I am clean and free from guilt.'”

God’s Spirit has put His finger on Job's problem. Job is not living a immoral life as the previous three men suggested, but Job does have a problem and that is that Job is self-righteous!