LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Can we know or be sure Jesus Christ said no such thing? We probably cannot say for sure that Joseph Smith did not hear what he said he heard. However I believe we can be sure it wasn't Jesus who told him Sunday was the Lord's day. "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God" Exodus 20:10 KJV "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man" Mark 2:27 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I don't think there is a way to *know* Just imho It would seem to depend on whether one believes the Holy Bible is the Word. "[My purpose is] that you may know the full truth and understand with certainty and security against error the accounts (histories) and doctrines of the faith of which you have been informed and in which you have been orally instructed." Luke 1:4 AMP "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine..." John 7:17 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 But I think we should be very cautious about judging the actions and motives of others by the understanding that we have chosen to accept. About the judging of actions and motives of others, I'm in agreement wholeheartedly. About choosing the right as Jesus reveals it to us, if we don't know it (the Truth) in times of comparitive security, it's unlikely we will choose correctly in a moment of crisis such as the evidence of Jesus coming for us personally. " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." John 15:16 NASB "God is my strong Fortress; He guides the blameless in His way and sets him free." 2 Samuel 22:33 AMP Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Exactly. And MY reasoning is Spirit lead ... the rest of you have 'human' reasoning. The child of God has no valid reason for considering themselves in competition with any other person's direction from God. If we are secure in our own walk with the Saviour, why would we wish to jeopardise our eternal fortunes based upon the supposed word of a faulty human being. Is it not enough to be secure in Jesus' direction to us personally? "He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake." Psalm 23:3 NASB "In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear...flesh... " Psalm 56:4 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 at least having to reasonably decide that the Bible is God's Word. "...For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace...." Hebrews 13:9 KJV "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Quote: The second one is that the Bible is highly interpretive. For example many folks here on CA can see things very differently, yet they are using the same book (Bible).... I would suggest that it is not the Bible which is interpretive, rather it is often those who wish the Bible to say that which will be most convenient for their personal lifestyle. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" 2 Timothy 4:3 KJV "Knowing this first, that no prophecy (declared will and purpose) of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20 KJV AMP Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Correct, however, it is an indication of our desire to honor and glorify God and will determine the rewards received in the kingdom. "And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it." Isaiah 58:12-14 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Quote: The second one is that the Bible is highly interpretive. For example many folks here on CA can see things very differently, yet they are using the same book (Bible).... I would suggest that it is not the Bible which is interpretive, rather it is often those who wish the Bible to say that which will be most convenient for their personal lifestyle. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" 2 Timothy 4:3 KJV "Knowing this first, that no prophecy (declared will and purpose) of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20 KJV AMP Regards! I completely agree with you. Just for the record, let it be noted that I didn't make the above comment about the Bible being "highly interpretive." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 ...But I think we're treading on thin ice when we declare that our understanding of truth is normative for everyone at all times. We see "through a glass, darkly," at best. The Scripture as it has been repeated, written down, edited, translated, copied, interpreted, and applied reveals a glimpse a Being beyond human language and human understanding. We can rejoice in the message of hope and love that we find in those words. We can derive personal--life changing--meaning from its stories and teachings. We can share the hope and significance of those truths as we see them. But I think we should be very cautious about judging the actions and motives of others by the understanding that we have chosen to accept. Based on the Bible's teaching and comparing it with what Joseph Smith taught, can we be certain Joseph Smith did not teach the truth when he said that Jesus told him Sunday is the new Sabbath under the New Covenant (D & C 59: 12)? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry D Thomas Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 When it comes to understanding God, we are all stuck with the same limitation: we have human brains. God is not a super-human or an ultra-human. He is something else entirely, something alien. We refer to God as "He," as "Lord," as "King," because that's the best parallel human minds in days gone by could come up with to describe how God relates to humans. Whether God speaks to us audibly, in writing, or through other means, we have to interpret that with our human brains. Humans brains are limited. They are greatly influenced by their own experiences and perceptions. They change, they adapt, they grow. The truth I explain to a child about why the moon shines at night is very different than the truth I explain to college students. So "Truth" as human beings could understand it in 2000 BC, in 1000 BC, in 100 AD, and today are very different things; not just astronomical, geographical, or biological truth, but spiritual truth as well. For example, the 10 Commandments were given to establish that this God was superior to the gods of the other tribes--regardles of how we interpret it today, to the Hebrews, it said, "Put Me before all other gods," not "I'm the only real God." That truth developed later, as humans were able to understand it. Scripture bears the marks of editing and rewriting as truths were understood. God was working with human brains that developed slowly. He worked with those who wrote Scripture just as He works with those who read it. There is not an objective definition of truth untouched by the weakness of developing human brains. Because there is not, I must assume that God does not require one to relate to humans. He allows for the variation of human development over the centuries of human existence and the decades of a human's life. If God allows that, then I must allow the possibility that my understanding of truth, while meaningful for me, may not be what others understand with their human brains. I cannot condemn them for grasping a different aspect of a "God" and a "Truth" that I cannot possibly wrap my human mind around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 Quote: When it comes to understanding God, we are all stuck with the same limitation: we have human brains. God is not a super-human or an ultra-human. He is something else entirely, something alien. We refer to God as "He," as "Lord," as "King," because that's the best parallel human minds in days gone by could come up with to describe how God relates to humans. Whether God speaks to us audibly, in writing, or through other means, we have to interpret that with our human brains. Humans brains are limited. They are greatly influenced by their own experiences and perceptions. They change, they adapt, they grow. The truth I explain to a child about why the moon shines at night is very different than the truth I explain to college students. So "Truth" as human beings could understand it in 2000 BC, in 1000 BC, in 100 AD, and today are very different things; not just astronomical, geographical, or biological truth, but spiritual truth as well. For example, the 10 Commandments were given to establish that this God was superior to the gods of the other tribes--regardles of how we interpret it today, to the Hebrews, it said, "Put Me before all other gods," not "I'm the only real God." That truth developed later, as humans were able to understand it. The situation as you describe it here hasn't changed since the beginning, and was no different in the times of Daniel, Jesus and Paul. Quote: Scripture bears the marks of editing and rewriting as truths were understood. God was working with human brains that developed slowly. He worked with those who wrote Scripture just as He works with those who read it. There is not an objective definition of truth untouched by the weakness of developing human brains. Because there is not, I must assume that God does not require one to relate to humans. He allows for the variation of human development over the centuries of human existence and the decades of a human's life. If God allows that, then I must allow the possibility that my understanding of truth, while meaningful for me, may not be what others understand with their human brains. I cannot condemn them for grasping a different aspect of a "God" and a "Truth" that I cannot possibly wrap my human mind around. Given your understanding, do you believe we can be certain that Joseph Smith is wrong when he claims that an angel from God revealed to him that Sunday is the Sabbath under the New Covenant? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Can we know or be sure Jesus Christ said no such thing? We probably cannot say for sure that Joseph Smith did not hear what he said he heard. However I believe we can be sure it wasn't Jesus who told him Sunday was the Lord's day. I totally agree with you, LIFE. The reason I asked the question is to know whether we as "the people of the Book" still believe it is valid to apply Isaiah 8: 20 and other, similar Bible tests to distinguish truth from error. I believe we definitely can. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 >>Today it's common to believe that one should follow human reasoning and make that the measure of what's right and wrong.<< I agree that “human reasoning” should not be the sine qua non vis-à-vis Writ. That said, human ‘reasoning’ is intrinsic to human thought processes. I go back to the dichotomy of the sixth commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” (the other numeration noted); does the doctrinally inspired ‘conscientious objector’ perceive its truest intent? or is it the person taking up arms for the defense of family, home, and State who more correctly defines the intent of that commandment? I propose that the issue is one of personal conviction with no one having the absolute truth of the matter. After all, it seems evident as Jesus Christ said that He is with us always; and, moreover, the HS indwells us. Human ‘reasoning’ is intrinsic to the Xtian/Gd union of thought processes. “Come, let us reason...” Should all things Biblical be in colours absolutely black or white, the matter of Faith per se – is diminished, proportionately. Per the “promises and commandments” of Gd, Jesus Christ reinterpreted or reconstructed their ‘strictest reading’. In other words, He introduced an elasticity to them (human reasoning?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Quote: Quote: The second one is that the Bible is highly interpretive. For example many folks here on CA can see things very differently, yet they are using the same book (Bible) >>I would suggest that it is not the Bible which is interpretive, rather it is often those who wish the Bible to say that which will be most convenient for their personal lifestyle.<< The qualifier duly noted, the question still obtains – is the above the voice of the pejorative? or is this the voice of insularity? "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears" 2 Timothy 4:3 KJV And we know that the “time” has now “come”? And here, I’d thought the peculiar symptoms re my ears exhibited signs of allergy – soya products, mebbe? [/kiddinnggg] "Knowing this first, that no prophecy (declared will and purpose) of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20 KJV AMP And we know that it is the ‘other’ person who privately interprets, yes? Gd forbid that it is a thing most often practiced by – our very own selves! Say what!? --Pogo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Thanks Jasd ... some good comments. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2008 >>Today it's common to believe that one should follow human reasoning and make that the measure of what's right and wrong.<< I agree that “human reasoning” should not be the sine qua non vis-à-vis Writ. That said, human ‘reasoning’ is intrinsic to human thought processes. Yes, of course. That is a given in any discussion of faith and reason. No one is denying the use of the brain. But that is not the central question in the subject. It comes down to the meaning of what Paul said, "We walk by faith, not by sight." 1 Cor. 5: 7. The question may be illustrated in this way: If human reasoning tells me that there is nothing wrong with being gay, but the Bible says that God condemns that lifestyle--- do I go by the Bible or by my human reason? Again, if my human reasoning tells me that the resurrection of the dead is not possible, but the Bible tells me in no uncertain way that it is certain to happen-- do I trust the Bible and distrust my human reasoning on this point? And lastly, if my human experience is that my mother's spirit visited me and talked with me, yet the Bible tells me that it was not her--- do I believe my own experience, or do I accept the testimony of the Bible? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry D Thomas Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 Given your understanding, do you believe we can be certain that Joseph Smith is wrong when he claims that an angel from God revealed to him that Sunday is the Sabbath under the New Covenant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 26, 2008 Given your understanding, do you believe we can be certain that Joseph Smith is wrong when he claims that an angel from God revealed to him that Sunday is the Sabbath under the New Covenant. Quote: I am convinced myself that Joseph Smith was wrong, but there is no objective proof of that. This is the problem with revelation,either real or imagined: it is a subjective experience. Does the Bible give us any objective way of determining what is truth? Is it all subjective, depending completely on changeable emotions and opinions? I would like to know what convinces you that Joseph Smith was wrong. What would you say is basis of your view? Quote: But consider this: from an outsider's perspective, what is the difference between Joseph's Smith's claim that an angel spoke to him and Ellen White's claim that angels conveyed God's revelations to her? Without question, Mormons think that Joseph Smith really did have communication with an angel. That's to be expected or else they would not be Mormons. But when you talk to them about the facts in the case, and show them the problems involved in belief in the Book of Mormon and in Joseph Smith, many of them come to see that they have believed a lie. Quote: We choose to believe Ellen White's claims. We find them in harmony with our understanding of the Bible. Those who follow Joseph Smith find his teachings to be in harmony with their understanding of the Bible. Yes, of course. But that understanding of the Bible, like the understanding of Muslims, is not a true understanding of all of God's Word. Both Muslims and Mormons base their belief about the Bible on many misconceptions, such as that the Bible has been distorted so that it can no longer be trusted and so that it no longer teaches the truth of God. So their preconceptions of the Bible are based on falsehoods. I've been carrying on an exchange with a Mormon man for almost a year now and am enjoying getting to know him personally and learning a lot about his understanding of the Bible and of all the primary Mormon books. Quote: I am not arguing that every belief system is equally valid. I'm suggesting that adherents to every belief system choose to believe that way and are convinced that they are correct while all others are wrong. We have reasoned out our doctrines and believe that they are the most true to the Scripture. But it's only fair to recognize that others feel exactly the same way about their belief systems. Of course we understand that they believe they are right. I think most people believe they are right. Satanists believe they are right. That is nothing. But are they right? Are we right? Can we know what is right? Do we firmly believe that we know the truth or have we as a church reached a point where we believe we are simply going by subjective opinion and have nothing firmer than that? Quote: I think we should focus less on being right, and more on the difference our beliefs make in our lives and in the lives of those around us. The Bible teaches that both are important, as I'm sure you'd agree. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 And we know that it is the ‘other’ person who privately interprets, yes? Gd forbid that it is a thing most often practiced by – our very own selves! Say what!? --Pogo I have expressed an opinion on occasion, the sin we see the clearest in others is often the sin most troublesome to ourselves. However the fact remains we are called to warn others of the sin, not to compete or sit in judgement, whether or not it reveals our own weakness. "And [Peter] solemnly and earnestly witnessed (testified) and admonished (exhorted) with much more continuous speaking and warned (reproved, advised, encouraged) them, saying, Be saved from this crooked (perverse, wicked, unjust) generation." Acts 2:40 AMP "Now also we beseech you, brethren, get to know those who labor among you [recognize them for what they are, acknowledge and appreciate and respect them all]--your leaders who are over you in the Lord and those who warn and kindly reprove and exhort you." 1 Thessalonians 5:12 AMP "...and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons," MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD,NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;" Hebrews 12:5 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted June 26, 2008 Do you have an alternative in mind? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 >>However the fact remains we are called to warn others of the sin, not to compete or sit in judgement, whether or not it reveals our own weakness.<, The above is well and good; however, the subject was “private interpretation” with the rejoinder being... Quote: Quote:jasdAnd we know that it is the ‘other’ person who privately interprets, yes? The verses proffered seemed to have been selected to encourage censure. Let me forward another text: Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Should the King be the only one apprehending the “thing” or “matter” – how then might that correlate with Quote: Quote:LifeHisCost"Knowing this first, that no prophecy (declared will and purpose) of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20 KJV AMP ? One supposes that Proverbs 25:2 suggests a more elliptical approach to the matter of “private interpretation”, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 >>However the fact remains we are called to warn others of the sin, not to compete or sit in judgement, whether or not it reveals our own weakness.<, The above is well and good; however, the subject was “private interpretation” with the rejoinder being... Quote: Quote:jasdAnd we know that it is the ‘other’ person who privately interprets, yes? (1) The verses proffered seemed to have been selected to encourage censure. This was meant to assure the seeker after truth that if 'their interpretation' was different than another's, it would still be left to the Spirit of God within the soul, which Spirit guides into all truth, to determine the application, if any, for the individual seeker. Let me forward another text: (2) Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. Should the King be the only one apprehending the “thing” or “matter” – how then might that correlate with. Quote: Quote:LifeHisCost"Knowing this first, that no prophecy (declared will and purpose) of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20 KJV AMP Again I can only suggest that the final summation would reveal truth only after the Holy Spirit reveals it to be true according to the Word and in character with the Love of the Father. ? (3) One supposes that Proverbs 25:2 suggests a more elliptical approach to the matter of “private interpretation”, yes? If you are referring to an obscure approach it seems certain to me, taking into consideration the uniqueness of every individual's present needs, the many reasons why God might present His Word at any particular time, would have to be dependent upon how each separate individual is able to receive the Love of God I probably don't understand fully what your point is but have offered what explanation I can to those underlined portions of your response that appear to be your greatest concern, as I understand it. I apologize for any confusion brought about by my personal incompetency. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 >>If you are referring to an obscure approach...<<< Given, the corrupted nature (imho) of so much of the doctrines and dogmas as prevalent among the many differing .orgs, I suggest that one may be well-advised to seek the “obscure approach”. It is said that at times the Lord reveals Himself in a still small voice – rather than through the noise of organized religiosity. >>...it seems certain to me, taking into consideration the uniqueness of every individual's present needs, the many reasons why God might present His Word at any particular time, would have to be dependent upon how each separate individual is able to receive the Love of God.<< [ed.jasd] Or, mebbe, as Writ reveals the “Love of God” – to all and particular individuals. >>I probably don't understand fully what your point is but have offered what explanation I can to those underlined portions of your response that appear to be your greatest concern, as I understand it.<< No great concerns... just trying to be clinically adversarial. Aspects of the matter, if you will. >>I apologize for any confusion...<< I’ve been reading your posts for a few years now and have a fair reading of your position – and respect it. There is no need for an apology for posting, as you perceive issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 just trying to be clinically adversarial. I’ve been reading your posts for a few years now and have a fair reading of your position – and respect it. Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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