Robert Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Now I understand that God is not limited to the Bible, but He has chosen this as His major line of communication. This, in my thinkng, presents a number of problems: The first one is that most folks throughout the world do not own a Bible. The second one is that the Bible is highly interpretive. For example many folks here on CA can see things very differently, yet they are using the same book (Bible).... Let's discuss this. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2008 The use of the written Word as the exclusive test of doctrine and as more important than the Word found in creation and the ministrations of the Holy Spirit is by no means universal to Christianity. It is something inherited from some forms of Judaism and augmented by a Scholastic approach to proving truths from texts, but I just wanted to get the idea into this discussion that although God did choose to speak through Scripture it's not uncontroversial or unproblematic to state that that is his *primary* revelation. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2008 The use of the written Word as the exclusive test of doctrine and as more important than the Word found in creation and the ministrations of the Holy Spirit is by no means universal to Christianity. It is something inherited from some forms of Judaism and augmented by a Scholastic approach to proving truths from texts, The concept is taught in the Bible itself, isn't it? Quote: but I just wanted to get the idea into this discussion that although God did choose to speak through Scripture it's not uncontroversial or unproblematic to state that that is his *primary* revelation. Virtually nothing today is uncontroversial or unproblematic, somewhere. God's revelation comes from four sources: the Bible, nature, the Holy Spirit, and those rare instances of angels, God or Christ reportedly appearing personally, as in the cases of Bible prophets and Joseph Smith. Which of those four would you say is "primary," if any? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2008 Now I understand that God is not limited to the Bible, but He has chosen this as His major line of communication. This, in my thinkng, presents a number of problems: The first one is that most folks throughout the world do not own a Bible. But most people today can access a Bible if they really want to read it. The fact is that even in those areas of the world where the Bible is common, the vast majority of people don't read it or pay any serious attention to it. The question you bring up--about people who do not own a Bible-- is partially answered by the preaching of the word. It also applies to the many millions who are illiterate, etc. Quote: The second one is that the Bible is highly interpretive. For example many folks here on CA can see things very differently, yet they are using the same book (Bible).... One reason is that God honors our freedom of choice. Choice is related to how we understand the Bible. There are cases where people do not want to know the truth, and God does not force them to know it if they don't want it. Also, not all people are at the same point spiritually, or have the same maturity as students of the word, so it is only natural that some are going to see it differently than others. Even fairly simple statements are liable to misinterpretation by some people. One way to know this is to give a class a piece of writing and ask them to explain their understanding of what it says. You would get many, even contradictory, responses. This is not necessarily related to any complexity in the writing. It has to do with the fact that people have various levels of comprehension, and knowledge, and that they also all come to it with different experiences and preconceptions. A third reason for seeing the Bible differently is that not everyone is approaching it with the same attitude or with the same principles of interpretation. Some people are resistant to what the Bible is saying or haven't asked the Holy Spirit to guide their thinking as they study. These are some of the reasons for the differences in the way people interpret the Bible, and many more could be given. None of them are owing to God's having made the Bible difficult to understand. Language can't be written in such a way that it won't be misinterpreted, or won't be interpreted in different ways, if someone wants to do it. This is what makes law and literature, to say nothing of RELIGIOUS STUDIES, always interesting. God could come personally to every individual and compel them to face the fact of His existence as well as the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. He doesn't operate that way because that would be to take away people's freedom to choose whether to believe or not. He doesn't want people to believe in Him because they MUST believe. Whether a person believes-- and what he believes-- has also, and in an ultimate sense, to do with the state of a person's character and heart. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Allan Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Now I understand that God is not limited to the Bible, but He has chosen this as His major line of communication. This, in my thinkng, presents a number of problems: The first one is that most folks throughout the world do not own a Bible. The second one is that the Bible is highly interpretive. For example many folks here on CA can see things very differently, yet they are using the same book (Bible).... Important observations, Robert. And a thoughtful person who is concerned about reality must consider them. 1. Many people do not own a Bible, some use the Bagavahd Gita. Some use the Quran, and some follow the Tao. Great truths reside in all these. 2. There is disagreement among all of these users within their own group about their own scriptures, I assume. The only way to avoid it is to accept the authority of someone else. Like the Pope. The problem is everyone wants to be a Pope! (Why? but that is a different question. ) /dAb Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 21, 2008 Author Share Posted June 21, 2008 None of them are owing to God's having made the Bible difficult to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Quote: God's revelation comes from four sources: the Bible, nature, the Holy Spirit, and those rare instances of angels, God or Christ reportedly appearing personally, as in the cases of Bible prophets and Joseph Smith. Since you added Smith to the list, shouldn't all the other modern day prophets be added too? Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Quote: I believe God takes us where we are at...wrong assumptions...wrong interpretations, and he works with us individually. Surely it's not salvation by theology? In that case we are all lost because none of us knows it all.... Exactly. A very good point. We may all have different understandings of God and of the Bible .... but we are still saved by the blood. This is why that even the issue of the Sabbath is not the key to our salvation. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2008 Quote: God's revelation comes from four sources: the Bible, nature, the Holy Spirit, and those rare instances of angels, God or Christ reportedly appearing personally, as in the cases of Bible prophets and Joseph Smith. Since you added Smith to the list, shouldn't all the other modern day prophets be added too? I added Smith to the list because Smith claimed that Jesus Christ personally appeared to him and gave him directions. He says this in regard to Sunday being "the Lord's day," in Doctrine and Covenants 59:12. Question: how do we know God did not do this? Can we know or be sure Jesus Christ said no such thing? I didn't, of course, intend for the list of these occurrences to be exhaustive. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted June 21, 2008 Members Share Posted June 21, 2008 Quote: Question: how do we know God did not do this? Can we know or be sure Jesus Christ said no such thing? I don't think there is a way to *know* - one must use the concept of faith and belief in what one chooses to believe...... the man is dead so we cannot question him or use a sophisticated lie-detector test on him (that would be interesting for a lot of "modern day prophets") Just imho Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2008 "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." Heb 1:1,2 ESV So God's revelation was certainly not limited to the Bible. The Bible happens to be the record/compilation of these many different revelations. If you think that the subjectivity of Bible interpretation is problematic enough, think what depending on the Holy Spirit alone for revelation would do. Without a rule/canon/supreme revelation by which we judge all others, then everyman/spirit becomes a rule/standard unto himself. Look at our Constitution. Nine experts of the law can read the same document and vote/interpret it 5:4 one way or ther other. Why the discrepancy? 1) Perhaps the text is genuinely not sufficiently clear on a certain issue. 2) Our differing backgrounds will no doubt color our understanding of any passage. We misunderstand each other even while talking to each other face to face. 3) In some/many cases, we make conclusions before all the information in the Book has been exhausted. 4) I have no doubt that there are also those who already have an agenda/preconceived notion and are just looking for something in the Book to back it up. 5) Inertia/tradition. It was good enough for my pappy, it's good enough for me. 6) Some may be looking for something novel, something different, not necessarily the truth. They refuse to take the Bible just as it reads; they refuse to accept the plain sense of what the Scripture is saying. 7) Some rule of Biblical interpretation has been broken. 8) If one ignores/disobeys truth already known, I doubt that such a person will be receiving further light until that truth is obeyed. Therefore, any further study that that person pursues, will more than likely lead to further confusion. I do believe what Jesus said: "If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God..." Jn 7:17 ESV Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2008 It's true what you say, that we can't use a sophisticated lie-detector on Joseph Smith to find out if he was telling the truth. I have no doubt that Joseph Smith would have passed such a test if given to him, anyway, because he almost certainly believed that Jesus appeared to him. (By the way, I'm not implying that everything Joseph Smith said was the truth; only that I believe someone did appear to him and claim to be Christ.) But hasn't God provided us with a kind of lie-detector, one that in some ways is even more dependable and certain than the modern, electrical, scientific type? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2008 Quote: God could come personally to every individual and compel them to face the fact of His existence as well as the fact that the Bible is the Word of God. He came to Abram, just to mention one. Was that compulsion? No, because Abram, like Noah, wanted to believe and wanted to do God's will to begin with. The pre-converted Paul also was honest at heart and wanted to do God's will; otherwise, it is apparent that God would not have chosen him as His messenger. My point is that God doesn't force people to believe in Him. If He did, He could make everyone become a believer today simply by appearing to each one and proving without question that He is all-powerful. But God doesn't want to be accepted or worshipped simply because of His overwhelming power. People would then serve and believe in Him out of fear and because they have no choice. I believe that is one important reason that God always allows people to doubt if they choose to. He never seems to box people in in such a way that they cannot wriggle their way out of truth if they want to. I believe that is due to God's respect for our freedom of choice and our individuality. He does not require that we all come to a knowledge of the truth at the same rate or in the same way. Quote: ...I believe God takes us where we are at...wrong assumptions...wrong interpretations, and he works with us individually. Surely it's not salvation by theology? In that case we are all lost because none of us knows it all.... Yes, I agree especially with the first part of this statement. He does work patiently and individually with us, starting with where we are. If He didn't, there'd be no hope for any of us. I believe you're right that it is not salvation by theology; yet our knowledge of God-- the doctrines we believe in or do not believe in-- unquestionably informs and greatly influences our spiritual experience and our trust in God. If we believe some false doctrines and refuse to give them up in favor of truth as God reveals it to us, the false teachings can lead us down the wrong way and eventually result in our being lost. Case in point: Galatians 1-- do we believe the angels or messengers who preach a false gospel? Another: Was Jesus the Messiah and did He actually rise from the dead? It is easy to see how our understanding of these teachings, or theologies, could affect our salvation. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: Amelia Quote: God's revelation comes from four sources: the Bible, nature, the Holy Spirit, and those rare instances of angels, God or Christ reportedly appearing personally, as in the cases of Bible prophets and Joseph Smith. Since you added Smith to the list, shouldn't all the other modern day prophets be added too? I added Smith to the list because Smith claimed that Jesus Christ personally appeared to him and gave him directions. He says this in regard to Sunday being "the Lord's day," in Doctrine and Covenants 59:12. Question: how do we know God did not do this? Can we know or be sure Jesus Christ said no such thing? I didn't, of course, intend for the list of these occurrences to be exhaustive. Okey Doke tu Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry D Thomas Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 It's only fair to point out that we choose--either because of what we've read, or what we've been told, or what we feel--to believe that the Bible is the word of God. We have no objective proof of that. We read the words there and hear a message from God. Others read the same words and hear a different message, or no message at all. We might wish that the Bible could be the final word on truth and issues of right and wrong, but we can't escape the fact that the ultimate arbiter of truth and meaning in the human experience is always the human mind. Whatever we read on the pages of Scripture or hear taught or preached is filtered through our own understanding and experience. Many of us choose to allow another--a pastor or parental figure--to tell us what is true and what is important, to interpret Scripture for us. Many of us choose to read and try to understand the Bible ourselves. In either case, we assign meaning to those principles and try to live them in our own lives. But I think we're treading on thin ice when we declare that our understanding of truth is normative for everyone at all times. We see "through a glass, darkly," at best. The Scripture as it has been repeated, written down, edited, translated, copied, interpreted, and applied reveals a glimpse a Being beyond human language and human understanding. We can rejoice in the message of hope and love that we find in those words. We can derive personal--life changing--meaning from its stories and teachings. We can share the hope and significance of those truths as we see them. But I think we should be very cautious about judging the actions and motives of others by the understanding that we have chosen to accept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 It's only fair to point out that we choose--either because of what we've read, or what we've been told, or what we feel--to believe that the Bible is the word of God. We have no objective proof of that. We read the words there and hear a message from God. Others read the same words and hear a different message, or no message at all. We might wish that the Bible could be the final word on truth and issues of right and wrong, but we can't escape the fact that the ultimate arbiter of truth and meaning in the human experience is always the human mind. Whatever we read on the pages of Scripture or hear taught or preached is filtered through our own understanding and experience. Many of us choose to allow another--a pastor or parental figure--to tell us what is true and what is important, to interpret Scripture for us. Many of us choose to read and try to understand the Bible ourselves. In either case, we assign meaning to those principles and try to live them in our own lives. But I think we're treading on thin ice when we declare that our understanding of truth is normative for everyone at all times. We see "through a glass, darkly," at best. The Scripture as it has been repeated, written down, edited, translated, copied, interpreted, and applied reveals a glimpse a Being beyond human language and human understanding. We can rejoice in the message of hope and love that we find in those words. We can derive personal--life changing--meaning from its stories and teachings. We can share the hope and significance of those truths as we see them. But I think we should be very cautious about judging the actions and motives of others by the understanding that we have chosen to accept. This is absolutely the very best summary of this topic that I have heard. How true. Thank you for putting this is such a clear and concise way. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 24, 2008 ...We might wish that the Bible could be the final word on truth and issues of right and wrong, but we can't escape the fact that the ultimate arbiter of truth and meaning in the human experience is always the human mind.... (1) Is the Bible the Word of God? (2) Do we accept the Word of God-- or do we accept human reasoning-- as the ultimate arbiter of truth? Eve chose to accept human reasoning. Christ chose to accept the Word of God. Which do we choose? Do I choose to go the way of my own thinking or do I choose to go the way that the Bible teaches? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted June 25, 2008 Author Share Posted June 25, 2008 Do we accept the Word of God-- or do we accept human reasoning-- as the ultimate arbiter of truth? It's still based on your interpretation..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Exactly. And MY reasoning is Spirit lead ... the rest of you have 'human' reasoning. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 Is there any right interpretation or are all interpretations equally correct? Does the Bible speak clearly or is it all more or less unclear? Does it all boil down to matters of opinion? Does God call us to follow human opinion, or His authoritative Word? The question was asked before: can anyone know for sure that someone did not get a message from Jesus or from one of the disciples that the Sabbath is now Sunday? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 Does the fact that it was Jesus' mind and character that led him to trust God's Word rather than human reasoning, mean that Jesus was ultimately putting His trust in human reasoning? What did Jesus trust-- human reasoning or the promises and commandments of God? Or are they one and the same thing? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 >>What did Jesus trust-- human reasoning or the promises and commandments of God?<< Jesus? Gd? Gd – Jesus? Do I err in perceiving a bit of circularity...? >>Or are they one and the same thing?<< Oh, okay. At least there may exist a similitude, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 John - the point you're missing is that there is one inescapable leap of human reasoning: you must decide for yourself that the Bible is the Word of God. Without that decision, you can't make it your guide. You might, after making that decision, subordinate all human reasoning to the Bible (though I'd argue that everyone still applies reasoning in coming to understand the Bible - hence the many different interpretations), but the complete abnegation of human reasoning you're trying to explain misses the point Jerry made about at least having to reasonably decide that the Bible is God's Word. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 I'm using the same language as the New Testament uses when it speaks of Jesus' trust of God the Father. It is not, of course, a denial that Jesus is a member of the Trinity or that He is God. But the question is whether Jesus decided to trust human reasoning or whether he decided to trust the promises and commandments of God. It seems to me that the answer is very clear. He obeyed God's commandments whereas Eve decided to follow human reasoning. Today it's common to believe that one should follow human reasoning and make that the measure of what's right and wrong. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 I'm not missing that point. I thought that is assumed in any discussion of the subject of the relation between faith and reason. Yes, certainly the brain is involved in deciding whether to trust the Bible. However, that is something altogether different from saying we are going to trust the word of God rather than human reasoning. What do we do, for instance, when there is a conflict between human reasoning and the testimony of the Bible? And is there objective evidence that the Bible is true and the Word of God? Or are we dependent totally upon our subjective feelings and opinions? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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